Dead Battery

[TheDurk]

I did find a couple Youtube videos that gave the basics. First I get the battery in and just see what kind of amps is being drawn. What's a safe range of amps that I want to be in?

Like I said, start at the highest <10A DC), and work down. If your truck has no abnormal drain, you should get to the lowest range <200mA and show <50mA. I have no idea what any fault would draw. But the 10A max could be exceeded by a really bad fault. If you have a test light, you might start with that. If it lights up when put between post and terminal, you have a very large draw and it may not be safe to use your meter, so just use the test light. If it goes out or lights only dimly, the 10A range will be safe to use.

 

[MStudt]

Like I said, start at the highest <10A DC), and work down. If your truck has no abnormal drain, you should get to the lowest range <200mA and show <50mA. I have no idea what any fault would draw. But the 10A max could be exceeded by a really bad fault. If you have a test light, you might start with that. If it lights up when put between post and terminal, you have a very large draw and it may not be safe to use your meter, so just use the test light. If it goes out or lights only dimly, the 10A range will be safe to use.

Let me see what I can figure out tonight.

 

[LittleCaesar]

I think mine rests at 35Mamps. Most autos are 50 and below, except per se a police cruiser, which I believe depending on the amount of electronics used, is around 80Mas.

A circuit tester (test light) is cheap ($10 for a decent one) and helps tests for shorts and grounds.

 

[MStudt]

I think mine rests at 35Mamps. Most autos are 50 and below, except per se a police cruiser, which I believe depending on the amount of electronics used, is around 80Mas.

A circuit tester (test light) is cheap ($10 for a decent one) and helps tests for shorts and grounds.

I've got everything I need to test it. I'm just getting multiple people tells me to pull the negative off and test it, and multiple people telling me not to (not on here). I've been that if you open the circuit (pulling the negative) you wouldn't be able to tell if you have a stuck or broke relay.

 

[LittleCaesar]

Before any amp testing, it is paramount to make sure that the battery is good. If there is any doubt, take it somewhere to get it tested. Otherwise, false readings aren't worth much.

I have never taken off the ground (neg) cable, just the positive to measure any possible draw. I would think you could, just never have done it.
This guy does:
How To Perform a Parasitic Draw Test - EricTheCarGuy - YouTube

 

[MStudt]

Before any amp testing, it is paramount to make sure that the battery is good. If there is any doubt, take it somewhere to get it tested. Otherwise, false readings aren't worth much.

I have never taken off the ground (neg) cable, just the positive to measure any possible draw. I would think you could, just never have done it.
This guy does:
How To Perform a Parasitic Draw Test - EricTheCarGuy - YouTube

Maybe I'm looking at the video wrong, but isn't he pulling the ground (black wire) for his test?

The load test last night showed the battery was fine. I just don't understand why it is draining just sitting there. Can I check the alternator first by disconnecting it, and then putting in the battery? Since when it was connected before the battery was constantly being drawn from. This way at least I know i could rule out the alternator as the culprit.

 

[98OzarksRunner]

I'd pull the positive side so you can separate the wire to the starter from the wire to the fuse panel. It's unlikely to be anything in the starter but isolating the circuits as much as possible will remove variables (e.g. it would be a pain to spend hours removing all the fuses and finding nothing then unhook the wire to the starter and find that's the problem - eliminate that first).

There's really no difference with unhooking the positive verses negative (except, as noted above, you can isolate the feeds better on the positive side). You hook up jumper cables positive first and hook the negative to a ground somewhere off the battery. This is to get the sparks away from any hydrogen discharge from the battery to avoid BOOM! It has nothing to do with protecting the circuits.

 

[MStudt]

I'd pull the positive side so you can separate the wire to the starter from the wire to the fuse panel. It's unlikely to be anything in the starter but isolating the circuits as much as possible will remove variables (e.g. it would be a pain to spend hours removing all the fuses and finding nothing then unhook the wire to the starter and find that's the problem - eliminate that first).

That makes sense. What about isolating the alt to see if it's bad? Would unplugging and unbolting the wire from the alt show me if it is drawing the volts from the battery?

 

[TheDurk]

I personally always test on the ground side. It is just good practice to always pull the ground first (and connect last) whenever you remove and install a battery. Electrically, either will work the same to measure the drain. The difference is you can get a nice shock from the positive wire if you or a wrench touches the car at any conducting point while you, or the wrench, are in contact with the positive. If you work only on the ground side, you can touch car, cable and terminal freely and not get zapped or cause major sparkage. Just don't get between cable and terminal; you MIGHT feel that if there were a very major drain.

You can still pull the starter wire off the positive while doing the test itself on the negative. You just pull the starter wire with the ground off and you can leave the big terminal connected on the positive side while you do it.

I grew up working on tractors where there is always lots of conducting metal close to the battery and the intelligence of ground off first, on last is learned the hard way, quickly.

 

[MStudt]

I personally always test on the ground side. It is just good practice to always pull the ground first (and connect last) whenever you remove and install a battery. Electrically, either will work the same to measure the drain. The difference is you can get a nice shock from the positive wire if you or a wrench touches the car at any conducting point while you, or the wrench, are in contact with the positive. If you work only on the ground side, you can touch car, cable and terminal freely and not get zapped or cause major sparkage. Just don't get between cable and terminal; you MIGHT feel that if there were a very major drain.

You can still pull the starter wire off the positive while doing the test itself on the negative. You just pull the starter wire with the ground off and you can leave the big terminal connected on the positive side while you do it.

I grew up working on tractors where there is always lots of conducting metal close to the battery and the intelligence of ground off first, on last is learned the hard way, quickly.

I think I'll go with the negative side as well. I'm going to start with starting to car and turning as much crap on as I can. The turn it off and hookup a test light on the negative side. Once that is hooked up I'll pull the wire off. Apparently, if you hookup the light and then pull the wire you can see if you have a drain. If the test light turns on there is a drain, and the brighter the light the bigger the drain.

 

[98OzarksRunner]

I personally always test on the ground side. It is just good practice to always pull the ground first (and connect last) whenever you remove and install a battery. Electrically, either will work the same to measure the drain. The difference is you can get a nice shock from the positive wire if you or a wrench touches the car at any conducting point while you, or the wrench, are in contact with the positive.

Yes that's true. You do have to be careful while wrenching on the battery cable clamp.

 

[MStudt]

Got home and did some testing. I started by checking the battery, and it stayed at 12.50 volts all day today. Took the battery out to the car and hooked up only the positive terminal to the battery. I hooked up the volt meter and the volts started to drop instantly. Then I switched my meter to the 10a setting (like the video suggested) and was drawing between .14 and .10 amps on the negative side. After holding the leads on the terminal and the connector it dropped down to .05 amps. I did this without starting the car.

Next I hooked the negative up and started the car. I turned everything on, radio, lights, heater, and defrost Next I shoved a point under the negative connector, the other point on the connector, and then pulled them apart. The keeps the circuit closed and keeps are relays open/stuck/or broke. At this point the meter was reading .04 amp being drawn.

I really wonder if I'm chasing a ghost here. Maybe the culprit is the fact that I really haven't driven this over the last couple months. The longest drive this has been on was about 10 miles into town, and about 10 back out of town two months ago. Or, maybe it is the alternator and now I need to find out how to test it.

 

[LittleCaesar]

A quick way to check the ALT function is to put your multimeter on the leads of the battery right after you crank it, take the reading, drive around for a good 15 to 20 minutes, come back, and take another reading. You should see an initial reading of about 14.2volts, then should drop down to 13.3 to 13.7 after the drive depending on the condition of the battery.

My uncle's mechanic once said to not leave a battery hooked up for over ten days. I killed an Interstate by doing such. Maybe a Battery Tender is in your future if your 4runner does not get used too often.

Any parasitic draw BTW?

 

[TheDurk]

A quick way to check the ALT function is to put your multimeter on the leads of the battery right after you crank it, take the reading, drive around for a good 15 to 20 minutes, come back, and take another reading. You should see an initial reading of about 14.2volts, then should drop down to 13.3 to 13.7 after the drive depending on the condition of the battery.

My uncle's mechanic once said to not leave a battery hooked up for over ten days. I killed an Interstate by doing such. Maybe a Battery Tender is in your future if your 4runner does not get used too often.

Any parasitic draw BTW?

Well, it sounds like he has 40-50 mA parasitic draw, which is normal. A decent battery should go two or three weeks at that rate, at least.

I was in Brazil for six weeks last winter, and I forgot to pull the cable before I left as I usually do when parking for two weeks or more (my number is 14, not 10 but I am sure either is fine.) She started right up when I got back and I'm still using that battery.

That said, something like 30 minutes total driving over a few months is leaving the OP with a serious electrical deficit, so to speak. Verify your charging volts like Little Caesar said, and then drive it more or get a battery maintainer. Walmart has Schumachers that are great.

 

[98OzarksRunner]

Letting a car sit with the battery hooked up is usually not a problem. I had a 65 Mustang (sold last October, Optima battery) that I stored all winter. I would drive it a couple of times between November and March, but usually it sat for 6 to 8 weeks at a time. It started up without any issues, and it had EFI so it
was powering the ECM all winter.

My 98 4Runner sat for so long the first summer after I bought it (2011) that birds built a nest in the back wheel well. It started every time I tried, with a WalMart cheapo Exide battery.

A battery tender is a good idea if the car sits for 4 to 6 months but normally it's not required. The electronics (clock, radio, ECM) will draw a little current but not enough to kill a battery, unless it's a bad battery.

My guess is that the battery is bad and won't hold a charge with a load, even though it tested good. It's possible there is a parasitic load, but even a load of 2 or 3 amps won't draw a battery down enough to see on a meter for several hours. If it is dropping enough that you can watch the voltage go down on a meter, with no more than an amp load, it's probably a bad battery.

 

[TheDurk]

Letting a car sit with the battery hooked up is usually not a problem. I had a 65 Mustang (sold last October, Optima battery) that I stored all winter. I would drive it a couple of times between November and March, but usually it sat for 6 to 8 weeks at a time. It started up without any issues, and it had EFI so it
was powering the ECM all winter.

My 98 4Runner sat for so long the first summer after I bought it (2011) that birds built a nest in the back wheel well. It started every time I tried, with a WalMart cheapo Exide battery.

A battery tender is a good idea if the car sits for 4 to 6 months but normally it's not required. The electronics (clock, radio, ECM) will draw a little current but not enough to kill a battery, unless it's a bad battery.

My guess is that the battery is bad and won't hold a charge with a load, even though it tested good. It's possible there is a parasitic load, but even a load of 2 or 3 amps won't draw a battery down enough to see on a meter for several hours. If it is dropping enough that you can watch the voltage go down on a meter, with no more than an amp load, it's probably a bad battery.

The 'stang didn't have keyless entry or an alarm, I suspect, or a digital clock-equipped stereo with a full-time draw. This case is not just about the time between starts, it's about total running time. It's takes a good half-hour at least at better than idle to bring a reasonably discharged battery back to full charge.

As to the voltage thing, I would need specifics as to voltages, time and conditions to draw any conclusion. If it is straight off the charger, even a minimum load might be able to start to run down the 'surface charge' that goes away very quickly. You should always pop your highs on for a minute or two before taking an initial voltage reading for this reason, when doing any test on like that on a battery. See #6 in the link below:

BatteryStuff Articles | Guide to Understanding Flooded, AGM, and Gel Batteries

As to the maximum parking time, see #15 here:

http://www.batteryfaq.org/

The amount of time, usually referred to as "airport", "garage", or "storage" time, that you can leave your vehicle parked and still start your engine is dependent on such things as the battery's initial State-of-Charge (SoC), the Reserve Capacity (or amp hour capacity), the amount of natural self-discharge and parasitic (ignition key off) load, temperature and battery type (plate chemistry). Car manufacturers normally design for at least 14 days or more "airport" time; based on a fully charged battery in good condition, moderate weather, and no additions to the original car's parasitic load (for example, an after market alarm system). The number of days will vary based on the temperature. When a battery drops below 100% SoC, sulfation starts slowly occurring, and this will reduce the capacity of the battery and if left unchecked, will kill the battery.

If you leave your vehicle parked for more than two weeks, then you have several options:

15.1. The best long term (over one month) option is to continuously float charge your car battery by connecting a "smart" battery charger or a voltage regulated float charger because it will keep the battery fully charged, thus eliminating sulfation. If there is no AC power available, use a five watt (or greater) solar float charger. These options will allow you to park you vehicle indefinitely, but the battery should be checked periodically. You will need a "float" charging voltage between 13.2 and 13.8 VDC at 80° F (26.7° C) and at least .5 amps (500 milliamps) to overcome the vehicle's parasitic load and the natural self-discharge of the battery. Do not use a cheap "trickle" charger, because it will overcharge your battery and dry out the electrolyte.

15.2. Disconnect the grounded battery cable (which is normally the NEGATIVE (-) cable) to remove the parasitic load, but be sure that you have saved any security codes or radio stations presets that will have to be reprogrammed, but the battery's natural self-discharge will continue. This option will work from one month to six months depending battery type and temperature.

15.3. Replace the battery with the largest AGM (Ca/Ca) or Spiral Wound AGM VRLA battery that will fit with very low self-discharge rates. For periods greater than two months, also disconnect the grounded battery cable to remove the parasitic load. This option will work for six months to twelve months depending battery type and temperature.

15.4. Install a battery with a larger reserve capacity or connect an identical battery in parallel, but the battery's natural self-discharge will continue. For periods greater than two months, also disconnect the grounded battery cable to remove the parasitic load. This option will work for two months to twelve months depending battery type and temperature.

15.5. Replace the battery when you are ready to drive the vehicle again, especially if the battery is over three years old and in a hot climate.

15.6. Have someone drive your car during the day at highway speeds every two weeks for at least 15 minutes to keep the battery charged.

15.7. Jump start the battery and hope that there is no latent damage.

15.8. Install a low voltage disconnect. This is especially helpful if the driver forgets to turn the headlights off.

 

[MStudt]

A quick way to check the ALT function is to put your multimeter on the leads of the battery right after you crank it, take the reading, drive around for a good 15 to 20 minutes, come back, and take another reading. You should see an initial reading of about 14.2volts, then should drop down to 13.3 to 13.7 after the drive depending on the condition of the battery.

Any parasitic draw BTW?

It had a 40mA draw when I checked it. I'm fairly certain there is no issue with the battery or a parasitic drain coming from the interior. However, I'm still not convinced about the alternator. The alt is definitely charging the battery while the car is on, as I have test the volts at 14.8 while running. As soon as the car is turned off though, the volts dropped to 12.7, and within a couple minutes the volts were at 12.33.

Well, it sounds like he has 40-50 mA parasitic draw, which is normal. A decent battery should go two or three weeks at that rate, at least.

I was in Brazil for six weeks last winter, and I forgot to pull the cable before I left as I usually do when parking for two weeks or more (my number is 14, not 10 but I am sure either is fine.) She started right up when I got back and I'm still using that battery.

That said, something like 30 minutes total driving over a few months is leaving the OP with a serious electrical deficit, so to speak. Verify your charging volts like Little Caesar said, and then drive it more or get a battery maintainer. Walmart has Schumachers that are great.

On my jeep I sold to buy the 4runner. I could let that thing sit for a couple months and still start it up with no issues.

Letting a car sit with the battery hooked up is usually not a problem. I had a 65 Mustang (sold last October, Optima battery) that I stored all winter. I would drive it a couple of times between November and March, but usually it sat for 6 to 8 weeks at a time. It started up without any issues, and it had EFI so it
was powering the ECM all winter.

My 98 4Runner sat for so long the first summer after I bought it (2011) that birds built a nest in the back wheel well. It started every time I tried, with a WalMart cheapo Exide battery.

A battery tender is a good idea if the car sits for 4 to 6 months but normally it's not required. The electronics (clock, radio, ECM) will draw a little current but not enough to kill a battery, unless it's a bad battery.

My guess is that the battery is bad and won't hold a charge with a load, even though it tested good. It's possible there is a parasitic load, but even a load of 2 or 3 amps won't draw a battery down enough to see on a meter for several hours. If it is dropping enough that you can watch the voltage go down on a meter, with no more than an amp load, it's probably a bad battery.

Is it possible that the battery can hold a charge not being connected but still be bad? Last night my battery was still testing at 12.50 volts, same is it did before I went to work yesterday, and this morning as well. I just don't understand way the volts start dropping as soon as i connect the positive terminal. Tonight I'll try unhooking the alternator and see if the draw goes away. I've been reading that if you alternator has a bad diode the volts can be drawn back to the alternator. Apparently the diodes are what starts the volts from returning, and if they are bad it can drain your battery.

 

[MStudt]

The 'stang didn't have keyless entry or an alarm, I suspect, or a digital clock-equipped stereo with a full-time draw. This case is not just about the time between starts, it's about total running time. It's takes a good half-hour at least at better than idle to bring a reasonably discharged battery back to full charge.

As to the voltage thing, I would need specifics as to voltages, time and conditions to draw any conclusion. If it is straight off the charger, even a minimum load might be able to start to run down the 'surface charge' that goes away very quickly. You should always pop your highs on for a minute or two before taking an initial voltage reading for this reason, when doing any test on like that on a battery. See #6 in the link below:

BatteryStuff Articles | Guide to Understanding Flooded, AGM, and Gel Batteries

As to the maximum parking time, see #15 here:

Car and Deep Cycle Battery FAQ, Battery Manufacturers and Brand Names List, and

After next week everything will be changing with this. The only reason it has been sitting so long was to build it up. It first sat for a month waiting on a lift, then another month waiting on rims a tires, then another month for spacers, and now here we are. My question is, why did this happen two months? Technically it has been sitting for the same length of time.

 

[MStudt]

Amps between negative post is .003 and between positive post is .003. With both posts hooked up the volts are dropping. With positive post only hooked up the volts are dropping. With the negative post hooked up the volts stay the same.

 

[98OzarksRunner]

Amps between negative post is .003 and between positive post is .003. With both posts hooked up the volts are dropping. With positive post only hooked up the volts are dropping. With the negative post hooked up the volts stay the same.

That doesn't make sense to me. If both posts aren't connected there is no current flowing (except through the amp meter if it is in series with the battery). Are you saying that if you hook the positive lead to the battery but not the negative lead the voltage drops?

The current (amps) will be the same whether measured on the positive or negative side. 3 milliamps (.003 amps) parasitic draw is not enough to drain a battery in months (perhaps years).

After next week everything will be changing with this. The only reason it has been sitting so long was to build it up. It first sat for a month waiting on a lift, then another month waiting on rims a tires, then another month for spacers, and now here we are. My question is, why did this happen two months? Technically it has been sitting for the same length of time.

I can see how the battery might have gone down sitting for two months but it seems you are saying that it won't stay up now. If that's the case, the battery has probably gone bad, perhaps from being discharged for those two months, though I doubt a battery would go bad in that length of time (unless it wasn't filled or a defective battery). As I noted earlier, my 98 4Runner sat for that long and started right up and charged fine. I had an 01 Firebird my dad gave me a couple of years ago and it would sit for that long regularly and didn't hurt the battery.