damage multipliers eh...?

[the great him]

yeah i dont think they are as bad as you all say...

so these pics are from this morning in Oregon on hwy 26 in the coast range. the Tahoe just has a push bar on the front of his rig, its not to hold a winch or prevent impact damage ect. its simply to push a disabled vehicle off the road and a place to mount some lights and a speaker. i know how these things are installed -a friend of mine works for OPS in their motor pool shop and does the retro-fitting of the vehicles ie lights, wiring, computer systems, cages, push bars ect. anyhow they are the same mounting system as a brush guard. look at the Mercedes that hit the Tahoe, it was going close to 30mph and the Tahoe was doing about the same.






as you can see from the first pic, the Tahoe walks away 100% drivable and with minimal damage... compare that to the Mercedes that slid into it, that car is totalled and is not drivable the rear door will not open. considerably less damage to the Tahoe with the push bar than with out the push bar in my opinion...

i think some of you guys are not giving these bush guards and push bumpers the credit they deserve. sure a Shrockworks, ODL, ARB or Armorology bumper would be nice but if you dont have a minimum of $700 to drop on one then you work with what you got. now just like bumpers, not all brush guards are made the same, yes there are some really cheep ones out there that will dent and fold up when they hit a butterfly at 60mph but you get what you pay for. if you buy one that is a $199 then yeah id be worries, but if you spend $3-400 on one you should be fine. idk how much mine cost, as it was on the truck when i bought it, but i do know that it is well made, and attaches at 4 points, two of which are to the frame and the other two to the bumper. its survived several impacts and has never once cause a dimes worth of damage to my rig.

 

[Shawn5800]

Yet, it still looks like the entire brush guard is bent down which means it took part of the frame with it.

 

[4-Ripcord]

Apples to oranges here..

With the brush guards we are talking about as "damage multipliers", the bars dont stop at the bumper. Guard covers the entire front of the vehicle including the grille, headlights, the front of the hood..

You can't deny the push bar on the tahoe was pushed back, just look at it. If that tahoe had a full brush guard like the one were talking about, it would have also been pushed back into the vehicle and you would see damage to headlights, grille, possibly fenders and hood.



On a side note, was everyone OK? Looks like a nasty hit.

 

[t4r4life]

the ones made for 4runner sucks, they are made outta of like 18g crappy chinese steel, and for 200 something dollars, i rather spend that money on beer and hookers and take a chance on my stock bumper.

 

[thorridder]

i like this. as always someone says something bad about them, but i love mine. not sure about anything on mine because it too was on it when i got it, but with my 2" BL i have thicker plate for the bumper lift and 1/2" bolts holding it all on so its stronger than it was on the stock position. yeah i would love a tube or plate bumper but this one is great for now. been very good to me.

 

[Toms97]

I think the "damage multiplier" comes from the bumper mounted brush guards. They do nothing to add strength while causing the bumper to twist/break at the mounts forcing the energy back into the radiator when they are hit.

A frame mounted brush guard does tend to do a decent job of taking a beating while protecting the radiator and engine. I know iv caught a deer with mine that only put a little dent in the brush guard where his head hit. Iv pushed a bunch of cars/trucks around to move them, some with wheels locked up. Earlier this winter during the first snow I even had a little nissan slide into me going maybe 15 while I was stopped.

After all of that the only damage to the 4rnr or brush guard is that little dent, some scratches and a bit of a bend on the outer edge of the driver side support.

Granted this is all fairly low speed stuff, in a higher speed situation the brush guard will change the way your vehicle behaves in an impact and also change the timing of airbag deployment.

It is really about what your expecting it to do. For many low speed situations or pushing things around a brush guard can be a big help. For a lot of off roading purposes it only gets in the way. For high speed impacts I doubt it does anything useful and maybe even hinders the vehicles ability to properly absorb the energy.

 

[Atreyus]

What are your guys thoughts on bull bars? I'm thinking about getting one for about $110.

 

[1985taylor1925]

What are your guys thoughts on bull bars? I'm thinking about getting one for about $110.

Theyre super duper awesome!!

They add like 200hp, make your 4runner invincible, and give you the power to become invisible anytime you want. If you wanna be cool like me youll get one

 

[Atreyus]

Is there a mount on yours to place the license plate?

 

[1985taylor1925]

But in real life, honestly theyre strickly cosmetic. I mean they come with brackets to mount a set of aux lights which is nice, and I'll probably be doing so in the future. But theyre not gonna do anything in a collision. Thats not why I got mine. I mean sure theyll protect you from a car bumping you in a parking lot, or a dumb kid on a bicycle not looking where hes going. Thats about it. On the other hand I dont think mine would make anything worse in an accident. It would just collapse into the center of the bumper. With mine the bar itself seems pretty strong, but the brackets seem a bit weak.

 

[t4r4life]

Theyre super duper awesome!!

They add like 200hp, make your 4runner invincible, and give you the power to become invisible anytime you want. If you wanna be cool like me youll get one

View attachment 59818

View attachment 59819

if those tubes are .120 wall then it would be pretty badass

 

[1985taylor1925]

Is there a mount on yours to place the license plate?

A liscense plate?? No that just goes on the valance. You can see the two holes where I took my plate off.

 

[the great him]

Yet, it still looks like the entire brush guard is bent down which means it took part of the frame with it.

really you think that bent the frame, come on now... think about it. look at the damage to the Tahoe and the bar, all it did was ben the mounting brakets and pushed it back in a little.

Apples to oranges here..

With the brush guards we are talking about as "damage multipliers", the bars dont stop at the bumper. Guard covers the entire front of the vehicle including the grille, headlights, the front of the hood..

You can't deny the push bar on the tahoe was pushed back, just look at it. If that tahoe had a full brush guard like the one were talking about, it would have also been pushed back into the vehicle and you would see damage to headlights, grille, possibly fenders and hood.



On a side note, was everyone OK? Looks like a nasty hit.

how is this apples and oranges?! they are push bars/brush bars/guards... the same thing man, just one has some wings on it. yes the push bar was pushed back into the hood and grille, but do you think for one moment that those would not have been touched by the impact other wise?! that bar held the Mercedes a considerable ways out from the body of the truck, taking the brunt of the impact. im not saying they are better than a aftermarket winch bumper, and i have never said that. but they are way better than nothing. look at the damage to the Mercedes compared to the Tahoe(take the push bar off mentally) and then tell me those two vehicles hit each other... it would never have happened, that Tahoe would be all punched in up front, that hood would be folded back, the grille broken to bits, the lights all knocked out and or broken, the front bumper would be wrinkled up like a beer can and the front fenders would be bent around. the front of cars are designed to absorb impacts, and lessen the force durring a collusion, this bar took that impact and protected the body. there is no way you can deny that.

sure if he had the wings that go out and cover the lights he might of had the drivers side pushed back into the finder, but that finder is(was) damaged anyways, with or without the light guards/wings. the turn signal on the front right that is hanging out was dislodged from the force of the impact, not from actual contact. that $500 push bar that was sacrificed saved a lot more than $500 in damages. so its well worth if it you ask me

as far as i know everyone is fine, the occupants of the Mercedes had minor injuries, and the Trooper walked(drove) away

 

[1985taylor1925]

if those tubes are .120 wall then it would be pretty badass

Im not sure. The seller just says "true stainless steel t-304 grade tubing". But even if the bar added rigidity in an accident, the mounting brackets would collapse. Ive thought of different ways to beef up the brackets to make the bar an actual structural piece. I just dont have a welder. If I had access to one I would go all out. The bar is bolted to the frame where the tow hooks/shackles bolt on, which is nice. I even thought of putting a steel plate in the stock bumper, and then putting a spacer between the bumper and bull bar to make it basically one solid piece.

 

[1985taylor1925]

really you think that bent the frame, come on now... think about it. look at the damage to the Tahoe and the bar, all it did was ben the mounting brakets and pushed it back in a little.



how is this apples and oranges?! they are push bars/brush bars/guards... the same thing man, just one has some wings on it. yes the push bar was pushed back into the hood and grille, but do you think for one moment that those would not have been touched by the impact other wise?! that bar held the Mercedes a considerable ways out from the body of the truck, taking the brunt of the impact. im not saying they are better than a aftermarket winch bumper, and i have never said that. but they are way better than nothing. look at the damage to the Mercedes compared to the Tahoe(take the push bar off mentally) and then tell me those two vehicles hit each other... it would never have happened, that Tahoe would be all punched in up front, that hood would be folded back, the grille broken to bits, the lights all knocked out and or broken, the front bumper would be wrinkled up like a beer can and the front fenders would be bent around. the front of cars are designed to absorb impacts, and lessen the force durring a collusion, this bar took that impact and protected the body. there is no way you can deny that.

sure if he had the wings that go out and cover the lights he might of had the drivers side pushed back into the finder, but that finder is(was) damaged anyways, with or without the light guards/wings. the turn signal on the front right that is hanging out was dislodged from the force of the impact, not from actual contact. that $500 push bar that was sacrificed saved a lot more than $500 in damages. so its well worth if it you ask me

as far as i know everyone is fine, the occupants of the Mercedes had minor injuries, and the Trooper walked(drove) away

Im cool with my bull bar. But I wouldnt put on a full brush guard simply for the stated reasons. Like you mentioned, its the brackets that will be damaged first, not necessarily the bar itself. But for example, if someone hit you from an angle right in the center of the brush guard, it could bend it sideways causing the light cover on one side to hit the light and crack it. Whereas without the light covers the damage may only have been to the bumper, hood, etc. But either way, its difficult to argue how a brush guard will increase damage. I think in some cases it could decrease the amount of damage. There are too many variable. But if someone likes the idea of a brush guard, cool. power to the people!! :guitar2:

 

[4-Ripcord]

really you think that bent the frame, come on now... think about it. look at the damage to the Tahoe and the bar, all it did was ben the mounting brakets and pushed it back in a little.



how is this apples and oranges?! they are push bars/brush bars/guards... the same thing man, just one has some wings on it. yes the push bar was pushed back into the hood and grille, but do you think for one moment that those would not have been touched by the impact other wise?! that bar held the Mercedes a considerable ways out from the body of the truck, taking the brunt of the impact. im not saying they are better than a aftermarket winch bumper, and i have never said that. but they are way better than nothing. look at the damage to the Mercedes compared to the Tahoe(take the push bar off mentally) and then tell me those two vehicles hit each other... it would never have happened, that Tahoe would be all punched in up front, that hood would be folded back, the grille broken to bits, the lights all knocked out and or broken, the front bumper would be wrinkled up like a beer can and the front fenders would be bent around. the front of cars are designed to absorb impacts, and lessen the force durring a collusion, this bar took that impact and protected the body. there is no way you can deny that.

sure if he had the wings that go out and cover the lights he might of had the drivers side pushed back into the finder, but that finder is(was) damaged anyways, with or without the light guards/wings. the turn signal on the front right that is hanging out was dislodged from the force of the impact, not from actual contact. that $500 push bar that was sacrificed saved a lot more than $500 in damages. so its well worth if it you ask me

as far as i know everyone is fine, the occupants of the Mercedes had minor injuries, and the Trooper walked(drove) away

\
Its apples to oranges because its two different types of guards, you are comparing bull bars to brush guards. Yeah the one on the Tahoe did well. BUT, if it were one with the.. "wings" as you call them, it would have F'd up the front of that truck. Hitting components that otherwise would not have been hit. This would, get this.. MULTIPLY the damage done. Ergo, damage multiplier.

Also, they ruin approach angles offroad.

 

[the great him]

\
Its apples to oranges because its two different types of guards, you are comparing bull bars to brush guards. Yeah the one on the Tahoe did well. BUT, if it were one with the.. "wings" as you call them, it would have F'd up the front of that truck. Hitting components that otherwise would not have been hit. This would, get this.. MULTIPLY the damage done. Ergo, damage multiplier.

Also, they ruin approach angles offroad.

and if it had nothing...?

 

[tbst]

ARB vs Deer. ARB 1, Deer 0.

 

[tbst]

and if it had nothing...?

Obviously an ARB or some sort of plate aftermarket bumper is better. But I can't see how having a brush guard is WORSE, definitively. It's more metal to take the momentum of the crash, and not your radiator (unless the momentum is enough). Paying $400 for one seems silly though. You could get a new ARB for double that, and in my mind 50x the protection.

 

[the great him]

oh no i understand your point 110%, but if someone only has $400 then they only have $400 and $400 is not $800... and if you are like me, who bought their runner with one already installed, then it cost you $0 and $0 is still not $800 so ill keep mine untill i can afford an ARB(which just so happens to be the bumper im gonna get).

but even aftermarket bumpers like the ARB, shrockworks, ODL, ect can cause damage that other wise might not have occurred. so the argument/statement of "damage multipliers is flawed... thats all i was trying to say in this thread.