Did the service department try to rip me off?

[blackrifle01]

Thought I found an honest dealership, so I take my 4R in for service. Then they pull the recommended maintenance on me:

Recommended maintenance

"Because ethanol in gas is causing deposits, recommending to flush the injectors, clean the intake system, clean the catalytic converter systems, do a combustion chamber de-carbon"

Total? $658 ON TOP of whatever else they charged for routine service. Funny thing is the guy told me it wouldn't take any longer to get done than what they quoted for the routine maintenance.

This is everything a $7-$8 bottle of seafoam and 15 minutes would do (or so I've read). Am I right in my assessment?

If I'm right, then this is a lesson where doing my homework in car care paid off. Glad to have this forum around. I wish I had my own place to work on my car. Otherwise I would not bring it to the dealer at all.

 

[20034RunnerV84x2]

Sea foam does just fine. Tore down a engine with 205k afte a sea foam and it looked like it had 80k. Did it to my 03 not too long ago and it idles smoother, and saw a .5-1 MPG increase, after sparkplugs should go up even more. May only have 59k but the last owner didnt know the plugs go for longer than 30k (it's a V8). Ramble done.

 

[jimithing]

Uh, yeah...is that all labor? I'd ask them exactly how they came to that price. Seems pretty ridiculous to me.

 

[DC runner]

Alright. I might get flamed here...
but. The market supports what the market supports. This is basic ECON 101. With the exception of a few cases, most people under 30 haven't actually found a "corrupt" dealer. I wish we would STOP throwing that terminology around. Your toyota dealer doesn't put saw dust in the tranny, roll back the odometer or any of the 1000 other things REAL CORRUPT dealers used to do.

It doesn't happen. Laws have strengthen since the 30's-60's when this **** happened.

The economy ****ING sucks. The margins on cars are getting smaller and smaller. Toyota proper keeps MOST of the money. We expect dealerships to have fancy new buildings with state of the art equipment. Shinny floors and certified techs. We expect them to CARRY every ****ing part imaginable and GET pissed when they have to order it. Inventory NOT SOLD is money lost. Every obscure part they hold in inventory, that they don't sell, is money gone.


ALL of this PLUS providing their employee's with a living wage.. costs a TON OF ****ING money man. How exactly do you expect them to do all that? They charge significantly MORE for service. This is a reality. There is a reason that ****ty hole in the wall garage in the boonies can charge much, much less.

We continue to hear this "dealer ripped me off" comments which try to imply they are not honest or corrupt or *******s. This is 99% of the time NOT the case. I have never met a "corrupt" dealer... the legal liability is too ****ing high.


They charge more money. Get over it. I swear. Do people sleep through basic ECON classes in high school? Do we just not teach economic theory anymore?????

Dealerships at this point, to EVEN stay open, have to make profit off of service. They have to. Before everyone *****es about that... understand that American's are able to afford cars more than any other nation on the planet. We have developed a system that makes an affordable care for everyone... it also means that the margins are NO WHERE near as awesome as people think. Lights, water, equipment, workers.. buildings.. **** costs money.

 

[MikeInNH]

While I agree dealerships do charge more money...and they have higher expenses....

I also agree that the OP is getting ripped off.

Sorry...but those services are NOT needed. They are called dealer enhanced revenues. NOT needed service in my opinion is called getting ripped off. I've NEVER EVER had any of those services done on ANY vehicle I've owned and have kept several well past the 300k mile mark.

 

[Sungod]

I would ask where Toyota makes the recommendation that the service is needed.

 

[jimithing]

I've got no problem with car dealerships or any other repair facility charging a fair rate for their work. And I understand dealerships may charge a little more than an outside shop because they've got more overhead...But $658 for the service described in the original post is ridiculous. That goes beyond charging a premium for Toyota service. It borders on immoral IMO - it's preying on people who may not know any better. In this case the OP at least knows enough to check into it a little more but how many people do you think just go ahead with the service because their service adviser says it's needed? Wanting a cheap laptop or 4Runner is consumerism. This is not.

 

[ARK_SWAMP_RIDER]

I would agree, you pay more for the dealer to do the work, and its not a corrupt dealer. However, the key in this for me is that they said it would take no longer to do all this than a normal maintenance. That definitely seems odd to me, would definitely think twice about that. Sounds to me like they're ripping you off, but that's just my opinion. I'd really like to see parts/labor for whatever they're planning to do.

 

[MikeInNH]

I would agree, you pay more for the dealer to do the work, and its not a corrupt dealer.

Completely disagree with that....If they are saying you need this type of service...they are corrupt. This service is NOT needed..and is just a dealer revenue service.

 

[ARK_SWAMP_RIDER]

Completely disagree with that....If they are saying you need this type of service...they are corrupt. This service is NOT needed..and is just a dealer revenue service.

My statement was more general in terms, wasn't meaning this particular case. You'll see that I also agree this is a rip off. However if this type if service wasn't at least somewhat beneficial, why do we bother with things like sea foam? This approach to the service, no, but the actual service can be beneficial.

Another example. I had a vibration coming from my engine, I couldn't track it down. Figured I'd take it to a dealer since they're only a block from my work. Turns out they wanted $70 just to look at it, and I declined. Later I took it to an individual shop that I've used before. Guy looked at it, found a missing bolt, replaced it, and ten minutes later sent me on my way, no charge.

Does this mean the dealer tried to rip me off, I don't think so. That's just their diagnostic rate, you are the one who chooses what it's worth to you.To me, it's just like paying retail for an item versus buying online, doesn't mean one is a ripoff just because it's cheaper elsewhere.

Again, i'm speaking in general terms which is what my initial statement was targeted at. I obviously think somethings out of place in the op's scenario.

 

[kai920]

I agree, dealer service shops are corrupt. I don't trust them at all.

When we bought my wife's Certified Pre Owned Camry from a dealership, we bought the Landcar maintenance which is for oil changes, etc. I took it in yesterday for service.

Within an hour a service advisor called me and told me it was done. He also told me they looked at the fuel injectors and they were dirty, as well as the throttle body and that I need to have the fuel injection system cleaned. Now, granted this isn't a huge cost. But, I am smart enough to know that they didn't break down the engine and inspect the injectors to find out they were dirty for free, and change to oil, rotate the tires, and wash the car all within an hour. I didn't ask them too and they don't do it on their own.

I guess it possible the tech has X-ray vision and was able to inspect the injectors. Sure.

I also know that they recommend this service every 100k, and that I already had it done at 73k, at the same dealership. They didn't even bother to check the records before they tried to get more $ out of me. I called the advisor on it, and he didn't say anything else.

They also recommended I change the spark plugs for a cost of $300 on my wife's 3.0 V6. They can charge whatever they want, but that doesn't mean I'll pay for it. I'm not a fool, I do my research and I know what needs to be done and doesn't.

Bottom line, I think dealerships take advantage of people who will agree to anything being done because Toyota recommends it and they must know better. That makes them dishonest.

 

[TRDCal]

Did the OP even mention what his mileage is at? Eventually in a vehicles life it is a good idea to clean the injectors/whatever else they did. I mean sure Seafoam is great, but an $8 bottle of Seafoam isn't gonna do the same job that $1000+ in equipment the dealer uses. I'm not saying that there prices are good but honestly, your not driving a Hyunda Accent here, its a $40,000 SUV so its gonna cost a bit to maintain it.

I'm not on the dealers side, I have my own experiences with a corrupt dealer. However, I do kinda agree with routine maintenance, my 4runner has 125,000miles and it drives like it just left the factory...why? two reason, its a Toyota and because the previous owner did all the recommend maintenance.

 

[ARK_SWAMP_RIDER]

Did the OP even mention what his mileage is at? Eventually in a vehicles life it is a good idea to clean the injectors/whatever else they did. I mean sure Seafoam is great, but an $8 bottle of Seafoam isn't gonna do the same job that $1000+ in equipment the dealer uses. I'm not saying that there prices are good but honestly, your not driving a Hyunda Accent here, its a $40,000 SUV so its gonna cost a bit to maintain it.

I'm not on the dealers side, I have my own experiences with a corrupt dealer. However, I do kinda agree with routine maintenance, my 4runner has 125,000miles and it drives like it just left the factory...why? two reason, its a Toyota and because the previous owner did all the recommend maintenance.

I agree, but how is the shop gonna do all that, plus standard maintenance, all in the same amount of time as a normal service .

I'm not saying there aren't crooked shops out there, but it's not just Toyota. I've had independent shops do exactly the same thing. You take it in for one thing, they come back with a list of unrelated things that need fixed. It just seems dealers are all getting a bad rep, but that's not quite fair.

 

[034RUNNER]

Having worked at a few dealerships, trust me when I say they all try to screw you when it comes to service especially.

Whenever you can, try to talk to the mechanic directly. His story is almost always different from the advisers.

Dealers typically do charge more in just about all cases. I could give you guys story after story. Most people do not go on car forums, and lots more people don't really care about their car. They'll do whatever the dealer says without trying to make sense of it all. Case in point: how they try to screw over women especially (I know better).

Personally, with my 4R a little over 90k now (which is nothing compared to some of you!), I did the 90k service on my own. I was reading up for a few days what the dealer was charging and whatnot. If you're able to do it yourself, you will save money. Of course, not everyone has the abilities.

OP, is there another dealer you can check out?

 

[blackrifle01]

Did the OP even mention what his mileage is at? Eventually in a vehicles life it is a good idea to clean the injectors/whatever else they did. I mean sure Seafoam is great, but an $8 bottle of Seafoam isn't gonna do the same job that $1000+ in equipment the dealer uses. I'm not saying that there prices are good but honestly, your not driving a Hyunda Accent here, its a $40,000 SUV so its gonna cost a bit to maintain it.

I'm not on the dealers side, I have my own experiences with a corrupt dealer. However, I do kinda agree with routine maintenance, my 4runner has 125,000miles and it drives like it just left the factory...why? two reason, its a Toyota and because the previous owner did all the recommend maintenance.

My 4R is at 65K with all maintenance done at the correct intervals with all maintenance records in my possession. Do I need more than a bottle or two of sea foam at this mileage?

The whole "won't take any longer to do" and what they were planning on doing did not add up. Plus, my understanding is that sea foam does exactly what they were proposing. I think they tried to take advantage of me, which is pretty disappointing. I *thought* they were a good dealer to work with since I don't have my own space to do my own maintenance and they're close to my work location.

Are they corrupt? I can't make that call. But what they wanted me to do to my 4R sounded very fishy.

 

[blackrifle01]

Alright. I might get flamed here...
but. The market supports what the market supports. This is basic ECON 101. With the exception of a few cases, most people under 30 haven't actually found a "corrupt" dealer. I wish we would STOP throwing that terminology around. Your toyota dealer doesn't put saw dust in the tranny, roll back the odometer or any of the 1000 other things REAL CORRUPT dealers used to do.

It doesn't happen. Laws have strengthen since the 30's-60's when this **** happened.

The economy ****ING sucks. The margins on cars are getting smaller and smaller. Toyota proper keeps MOST of the money. We expect dealerships to have fancy new buildings with state of the art equipment. Shinny floors and certified techs. We expect them to CARRY every ****ing part imaginable and GET pissed when they have to order it. Inventory NOT SOLD is money lost. Every obscure part they hold in inventory, that they don't sell, is money gone.


ALL of this PLUS providing their employee's with a living wage.. costs a TON OF ****ING money man. How exactly do you expect them to do all that? They charge significantly MORE for service. This is a reality. There is a reason that ****ty hole in the wall garage in the boonies can charge much, much less.

We continue to hear this "dealer ripped me off" comments which try to imply they are not honest or corrupt or *******s. This is 99% of the time NOT the case. I have never met a "corrupt" dealer... the legal liability is too ****ing high.


They charge more money. Get over it. I swear. Do people sleep through basic ECON classes in high school? Do we just not teach economic theory anymore?????

Dealerships at this point, to EVEN stay open, have to make profit off of service. They have to. Before everyone *****es about that... understand that American's are able to afford cars more than any other nation on the planet. We have developed a system that makes an affordable care for everyone... it also means that the margins are NO WHERE near as awesome as people think. Lights, water, equipment, workers.. buildings.. **** costs money.

One of my degrees is in Economics...so I'm not sure I agree with you that this is a question of price points supported by the market or that consumers questioning pricing for service or the need of certain types of service shows a lack of basic Econ 101 understanding. Part of "Econ 101" is recognizing that there are arbitrage opportunities in situations of asymmetric information. How you take advantage of that opportunity is more "Business 101". Profit is necessary to run a business. Yes, we understand that. However, how you go about making that profit can be either a limiting or beneficial factor on future revenue. You can either cower down to the pressures of the down economy and try ways to make money that piss off your customer base, or you could drive additional value for each dollar of that your customer spends with you and enhance that relationship. Using a down economy to take advantage of your customer is poor business sense.

If I did not accept the fact that the dealer (any dealer) charges more money, i would not have brought my vehicle to them. However, simply because I brought my 4R to them does not mean I am a fool and they can trick me into any absurd service. As a consumer, I have an obligation to question the price/value dynamic of any transaction that I am a part of. And in a down economy, the pressure is even greater on the consumer side to assess/reassess the value derived from purchases. Hence, why I did not go for this service...I did my homework.

A down economy and business pressures to keep the lights on is no excuse to mislead consumers. Especially in this age of "smart" consumers where everyone has access to the internet and forums like this. What this dealer tried to pull on me is evidence of a backward "us vs. them" business mentality. It's poor customer service at best. And a sign of "corruption" at its worst.

Dealers and their service departments in general would do themselves a great benefit if they recognized that the arbitrage opportunity due to asymmetric information is disappearing because of forums like this and social media outlets in general. They need to start differentiating themselves and driving value in a different way. I will say that this dealer has lost any future revenue and subsequent profit they would have gotten from my relationship.

I'm sure dealers have the same thoughts as what you depicted in your post. It just simply tells me that they recognize the changing dynamics in their customer base, but refuse to change their behavior to go a long with it.

But then again, I bet most dealers are "honest" folks. They just have a pretty big shadow to step out of as a result of their industry past. Actions like this sets them back.

 

[TRDCal]

I agree, but how is the shop gonna do all that, plus standard maintenance, all in the same amount of time as a normal service .

Hahaha...they're just that good ok! lol. I agree tho, that seems a bit impossible.

My 4R is at 65K with all maintenance done at the correct intervals with all maintenance records in my possession. Do I need more than a bottle or two of sea foam at this mileage?

Are they corrupt?

At that mileage it's your call, if I had the spare cash lying around, I would do it. If I was tight for cash, I would Seafoam it now and then once you start approaching 100,000-120,000miles I would have the injectors cleaned with the proper equipment. Having said that, there are many other garages that can flush your injectors (for propably cheaper too!) also. Also at that mileage I would think about replacing diff + tranny fluids. Unfortunately for you, you're at an expensive maintenance interval with your 4runner right now.

Also, just a small arguement for the dealers side, its not like there doing the work and then charging you without asking first. They simple say you need this, this and this but its still up to you if it gets done or not. They can try and rip you of but its always up to you wheither they actually do or not.

 

[blackrifle01]

Having worked at a few dealerships, trust me when I say they all try to screw you when it comes to service especially.

Whenever you can, try to talk to the mechanic directly. His story is almost always different from the advisers.

Dealers typically do charge more in just about all cases. I could give you guys story after story. Most people do not go on car forums, and lots more people don't really care about their car. They'll do whatever the dealer says without trying to make sense of it all. Case in point: how they try to screw over women especially (I know better).

Personally, with my 4R a little over 90k now (which is nothing compared to some of you!), I did the 90k service on my own. I was reading up for a few days what the dealer was charging and whatnot. If you're able to do it yourself, you will save money. Of course, not everyone has the abilities.

OP, is there another dealer you can check out?

Yes, there are. However, this episode encourages me to do some legwork and find a place where I can start doing my own service. I'll pay extra for someone to do it for me, but I'm getting tired of being treated like a fool.

 

[kai920]

I agree with you here. Find a reputable independent shop. I was lucky enough to find a small shop owned by a guy who used to be a Toyota tech. Runs his own import shop now.

We actually met looking at the same 4Runner that was for sale. Neither here nor there but he actually was recommended to me prior to that by someone here on the forum. He earned my trust with how he treated me when I first used his shop. Did the same work that the dealer wanted to do for $200 less with OEM parts.

The only reason I go to the dealer now is because we already purchased a Landcar maintenance package from the dealer when we bought my wife's Camry.

 

[MidwestT4R]

I have had both good and bad experiences at the same dealer.

When my 4runner was still under the certified warranty I had the timing belt changed. They replaced the water pump under the warranty for free. Then they noticed that both outer front cv boots were leaking. They replaced both of them for free.

But this is the same dealer that told me my front brake pads were metal on metal. I declined the service as I do my own brakes. When I got home and pulled the tires there was over 3 mm left on the pads. I waited another 8 months to do the work myself.

Then I had them replace the brake fluid. They called and said the front steering rack and the struts were leaking and needed replacement. About 2300 total. I declined and took the truck to my local shop. They threw it up on the rack and promptly told me that neither were leaking. Only charged me 20 bucks for the inspection.

My impression is the same as was mentioned earlier. In my first scenario the tech doing the work just replaced the water pump as it was all apart. Noticed the leaking CV boots and just did the work. The second scenario was a service advisor who latched onto a passing comment from me about seeing a drip on the floor (which was from an oil change) and thought that he could get me to spring for unnecessary work.

The independent shop by me had an interesting comment when I called to see if he could check the leaks on the struts and steering rack. He said the dealers have been struggling a bit in this economy and that he has been getting a lot of calls from people like me whose dealer recommended a really expensive repair. Urged me to bring it in. Was it BS? I don't think so as he only ended up charging me the 20 bucks and telling me my truck is fine.