Complete Brake Failure -- Thanks Toyota!

[dpr422]

Our 15 yr old daughter was using our 4R at driving school this week. During the driving portion of the class the brakes on the 4R completely failed - she had to ram the stick into Park to avoid hitting another student. My guess is that the Master Brake Cylinder failed.... The parking brake might have been a better answer, but I was just happy she stopped the car.

Two years ago we informed our local dealer about an oscillating sound that we noticed in the engine compartment. The dealer said the car was getting old and it was nothing to worry about. Earlier this year, they said the ABS was failing, but would not affect the braking system. They did change the thermostat thinking this was the problem - what a joke. They did say that if the ABS fails, we would need to fix it or get rid of the car. I called Toyota CC about this and they said the same thing.... The ABS and Braking systems are not connected - the brakes will work fine without the ABS.

Well, it only has 65k miles on it and it blew me away that the brakes completely failed. The good news is that no one was hurt... I cannot imagine if this had happened on the highway...

And no, the floor mats were not the problem! It was a complete mechanical failure!

Thanks Toyota! Really appreciate the fine advice!

 

[bluemarlin04]

Sounds like operator error and someone who doesn't understand mechanical systems. Brakes just don't all of sudden "fail". I'd start with the driver to figure out the problem.

 

[Qjake]

So as far back as 2 years you knew you had a brake issue? And more recently you confirmed that the ABS was having an issue? But you took the dealerships word for it that you'd be fine and then let your 15 y/o drive the vehicle knowing full well it had brake issues? And now, years later, you're pointing the finger at Toyota?? Hmm, i'm thinking you should be looking in the mirror!! :rockthrow:

 

[Qjake]

Sounds like operator error and someone who doesn't understand mechanical systems. Brakes just don't all of sudden "fail". I'd start with the driver to figure out the problem.

Really? Blame the 15y/o who is just learning to drive? And how would she know what bad brakes are she doesn't even know how to use them yet. :bash:

 

[20034RunnerV84x2]

Sell it to someone who will car for it and fix the problems. Pointing fingers and whining and *****ing about Toyota isn't going to solve a inexperienced driver behind the wheel. :rant:

 

[2007toyota4runners]

Sounds like operator error and someone who doesn't understand mechanical systems. Brakes just don't all of sudden "fail". I'd start with the driver to figure out the problem.

im sure stomping on the pedal and nothing happening is not operator error

 

[Quentin]

Has a mechanic looked at the car yet? What ACTUALLY failed?

 

[4Running Daily]

Has a mechanic looked at the car yet? What ACTUALLY failed?

Multiple Brain Cells.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Our 15 yr old daughter was using our 4R at driving school this week. During the driving portion of the class the brakes on the 4R completely failed - she had to ram the stick into Park to avoid hitting another student. My guess is that the Master Brake Cylinder failed.... The parking brake might have been a better answer, but I was just happy she stopped the car.

Two years ago we informed our local dealer about an oscillating sound that we noticed in the engine compartment. The dealer said the car was getting old and it was nothing to worry about. Earlier this year, they said the ABS was failing, but would not affect the braking system. They did change the thermostat thinking this was the problem - what a joke. They did say that if the ABS fails, we would need to fix it or get rid of the car. I called Toyota CC about this and they said the same thing.... The ABS and Braking systems are not connected - the brakes will work fine without the ABS.

Well, it only has 65k miles on it and it blew me away that the brakes completely failed. The good news is that no one was hurt... I cannot imagine if this had happened on the highway...

And no, the floor mats were not the problem! It was a complete mechanical failure!

Thanks Toyota! Really appreciate the fine advice!

I don't have all the information on your interactions with the Dealer or Customer Care, so I cannot say on either account what was said or what was done properly or improperly. But according to your statement you are just as responsible in the matter as Toyota and its representatives are in the matter.

You have had concerns and issues brought up about the braking system as far back as 2 years. Now, again I am not sure what the exact communications between you and your dealership have been so I cannot exactly say who is right or wrong. But according to what you have said, they did notify you of a potential issue that needed to be taken care of, you refused service on multiple accounts. The way they intoned this information was a little too vauge in your description for what i think the Dealer or Customer Care should have done.

To answer your question; it is very important that you address any and all issues related to core safety features of the vehicle. The ABS system and braking system are integrated into one complex unit referred to as the "Hydraboost" system. It is a hydraulically assisted system that combines an Hydraulic Assistance, ABS Functions, and a Brake Master Cylinder into one unit. While theoretically the failure of the ABS system would not affect braking performance other than complex features such as traction control, ABS, and so on. Because of the integration of the unit with the rest of the braking components, a failure in the Hydraboost unit could indicate a problem that could lead to hydraulic failure.

This is a very serious safety issue that should have been addressed, most modern vehicles are designed to work with their ABS and tractions control systems and when they are not functioning could cause potentional problems that could lead to serious injury in the hands of inexperienced drivers.

While going from your description of the issue it seems that both the Dealer and Customer Care did not impart to you the severity of the problem at hand, it is still your responsibility as an owner to maintain your vehicle. You chose to not repair the vehicle, knowing it had a potentional safety issue and further more you gave that vehicle with a potentional safety issue to your inexperienced daughter. Whether or not it was driver error or actual hydraulic failure, you did not help the situation by leaving a glaring issue like that unattended.

You're more than welcome to blame whomever you'd like, but I believe that when you refuse to repair an issue that is brought to your attention on multiple accounts that becomes your responsibility to deal with the consequences of your actions. Just the same as giving large, potentionally unsafe vehicle to an inexperienced driver.

I'm sorry if I am coming accross as critical or harsh, but I really cannot see the fault being laid squarely on Toyota's feet for this issue.

Post Note-

Have you had the vehicle checked out to verify a brake failure? A hydraulic failure will be very obvious and should not be difficult for a technician to diagnose. It is also not something that goes away by itself.

 

[zimm]

Have it towed in and diagnosed by a proper mechanic. You don't get brake system advice from Toyota customer care. You call them if you don't like the service you got from the dealership. Report back with what exactly went wrong. Very rare to have a full system failure since the front and rear brake systems are separate. Are you sure you really lost the brakes, or did you just lose power assist? A new driver might not know that the brakes still work without power assist, it just takes a lot of pressure.

When I learned to drive, my dad would turn off the engine while driving (I don't recommend this by the way) just to get a feel for driving the car to a stop without power brakes and steering.

 

[bluemarlin04]

Really? Blame the 15y/o who is just learning to drive? And how would she know what bad brakes are she doesn't even know how to use them yet. :bash:

im sure stomping on the pedal and nothing happening is not operator error

I bet the truck's brake problems mysteriously went away once a different driver got behind the wheel. I've never heard of a brake system failing out of no where.

 

[zstampe]

im sure stomping on the pedal and nothing happening is not operator error

He wasn't there to verify that though. When you were 15 and did something stupid you blamed everyone/thing else because you hadn't learned accountability yet. Unless he can point to exactly what failed id blame the inexperienced driver.

 

[combatmedic]

im sure stomping on the pedal and nothing happening is not operator error

I bet they were doing stupid **** in the parking lot, "watch me to a burnout in my daddies 4runner!"

 

[Casper421]

I bet they were doing stupid **** in the parking lot, "watch me to a burnout in my daddies 4runner!"

During a driving school class? You just said stupid ****!

 

[Nathana92]

I would have loved to hear the tranny scream while being slammed into park while rolling!!! Makes me cringe.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I would have loved to hear the tranny scream while being slammed into park while rolling!!! Makes me cringe.

Scream? Oh it won't scream... it'll go;

"CLATTER bang CLATTER CLATTER, CRAAACK!" as the parking pawl finally catches or just outright snaps off.

 

[4D7]

Quite frankly, the Title of this thread pisses me off. How dare you blame Toyota for your daughters incompetence.

 

[DC runner]

Every 15 year old, learning to drive, has a freak out at somepoint. I once shed about 50% of my tires while learning to drive and drive stick at the same time when I went to start from a stop on a hill. I peeled out, unintentionally, for a good long time...


Kids freak. They don't have the muscle memory and lose it trying to find/use brake. **** happens.

Also, total brake failure? Hrrms? I kinda wanna call B.S. Even if the electronics died and you lost the assist, you should still be able to have sheer PSI, fluid, pressure. Much harder, bet your butt.

Also, ABS, is not the brakes. When you lose ABS, all that means is your car won't have the electronic ability to pulsate the brakes... but you don't lose brakes.

Did the brakes "magically" work again later???

 

[bluemarlin04]

It'd be near impossible for a brake system to completely fail. Even if you hit the brakes and a line failed causing a 100% pressure loss you should still have enough pressure left to stop the car or at least slow it down enough to safely coast to a stop or hit the emergency brake.

 

[DC runner]

I think it is safe to assume their is some driver error here, unless we hear back that a rock ripped a huge hole in the brake line and it was shooting out brake fluid like a water gun.

Even then, yea, you get 1 or 2 good pumps before it goes.