Drive shaft noise or U joint noise (LEXUS 4/06 TSB page 18) aka Driveshaft thump/bump
- Thread starter rorad
- Start date
blueleezard
New member
update etc.
All:
Just a quick note on a dark, drizzly, early Saturday AM in Banff, AB ...
... the dreaded driveline "clunk" hasn't returned, *but* about a week ago, the day after returning from a very fast and trouble-free 1800KM trip to Prince George, BC and back, the following took place -- I hope this report is useful / helpful for fellow T4R V8 Sport owners:
• in the AM on the day after we got back from the trip, the wife drove the T4R into town for some shopping, then drove back up the hill to our place, noted a loud "clanking / grinding" noise and high-frequency front-end vibration that started just a short distance from home; parked the T4R in the garage [no evidence of this beforehand, ever]
• I had a look underneath -- crawled around with a flashlight, examined everything I could think of: no dripping or sprayed fluid, no leaking anywhere, nothing obviously loose or hanging, no weird deposits on the wheels, no loose universals, driveshafts all OK, no "play" in any wheel when violently shaken from the top of the tires, no *nothing* in evidence
• immediate test drive -- loud grinding / clanking from front RH wheel especially on a slow turn in any direction
• close examination of the "pan" behind the brake on the front wheel -- a rock jammed in there? Couldn't tell ... but mechanically-inclined neighbours thought so [I guess anyone can have an opinion!!]
• quick drive back down the hill to town -- moderate grinding / clanking in evidence -- but then, after about one KM at the first 90-degree LH turn, *nothing* -- everything smooth as silk, no noise, no grinding, absolutely nothing
• U turn and back up the hill -- nothing
• drive into the city, about 30KM, to the local indie shop that does the post-warranty work on the unit
• up on the lift [this was scheduled to take place soon anyway] -- full oil change / filter / lube / service and tire/wheel rotation, front to back -- but, testing on the hoist revealed loud clanking / grinding from front RH wheel
• after front RH wheel is pulled, diagnosis: problem with front RH wheel bearing
• solution: replacement
• disassembly revealed spindle in very good condition, but bearing basket was completely dry -- no sign of any grease whatsoever -- with very high temperature discoloration and basket with many fractures and only 75% intact -- 25% was completely missing, including the roller bearings
• replacement of bearing basket, and reassembly
• so far, replacement appears to have been completely successful; no problems / symptoms of any kind observed
Cost including labour, all parts and consumables, including one year warranty parts and labor [the original 160,000KM [100,000 mile] warranty on the vehicle expired some 10,000 KM ago] = CA$545.00.
All other bearings are 100%.
No other problems are in evidence ... still a great vehicle.
Anyone else out there with a similar experience?
Cheers to all :cheers:,
Blueleezard
All:
Just a quick note on a dark, drizzly, early Saturday AM in Banff, AB ...
... the dreaded driveline "clunk" hasn't returned, *but* about a week ago, the day after returning from a very fast and trouble-free 1800KM trip to Prince George, BC and back, the following took place -- I hope this report is useful / helpful for fellow T4R V8 Sport owners:
• in the AM on the day after we got back from the trip, the wife drove the T4R into town for some shopping, then drove back up the hill to our place, noted a loud "clanking / grinding" noise and high-frequency front-end vibration that started just a short distance from home; parked the T4R in the garage [no evidence of this beforehand, ever]
• I had a look underneath -- crawled around with a flashlight, examined everything I could think of: no dripping or sprayed fluid, no leaking anywhere, nothing obviously loose or hanging, no weird deposits on the wheels, no loose universals, driveshafts all OK, no "play" in any wheel when violently shaken from the top of the tires, no *nothing* in evidence
• immediate test drive -- loud grinding / clanking from front RH wheel especially on a slow turn in any direction
• close examination of the "pan" behind the brake on the front wheel -- a rock jammed in there? Couldn't tell ... but mechanically-inclined neighbours thought so [I guess anyone can have an opinion!!]
• quick drive back down the hill to town -- moderate grinding / clanking in evidence -- but then, after about one KM at the first 90-degree LH turn, *nothing* -- everything smooth as silk, no noise, no grinding, absolutely nothing
• U turn and back up the hill -- nothing
• drive into the city, about 30KM, to the local indie shop that does the post-warranty work on the unit
• up on the lift [this was scheduled to take place soon anyway] -- full oil change / filter / lube / service and tire/wheel rotation, front to back -- but, testing on the hoist revealed loud clanking / grinding from front RH wheel
• after front RH wheel is pulled, diagnosis: problem with front RH wheel bearing
• solution: replacement
• disassembly revealed spindle in very good condition, but bearing basket was completely dry -- no sign of any grease whatsoever -- with very high temperature discoloration and basket with many fractures and only 75% intact -- 25% was completely missing, including the roller bearings
• replacement of bearing basket, and reassembly
• so far, replacement appears to have been completely successful; no problems / symptoms of any kind observed
Cost including labour, all parts and consumables, including one year warranty parts and labor [the original 160,000KM [100,000 mile] warranty on the vehicle expired some 10,000 KM ago] = CA$545.00.
All other bearings are 100%.
No other problems are in evidence ... still a great vehicle.
Anyone else out there with a similar experience?
Cheers to all :cheers:,
Blueleezard
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No issues here.. Although I have a 2WD V8 model. Did you hit any bad potholes in the past? Perhaps any curb-checks? Usually wheel bearings fail after being subjected to some sort of impact or after being forced in a plane that is not part of the normal rotation of the wheel.
Good to hear it wasn't anything major, though.
So far I'm at ~115k miles and have not had a single failure on the vehicle since I purchased it except for the A/C relay, which was a known TSB. It lasted to just past 90k miles.
Good to hear it wasn't anything major, though.
So far I'm at ~115k miles and have not had a single failure on the vehicle since I purchased it except for the A/C relay, which was a known TSB. It lasted to just past 90k miles.
TeryT
New member
That's great. I was going to say that they have tightened up on quality since my 2003 model, but I now see you also have that year! Mine had several electronic & electromechanical failures early on. If I had paid out of pocket it would have cost me close to $7k getting the all fixed. But due to the 100k mile Platinum extended warranty I bought through a T4R.org member (Shaun) for $700, I haven't paid a single penny!
There has been nothing wrong with it in the past two years - yee haw! And now I have 93k on it.
And I'm happy to report that my local dealership, Right Toyota, has been great with all of this. They also solved my driveshaft clunk by replacing the drive shaft - no clunk in over two years & 30k miles!!!! Double YE HAW!!!:jump::driving::bouncy:
scottm
New member
Wow, quite a thread. I'm researching for my upcoming 4R purchase, what to expect. I hope you don't mind some thoughts on this from a not-yet-4R guy. The shaking-while-braking issue is possibly worn/loose suspension bushings. It was a problem on my '73 Capri, and on my '96 BMW 740iL, and a few cars in between. I've seen guys replace their entire brake systems only to fix it with new bushings.
Thoughts on the clunk: Be careful. Your driveshaft is like an air cylinder, when the inner shaft slides in it compresses an air pocket in the end like a piston in a cylinder, it's a nice setup. Air can escape through the seal, but it's a pretty tight seal. When you pump grease into the nipple at the end of the shaft, you're pressurizing the shaft and filling the end with grease. The pressurized shaft will hold pressure on the rear axle and prevent the clunk for a while, but it won't last, depends how tight your seals are. If you keep pumping in grease you'll eventually fill the cavity in the end of the driveshaft with grease instead of air. Grease will not compress! You can break things when your rear axle comes up and the driveshaft can't compress, expensive things, like transfer case housings. This has happened on a fairly new Land Cruiser to a very meticulous owner I know (not me, luckily). Many of us on the Land Cruiser site pull one end of the driveshaft out (4 bolts) and grease the splines by hand. Moly grease is best, should help with the binding. Don't use moly in U-joints or on roller bearings, do use it in CV-joints, sliding joints.
Hope this helps someone. Expect to hear much more from me when my used 4R gets here!
Thoughts on the clunk: Be careful. Your driveshaft is like an air cylinder, when the inner shaft slides in it compresses an air pocket in the end like a piston in a cylinder, it's a nice setup. Air can escape through the seal, but it's a pretty tight seal. When you pump grease into the nipple at the end of the shaft, you're pressurizing the shaft and filling the end with grease. The pressurized shaft will hold pressure on the rear axle and prevent the clunk for a while, but it won't last, depends how tight your seals are. If you keep pumping in grease you'll eventually fill the cavity in the end of the driveshaft with grease instead of air. Grease will not compress! You can break things when your rear axle comes up and the driveshaft can't compress, expensive things, like transfer case housings. This has happened on a fairly new Land Cruiser to a very meticulous owner I know (not me, luckily). Many of us on the Land Cruiser site pull one end of the driveshaft out (4 bolts) and grease the splines by hand. Moly grease is best, should help with the binding. Don't use moly in U-joints or on roller bearings, do use it in CV-joints, sliding joints.
Hope this helps someone. Expect to hear much more from me when my used 4R gets here!
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TeryT
New member
Thanks for the detailed explanation. It was a good reminder, as this has been discussed numerous times (i.e., grease not compressing).
Best wishes on your new one!
blueleezard
New member
Follow-up re: bearing etc.
The mechanical checks when I bought this unit used indicated no abuse, and everything about the vehicle suggests this was indeed the case. It was occasionally driven in mud and dust a bit, as you might expect here in SW Alberta, and I suppose it's always possible that abuse took place at some point -- you never know ... but anyway, the indie shop guys who are pretty trustworthy [I've been going to them for about 5 years now for both the Swede and this T4R] thought this situation was not on account of abuse, but a manufacturing defect that had stressed out over time and then failed. I had a very good look at the remains of the bearing basket after it was removed, and the fatigue cracks etc. looked more as though they were there on account of ongoing wear, rather than what you'd call a "one-time" impact -- lots of older, medium, long-term and then a small number of newer "spider" cracks and whatnot. It's a bit gut-wrenching to hold a bearing basket in your hand with 25% of the roller bearings missing, realizing that they've been scattered who knows where and you've been hauling your disabled grandson around assuming safety! So I'd like to say that it's a credit to Toyota T4R manufacture that even with a completely trashed front wheel bearing, things went very well regardless -- until the moment of complete failure. Anyway, from what I understand, a one-time shot [hitting a curb really, really hard at a weird angle, or maybe a nasty weekend of off-roading over killer boulders, etc.] would fracture the basket in what we might think of as a "fresh" way. There wouldn't be evidence of an ongoing history of what we might think of as a "failure cascade" [clearly the case with this bearing basket] -- in other words there wouldn't be a bunch of older cracks that in in my case were quite plain to see, indicating that the problem had been going on for some extended time [even with no evidence of a problem to the drivers!]. So, I suspect the indie guys were probably right -- the basket just wasn't a really good quality one [even Japan must have Friday vehicles, I suppose!], and maybe with a mild hit or two during its life, the bearing eventually gave up the ghost. I'm just glad it didn't happen on any homebound Hwy 16 straightaway or a sharp Icefields Highway curve. Seizing up at any good speed in those conditions would have been a bit of a problem.
Best wishes to all ...
Cheers / Blueleezard :beer:
The mechanical checks when I bought this unit used indicated no abuse, and everything about the vehicle suggests this was indeed the case. It was occasionally driven in mud and dust a bit, as you might expect here in SW Alberta, and I suppose it's always possible that abuse took place at some point -- you never know ... but anyway, the indie shop guys who are pretty trustworthy [I've been going to them for about 5 years now for both the Swede and this T4R] thought this situation was not on account of abuse, but a manufacturing defect that had stressed out over time and then failed. I had a very good look at the remains of the bearing basket after it was removed, and the fatigue cracks etc. looked more as though they were there on account of ongoing wear, rather than what you'd call a "one-time" impact -- lots of older, medium, long-term and then a small number of newer "spider" cracks and whatnot. It's a bit gut-wrenching to hold a bearing basket in your hand with 25% of the roller bearings missing, realizing that they've been scattered who knows where and you've been hauling your disabled grandson around assuming safety! So I'd like to say that it's a credit to Toyota T4R manufacture that even with a completely trashed front wheel bearing, things went very well regardless -- until the moment of complete failure. Anyway, from what I understand, a one-time shot [hitting a curb really, really hard at a weird angle, or maybe a nasty weekend of off-roading over killer boulders, etc.] would fracture the basket in what we might think of as a "fresh" way. There wouldn't be evidence of an ongoing history of what we might think of as a "failure cascade" [clearly the case with this bearing basket] -- in other words there wouldn't be a bunch of older cracks that in in my case were quite plain to see, indicating that the problem had been going on for some extended time [even with no evidence of a problem to the drivers!]. So, I suspect the indie guys were probably right -- the basket just wasn't a really good quality one [even Japan must have Friday vehicles, I suppose!], and maybe with a mild hit or two during its life, the bearing eventually gave up the ghost. I'm just glad it didn't happen on any homebound Hwy 16 straightaway or a sharp Icefields Highway curve. Seizing up at any good speed in those conditions would have been a bit of a problem.
Best wishes to all ...
Cheers / Blueleezard :beer:
Iowa4Runner
New member
Nice! Did Right Toyota give you a revised drive shaft or is it the same part number as the original? Maybe it was the Lexus GX470 drive shaft?
We're close to buying a new Highlander for my wife IF the dealership will provide a real fix for my '04 4Runner clunk problem. I could hand the service manager the Lexus TSB but he'd probably have no idea what to do with it.
Shaft Assy, Propeller (37110-6A480)
I don't want to start another thread but I need to see where everyone is at with this "clunking" problem. I have a 2003 4Runner Limited I bought used with 12K miles on it and within several month experienced this noise coming from the rear. We all agree that its a problem however, some of you had the drive shaft assembly replaced and it fixed it? I had it replaced and IT DID not fix it. Its back. This to me appears to be a design flaw by Toyota Engineering and nothing less. I would like a permanent fix and not to have to have it greased every 2.5K miles! That's a very poor design and something that would be done on universal joints years ago!
I read through most notes here but really see no conclusion? Any help would be greatly appreciated. So disappointed and its embarrassing when you have friends in the vehicle. This is my ONLY problem after adding 20K miles now...
I don't want to start another thread but I need to see where everyone is at with this "clunking" problem. I have a 2003 4Runner Limited I bought used with 12K miles on it and within several month experienced this noise coming from the rear. We all agree that its a problem however, some of you had the drive shaft assembly replaced and it fixed it? I had it replaced and IT DID not fix it. Its back. This to me appears to be a design flaw by Toyota Engineering and nothing less. I would like a permanent fix and not to have to have it greased every 2.5K miles! That's a very poor design and something that would be done on universal joints years ago!
I read through most notes here but really see no conclusion? Any help would be greatly appreciated. So disappointed and its embarrassing when you have friends in the vehicle. This is my ONLY problem after adding 20K miles now...
It is a design/engineering issue and Toyota refuses to issue a TSB and/or initiate a 'fix' for the driveline clunk.
They used a different grease and packed it tight with it and for two thousand miles, the clunk went away.
Unfortunately, the clunk returned in my 2007 V8 Sport.
One has to either deal with it or get rid of the otherwise excellent vehicle.
scottm
New member
Yike. The clunk went away because your driveshaft was pressurized like a huge hydraulic cylinder, not because it was lubricated. The pressure may have kept the driveshaft bound up preventing the "clunk", but it can do a lot of damage. Frame straightening shops use hydraulic cylinders that big to bend frames, you can do a lot of damage this way.
There is a problem I agree, but rarely will something like this have just one cause or one fix. It sounds like Toyota thought they could fix it on the Lexus with a driveshaft and control arms.
My theory: Toyota used some very soft suspension mounts to get a cushy ride. The rear axle is moving front-back too easily during braking/accelerating. When you brake, the rear axle pulls back, extending the driveshaft. At full-stop, the front and rear brakes keep the rear axle back. The soft, elastic rear suspension mounts are compressed rearward, ready to send the rear axle forward when you release the brakes. When you release brakes, there's a slight rearward motion of the truck as the rear axle & suspension starts forward, then a more abrupt forward motion as the axle & suspension hit the forward limits of the mounts. Clunk. The driveshaft has little to do with this, but dealerships have been reporting success with lubing the driveshaft, it masks the problem and costs little. New suspension arms apparently didn't solve the problem.
There was another post earlier about brake shaking. I've fixed that with new rubber suspension mounts on other cars, I suspect it's another clue that our suspension mounts are a little soft and/or sloppy. It may be a design problem that would be very expensive to fix and embarrassing to admit.
I'm looking forward to having this problem; where, oh where, is my 4R?
Oh, and I have over 20 years of mechanical engineering in mostly automotive applications, currently designing & building automated production machinery. And I fly for a major airline on the side to pay the bills.
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docfeelgood
New member
I've attached a pic...
2004 SR5 V6
2004 SR5 V6
The Toyota lead mechanic knew exactly what he was doing... and I was there to check out his work. He loaded up the same amount of the other grease as either he or I would normally use as per routine lubrication during maintenance.
GM had a similar problem in the early 2000-02 Yukons and GM came up with a reformulated grease that worked in conjunction with a 'cap' that took out a lot of the excess play in the driveline system.
Toyota supposedly knew about this problem right when they were designing the 4th Gen. 4Runners but proceeded to the build-out w/o changing/adapting the design to eliminate the clunk.
After I did all my research into the driveline clunk problem, I personally lost A LOT of respect for Toyota's short-cutting the design and pawning off a less than stellar design... ie: the clunk on to the buying public.
scottm
New member
He was certainly doing what he believed would work, it makes sense and it's a proven procedure.
If you've had one of these driveshafts apart, and looked down at that glob of grease you just squirted in, you'd wonder how it ever gets to the sliding splines. That's why a lot of Land Cruiser guys pull their driveshafts apart for greasing. There's a small air space in the end of the driveshaft, and you're pumping grease into it. Not a lot of grease, but percentage-wise, it's significant. It doesn't take too many pumps to see the driveshaft start to extend. And if you unscrew the zirc fitting after you're done, you'll see grease come out under pressure. There's no way that grease is getting into the splines within days of greasing, and you're noticing an immediate improvement. It's not lubrication that's helping, it's air pressure masking the problem. And if you pump enough grease in there, it'll be hydraulic pressure and lots of it. If you live around me, I'll be happy to drop your driveshaft, lube it properly, and show you what it looks like inside. And I'd love to get under and take a look after a hard stop, to see what exactly is moving when you let off the brakes.
scottm
New member
I'm familiar with that incident, Toyota got involved, it went well, but I wouldn't expect them to get involved again. Special circumstances. It's best if we all just learn from it and don't repeat it. I'm wondering if Toyota realizes all this driveshaft lubricating is headed down that same road? If a customer cracks a case after getting their driveshaft lubed for the fifth time at a dealership, will the dealer or customer realize what's happened? Probably not, but I'm waiting for it.
over 100k views on this thread alone. how many other sites have this thread? a bunch. im amazed at how my 2 year old 4 runner with 20k miles has this issue. makes the car feel old. if the GX has a fix, why wont Toyota fix the 4runner? even more amazing is that a whole new gen has been released with still no fix for this issue.
