Crawford Eco Block

[mo_mo]

...in closed loop the ECU is constantly using o2 feedback to adjust fuel trims, but there are times when the o2 feedback has little value.

1. WOT/Open loop.
2. Throttle transitions
...

I believe those fuel trims are applied to the two cases you reference.

In my opinion, any claims made for these types of products need to be verified and the onus is on the manufacturer. An independent dyno should be used with multiple pre and post runs (with the post runs after a full tank of gas without resetting the ECU / battery disconnect). Engineers can do a lot with an ECU, just look at the 'Volkswagen scandal'. Ask yourself which one wins in ensuring your engine maintains peak performance, a spacer or an ECU.

 

[mo_mo]

Graphs aside...

It's been tried a few times, and at least once with the product advertised here (you can read back to the start of this thread somewhere). The 'traction control' doesn't like the dyno runs and cuts power. This has been seen on a few dyno run attempts and not just for this product. I suspect there are a few ways to trick the vehicle into doing it by disconnecting a few VSC type sensors but I haven't heard of a successful run. I'm curious what the supercharged people are doing if anything (because science).

 

[wfo9]

I believe those fuel trims are applied to the two cases you reference.

Not really but it depends. Some ECUs will use the last Trim cell and apply it at WOT and ignore short term. But these do have WBs, so hard to say for sure. I do know the WBs cut off their readings in these trucks around 12.0.

As far as throttle transitions go.. Things are happening too fast for feedback, plus there is some very interesting calculations based on fuel boiling on the intake surfaces on transitions. I'm not sure how the Toyota ECU does it without a MAP sensor, so my assumption is it is 100% MAF based. Steady states and transitions are quite different really.

I don't think any of these device can result in major power or MPG gains. Were talking small amounts here and chassis dynos honestly don't tell you much at all besides peak output, especially with these transmissions that won't really allow a full rpm pull.

For something like this you just have to try it and log some data....and keep track of fuel consumption over time... Problem is... most 4r owners are not really equiped to capture data or know what to do with it if they did.

 

[mo_mo]

Not really but it depends. Some ECUs will use the last Trim cell and apply it at WOT and ignore short term. But these do have WBs, so hard to say for sure. I do know the WBs cut off their readings in these trucks around 12.0.

As far as throttle transitions go.. Things are happening too fast for feedback, plus there is some very interesting calculations based on fuel boiling on the intake surfaces on transitions. I'm not sure how the Toyota ECU does it without a MAP sensor, so my assumption is it is 100% MAF based. Steady states and transitions are quite different really.

I don't think any of these device can result in major power or MPG gains. Were talking small amounts here and chassis dynos honestly don't tell you much at all besides peak output, especially with these transmissions that won't really allow a full rpm pull.

For something like this you just have to try it and log some data....and keep track of fuel consumption over time... Problem is... most 4r owners are not really equiped to capture data or know what to do with it if they did.

The long term trims should move with this type of device, not just the short term trims moving based on air temp/density/fuel quality of the last couple of minutes.

Yes yes complicated yes yes hard yes yes maths... leprechaun gave me magic details to make magic spacer which solves this magically better than any automobile manufacturer

Keep in mind that any transients you're attempting to theoretically characterize could impact performance negatively by the same amount that is being positively theorized unless that leprechaun really knew what he was doing. :hatsoff:

 

[wfo9]

The long term trims should move with this type of device, not just the short term trims moving based on air temp/density/fuel quality of the last couple of minutes.

Yes yes complicated yes yes hard yes yes maths... leprechaun gave me magic details to make magic spacer which solves this magically better than any automobile manufacturer

Keep in mind that any transients you're attempting to theoretically characterize could impact performance negatively by the same amount that is being positively theorized unless that leprechaun really knew what he was doing. :hatsoff:

By complicated I mean they all do it differently and we can't really reverse engineer this ECU. The Trim cells are load and RPM based, so you can be moving between them rapidly.. Steady states, no doubt the trims and feedback are full on for fuel...

Anyway, let's not get side tracked. Read my post again. I don't think the fueling has much to do with it really. I'm just trying to theorize how it might provide improvements and I think that might be via a side effect on timing.

I'm not saying it works (especially this thing). But I don't think all the positive results on the URD maf calibrator are all lies and placebo. So this may do the same at a very crude level. It also may be compete BS, but I put very little faith in Toyotas stock calibration. It's obviously not very good on many levels.

 

[mo_mo]

By complicated I mean they all do it differently and we can't really reverse engineer this ECU. The Trim cells are load and RPM based, so you can be moving between them rapidly.. Steady states, no doubt the trims and feedback are full on for fuel...

Anyway, let's not get side tracked. Read my post again. I don't think the fueling has much to do with it really. I'm just trying to theorize how it might provide improvements and I think that might be via a side effect on timing.

I'm not saying it works (especially this thing). But I don't think all the positive results on the URD maf calibrator are all lies and placebo. So this may do the same at a very crude level. It also may be compete BS, but I put very little faith in Toyotas stock calibration. It's obviously not very good on many levels.

Got it. I agree. Let's not get sidetracked. This thread is specifically about the crawford eco block. The onus remains on the manufacturer/distributor/reseller to show that the product meets a the previously given claims. No need for further discussion in this thread. :focus:

 

[Engineer]

I think most everything was discussed in this thread, especially the closed loop function of the ECU. But to answer your question again, the ECU keeps the air fuel ratio at 14.7 to 1 while in closed loop regardless of our Eco Block. Although the ignition advance is still there during closed loop fueling.

As for sharing my tuning information / data.... I quit doing that almost 20 years ago now.

Quirt

I understand you not wanting to waste your time, for likely the 100th time, as likely anything you provide wont change my mind however providing no data or even methodology to how the thickness was developed seems sketchy.

More power, less emissions, cheap with no downsides , one size fits most - I simply don't believe that a single indivual (no offense) is smarter than Toyota and if they could get up to 8% power or mpg gain, don't recall the exact claim, by making FREE adjustments to the timing advance with no downsides - they would do it or you would approach these OEM's and sell direct and every car sold would have this and you would not be selling them in "offered on midnight TV" type packaging.

https://www.amazon.com/Crawford-Per...srs=10979842011&ie=UTF8&qid=1518795478&sr=8-3

Considering how much debate over the years you can dig up on the various forums that this is advertised on that also leaves me with out warm and fuzzys. With a product like this there should be no debate, there should be enough fact to convince the majority of folks its real vs. what I would ball park 50/50 support. Either the facts backing it up are questionable or there is a lot of idiots in the room ignoring the facts.

I could 100% be wrong and this might be everything its advertised as, I have no facts to prove its not, but I am also not making money selling them.

 

[Quirt]

Well... attempting to create a mystery around how the ECU functions just shows a lack of common sense and a fear of the unknown. The ECU is just a computer and its one and only function is to crunch numbers.

The number one piece of data it uses in its equations is the RPM signal and the second most used piece of data comes from the MAF sensor, assuming the engine has a MAF sensor, if not then it comes from the MAP sensor. The data from the MAF sensor is not a compensation to the main fuel equation, instead it's one of the primary numbers. So with that in mind you should be able to see that changing the MAF or "LOAD" value can have a huge effect on the result of the ECU's number crunching.

What's happening within the ECU is all math... no magic at all. So as a tuner, we go into the ECU and change the math so the end result is what we prefer.

The Closed loop function of the tune is one of the compensations applied to the main fuel map. Closed loop fueling is expensive for the manufactures so they only did it because the government forced them. Because of the associated cost there are different styles of Closed loop fueling which are mandated by the type / cost of the air fuel ratio sensor used. The low cost sensors are only good for partial closed loop fueling as they can only read a "narrow band" of the AFR / air fuel ratio. This narrow band of the AFR is where the motor runs at during idle and light throttle / load application. When you apply more throttle / load then the AFR drops below what the low cost sensors can reliably read and it's at this point that the system goes into open loop fueling. Open loop fueling also starts after the point where the government mandates the AFR / emissions from the engine, and because of this the manufacture opts for an overly rich mixture as it is easy and extra safe, and big brother is not looking over their shoulder.

There is a small hand full of cars that come equipped with the expensive "wide band" AFR sensors and the Prius is one of them. These cars run in closed loop all the time and as such they get exceptional fuel mileage. FYI, our Eco Block fuel saver has no effect on the fuel mileage of a Prius or any other vehicle which runs in close loop fueling 100% of the time.

A good common sense approach to how soon your vehicle transitions into open loop fueling can be achieved by simply looking at your fuel mileage. Poor fuel mileage can be seen as a result of open loop fueling.

So if you are getting 40 mpg then our Eco Block is most likely not going to give you a 7% increase in mileage, but if you are getting 15 mpg then you will most likely see more than 7% increase in fuel mileage. Again, simple math, simple common sense.

Because I have been tuning ECU's sense 1994, I have learned what air fuel ratios will make good safe power and that is what I used as a guideline for the development of my Eco Block fuel saver as well as all the tuning I have done. The first "real" race car motors that I ran on the dyno where twin turbo V6 Nissan GTP motors that ran in 24 hour races, and between 1989 and 1991 we won the championship three years in a row, with an annual budget from Nissan of 25 million bucks. No corner cutting or unsafe tunes in these race cars, and they ran much leaner than what our automotive manufactures sell us.

The original design of our Eco Block was 20% different that what we sell to the general public, which gives a 20% safety cushion over what we ran on two race cars for a full season of racing back in 2011. These two cars finished second and third in the points championship with our female drivers racing against men in the series.

I'm not usually long winded, or toot my own horn, but enough people have asked.

Quirt

 

[wfo9]

First off.. just so you know.. These trucks do come with WB o2s before the cats. But they don't seem to run in closed loop at WOT. The open loop trigger does seem a bit resistant though. You really have to be on it compare to most engines I've messed with. And this is very much part of why you see owners thinking the sprint booster is such a great improvement in power. It basically pushes the pedal harder for you and gets you into power enrichment/open loop easier and there is obviously more power available with a power mixture (~12-13) vs closed loop.

I'm unclear on why anyone would run an ecoblock on a race car. That makes 0 sense to me LOL. You simply tune the motor to get what you want, you don't trick the MAF readings (unless you were trying to race a locked ECU) You simply map them or skip the MAF all together and do SD... which is what I've have seen and done on most race setups....

Now on these trucks, the eco block may provide positive results. But as far as MPG.. it has nothing to do with fueling (because we know the ECU is going to find its way to 14.7 in closed loop - which is 90% of most peoples driving). What it might do though, is trick the load readings to be lower. Which could provide more timing, which can provide more power and mpg if no knock is detected.

I think what skeptics are looking for is a scientific explanation of how it works vs just claims. Since many people understand closed loop fueling they are scratching their heads on how it can improve MPG and why the mfg would not just build it that way from the factory.

 

[Jetboy]

The testing is easy enough if you're serious about proving the claims. There are vehicles with the same engine and a manual transmission. 10+ fj cruiser. A few minutes on an awd dyno would put this to bed.

AFR will not change by 7% and still retain balanced three way catalytic function. This is complex math, but still just math. You can't trick the chemical equations. If it did work to lean the mix emissions go up. If you can change the equations you will be a shoe in for the Nobel prize. You won't even have to explain it. Just make it work differently and prove it - guaranteed Nobel prize.

Common signs of junk science:
The claimed effect appears so weak that observers can hardly distinguish it from noise. No amount of further work increases the signal.

Anecdotal evidence is used to back up the claim.

 

[Quirt]

First off.. just so you know.. These trucks do come with WB o2s before the cats. But they don't seem to run in closed loop at WOT. The open loop trigger does seem a bit resistant though. You really have to be on it compare to most engines I've messed with. And this is very much part of why you see owners thinking the sprint booster is such a great improvement in power. It basically pushes the pedal harder for you and gets you into power enrichment/open loop easier and there is obviously more power available with a power mixture (~12-13) vs closed loop.

I'm unclear on why anyone would run an ecoblock on a race car. That makes 0 sense to me LOL. You simply tune the motor to get what you want, you don't trick the MAF readings (unless you were trying to race a locked ECU) You simply map them or skip the MAF all together and do SD... which is what I've have seen and done on most race setups....

Now on these trucks, the eco block may provide positive results. But as far as MPG.. it has nothing to do with fueling (because we know the ECU is going to find its way to 14.7 in closed loop - which is 90% of most peoples driving). What it might do though, is trick the load readings to be lower. Which could provide more timing, which can provide more power and mpg if no knock is detected.

I think what skeptics are looking for is a scientific explanation of how it works vs just claims. Since many people understand closed loop fueling they are scratching their heads on how it can improve MPG and why the mfg would not just build it that way from the factory.

You are correct, these trucks are equipped with a narrow band 02 / air fuel ratio sensor, as are 99% of the vehicles equipped with a removable MAF sensor. Just so you know... This is the only type of vehicle that our Eco Block works on. You also should know that the AFR during open loop fueling is not at the 12 to 13 to 1 ratio you mentioned, it is a lot closer to 10.5 to 11.5 to 1 AFR.

You are also correct about the race car I mentioned. Instead of installing an aftermarket ECU like a MoTeC so I could fully tune it, I chose to get around the locked up Toyota ECU with a MAF spacer. SD is how most people tune and it is also how I have tuned 80% of my projects like this one; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ7R_buZPSo But MAF is a more precise way to tune.

Explaining scientifically how an ECU works is over my head... a scientist I am not

Quirt

 

[RedSled]

You are correct, these trucks are equipped with a narrow band 02 / air fuel ratio sensor, as are 99% of the vehicles equipped with a removable MAF sensor. Just so you know... This is the only type of vehicle that our Eco Block works on. You also should know that the AFR during open loop fueling is not at the 12 to 13 to 1 ratio you mentioned, it is a lot closer to 10.5 to 11.5 to 1 AFR.

You are also correct about the race car I mentioned. Instead of installing an aftermarket ECU like a MoTeC so I could fully tune it, I chose to get around the locked up Toyota ECU with a MAF spacer. SD is how most people tune and it is also how I have tuned 80% of my projects like this one; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ7R_buZPSo But MAF is a more precise way to tune.

Explaining scientifically how an ECU works is over my head... a scientist I am not

Quirt

Great video.

 

[wfo9]

You are correct, these trucks are equipped with a narrow band 02 / air fuel ratio sensor, as are 99% of the vehicles equipped with a removable MAF sensor. Just so you know... This is the only type of vehicle that our Eco Block works on. You also should know that the AFR during open loop fueling is not at the 12 to 13 to 1 ratio you mentioned, it is a lot closer to 10.5 to 11.5 to 1 AFR.

You are also correct about the race car I mentioned. Instead of installing an aftermarket ECU like a MoTeC so I could fully tune it, I chose to get around the locked up Toyota ECU with a MAF spacer. SD is how most people tune and it is also how I have tuned 80% of my projects like this one; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ7R_buZPSo But MAF is a more precise way to tune.

Explaining scientifically how an ECU works is over my head... a scientist I am not

Quirt

They are actually equipped with two wideband 02 sensors + two narrow bands for cat efficiency purposes. The only narrow band oriented thing I have noticed is they won't report anything below .82 Lambda. I have an AEM wideband in my truck and it tracks perfectly with the factory readings until drops below .82 and that is where the factory seems to have a floor as it reports from the ECU.

 

[wfo9]

There really can't be an exact science here.. because we know at best it is a hack. Hacks are not always a bad thing though.. they are useful to solve problems when you can only control the external inputs of a system.....

For more power at open loop. The ECU sees less air and runs a little leaner could be used.... I can almost get behind that one, but would want to see some actual readings to be convinced. This is not hard to do because the trucks have a simple parameter which reports MAF and Lambda that can be logged.

But for the MPG one.. that just does not hold up since we know closed loop will be at play. The timing one might though... That is my only point. Some explanation on how the hack/sensor adjustment works and some proof of data logs to show why. This can all be logged without any really specialized equipment as its standard odbII stuff (timing, maf, lambda, rpm...).

I'm not against the idea at all. I think it could be beneficial on a stock 4runner, but hard to just trust claims without some data.

 

[Quirt]

They are actually equipped with two wideband 02 sensors + two narrow bands for cat efficiency purposes. The only narrow band oriented thing I have noticed is they won't report anything below .82 Lambda. I have an AEM wideband in my truck and it tracks perfectly with the factory readings until drops below .82 and that is where the factory seems to have a floor as it reports from the ECU.

I think you are confused about the difference between a wide band and narrow band Lambda sensor, .82 Lambda or 12.05 AFR is in the range of a narrow band sensor while a wide band will read much lower with a huge increase in accuracy and speed.

A quick google search will provide plenty of data on this subject, just like this one I will quote for you;

What is an 02 Sensor what does it do?
Broadly speaking there are two different types of O2 sensor available, wideband and narrowband. Both sensors have their place in tuning an engine, narrowband sensors are designed to be used in conjunction with a catalytic converter.

In brief a catalytic converter works on a saturate/starve principal where the fuel injection system saturates the converter then starves the converter, i.e. it runs rich of 14.7:1 (saturate) then lean of 14.7:1 (starve) and as such a narrowband O2 sensor only reads rich of 14.7:1 or lean of 14.7:1.

Unfortunately a narrowband O2 sensor is unable to determine exactly how rich or exactly how lean the engine is running making it useless for full power engine calibration (as under full power we need to run the engine much richer that 14.7:1 so we don’t melt pistons!).

A wideband O2 sensor on the other hand is designed to read a much broader spectrum of air to fuel ratios (The Haltech CAN wideband reads accurately from 10:1 – 20:1 air fuel ratio) which makes it the ideal tool for engine calibration.

Narrowband or Wideband?
For engine calibration purposes, diagnostic purposes, datalogging and performance work a wideband O2 sensor is the correct tool for the job. For emissions related purposes used in conjunction with catalytic converters a narrowband O2 sensor is essential (normally with a wideband O2 sensor in place as well for the full power engine calibration).

 

[Quirt]

There really can't be an exact science here.. because we know at best it is a hack. Hacks are not always a bad thing though.. they are useful to solve problems when you can only control the external inputs of a system.....

For more power at open loop. The ECU sees less air and runs a little leaner could be used.... I can almost get behind that one, but would want to see some actual readings to be convinced. This is not hard to do because the trucks have a simple parameter which reports MAF and Lambda that can be logged.

But for the MPG one.. that just does not hold up since we know closed loop will be at play. The timing one might though... That is my only point. Some explanation on how the hack/sensor adjustment works and some proof of data logs to show why. This can all be logged without any really specialized equipment as its standard odbII stuff (timing, maf, lambda, rpm...).

I'm not against the idea at all. I think it could be beneficial on a stock 4runner, but hard to just trust claims without some data.

I totally understand what you are saying because when you tune in speed density you never tune the load input from a MAF sensor. I also spent most of my years tuning in speed density, but when I first tuned a MAF based system I realized that you tune / change the scaling of the MAF sensor to affect the air fuel ratio.

After doing this for a few years I realized that spacing up the MAF sensor has the exact same effect on the AFR which led to creating the Eco Block for an ECU that I could not get into to re-tune like we are used to doing.

Quirt

 

[83Mule]

Correct Me if I'm wrong....NO FJ came with the Engine in the 5th Gen 4runner. Fj got the 239 hp Tacoma style 4.0

 

[wfo9]

Correct Me if I'm wrong....NO FJ came with the Engine in the 5th Gen 4runner. Fj got the 239 hp Tacoma style 4.0

2010 plus did come with same 5th gen motor but finding one of those with a manual is nearly impossible and they are AWD with a locking center with the manual trans...

 

[mo_mo]

Correct Me if I'm wrong....NO FJ came with the Engine in the 5th Gen 4runner. Fj got the 239 hp Tacoma style 4.0

The engine power specs are slightly different between the 4runner and the FJ, but parts wise I believe they are pretty much interchangeable. The manual FJs also came with Full Time 4WD so a 2 axle dyno would be needed unless someone is pulling axles.

There are a few videos on youtube of 5th gen 4runners doing dyno runs, so it is possible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_jLihMNYyc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgtZqO7X95Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgtZqO7X95Q

The last one is on both axles but the first two are on the rear axle only. Where there is a will, there is a way!

 

[Jetboy]

Even an MT Tacoma or an is250 with an MT would be close enough. Just proof that the concept works on any engine in the family with similar emissions systems would be a good enough to prove me wrong.

edit: And I mean just prove that there's better mpg or that AFRs in closed loop are different.