ECU "learning": fact, fiction or just fuggetaboudit?

[crankycodger]

Go easy on me folks, this is my first thread here. And I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

Although I only have a whopping 700 miles on my new (and first) 4Runner, like many I'm struggling a bit with the well-known "lazy throttle syndrome". Unlike many, I recognize that it's more a perception than a reality but in fact sometimes perceptions become realities, don't they?

Let me clear up a couple of things right at the outset:

1. Yes, I test drove it. Drove two, in fact, each for 6-7 miles. That's about the limit of a car salesman's endurance, and there wasn't a hill within 150 miles of the dealership anyway. They drove great under those circumstances and to tell the truth if I'd have known then what I know now, I'd have bought it anyway. I love the vehicle that much. And being an old car guy I full well recognize that every vehicle is a compromise and in this case the outstanding far, far outweighs the marginal.

2. Yes, I've utilized the "search" function here at great length and have availed myself of many opinions on this topic. As you know, there's not always consensus.

3. Yes, I've looked into the Sprint Booster and it's not for me. Doesn't appear to do anything I can't already do with my right size 14.

So here's the meat of my question: does the ECU in fact really "learn" my driving habits and modify it's control parameters based on said habits? Well informed posters seem to disagree. The reason I ask is that the majority of my driving is around town and pretty sedate, but if the ECU is gonna read that as me being a wimp and further degrade shift points and throttle response then maybe I need to hammer this thing everywhere I go. My strong preference is to putt around in my normal fashion most of the time, but when I need or want extra grunt just slap the stick to the left to engage Sequential mode then hit the loud pedal hard. This approach makes perfect sense to me (and seems to work fine), but as stated I don't want to make things worse with the ECU mapping than they are. As well, I don't like to dog a vehicle when it isn't necessary.

What say the pundits?

P.S. Why doesn't a reputable aftermarket company offer a chip for this vehicle? They seem to be available for virtually everything else out there.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

The ECU doesn't learn your driving habits. It learns parameters from all the sensors (MAP/Altitude/Etc...).

Also, the motor is brand new. Give it a chance to break in and it will loosen up and have more power.

 

[WhiteRice]

Being new to my '16 TE, being a car enthusiast myself and coming from a long line of sports cars prior to my T4R; I will chime in with what I know:

I know that most newer (2003+) have MAF learning, A/F learning and A/T learning but I have not read much in the realm of 5th Gen T4Rs. I CAN tell you that with my previous experience with Uprev / Osiris on my Nissan and Infiniti products was probably the best $500-$600 ever invested into car modifications.

Doing some further searching has only yielded one company that appears to confidently have late model Toyota ECU mapping and that is Dynotronics. They have some good reviews on 4.0 Toyota engines but not much specific to the T4R. I am researching this as well and I fully understand what I was getting into when I bought this rig. I have wanted a T4R for as long as I can remember and the 2014+ has the most appealing body style that I can recall hence why I pulled the trigger. This is not a VQ35 or VQ37 and it is not tuned to be a "Go Fast Mobile", but I do agree that I would like the throttle to be a little more responsive. I would like to hear about anyone's experience with this as well.

 

[WhiskeyMikeTango]

Can't be certain about the 4Runner computers but almost all new vehicles have adaptive learning computers. Primarily ECM and TCM. These systems are great but can cause issues as values can become "frozen" and cause abnormal NVH (noise vibration harshness)

 

[1engineer]

Go easy on me folks, this is my first thread here. And I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

Although I only have a whopping 700 miles on my new (and first) 4Runner, like many I'm struggling a bit with the well-known "lazy throttle syndrome". Unlike many, I recognize that it's more a perception than a reality but in fact sometimes perceptions become realities, don't they?

Let me clear up a couple of things right at the outset:

1. Yes, I test drove it. Drove two, in fact, each for 6-7 miles. That's about the limit of a car salesman's endurance, and there wasn't a hill within 150 miles of the dealership anyway. They drove great under those circumstances and to tell the truth if I'd have known then what I know now, I'd have bought it anyway. I love the vehicle that much. And being an old car guy I full well recognize that every vehicle is a compromise and in this case the outstanding far, far outweighs the marginal.

2. Yes, I've utilized the "search" function here at great length and have availed myself of many opinions on this topic. As you know, there's not always consensus.

3. Yes, I've looked into the Sprint Booster and it's not for me. Doesn't appear to do anything I can't already do with my right size 14.

So here's the meat of my question: does the ECU in fact really "learn" my driving habits and modify it's control parameters based on said habits? Well informed posters seem to disagree. The reason I ask is that the majority of my driving is around town and pretty sedate, but if the ECU is gonna read that as me being a wimp and further degrade shift points and throttle response then maybe I need to hammer this thing everywhere I go. My strong preference is to putt around in my normal fashion most of the time, but when I need or want extra grunt just slap the stick to the left to engage Sequential mode then hit the loud pedal hard. This approach makes perfect sense to me (and seems to work fine), but as stated I don't want to make things worse with the ECU mapping than they are. As well, I don't like to dog a vehicle when it isn't necessary.

What say the pundits?

P.S. Why doesn't a reputable aftermarket company offer a chip for this vehicle? They seem to be available for virtually everything else out there.

If you searched and found it necessary to make a new thread, what makes you think that you will get any answers that will be different? Posters are going to disagree in this thread just like in the past threads and there will be no consensus. Do what others do: Read a buttload of posts. It doesn't take long before you can figure out who's blowing smoke and who actually knows what they are talking about. When you read enough, you will even be able to figure out what area of expertise some posters have. For example, [MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION] knows the electronics and has most of the documentation. I won't touch an electrical thread because that is not my knowledge base. [MENTION=65614]Antman[/MENTION] has torn his 4Runner apart many times and is an expert in taking things like dashes apart and putting them back together. Other guys are very knowledgeable about lifts, tires, etc. Just read and you will see.

Hopefully you found this thread http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...set-throttle-response-pedal-position-etc.html and learned that the ECU is constantly "learning" such things as idle times, temperature, etc and adjusting the correct parameters like air and fuel accordingly. Over time, if you decided to run 93 octane for example, it would "learn" that based on detonation and change the timing accordingly. We are talking several hundred miles and several tankfuls of 93 though.

If you are wanting to know if it will automatically change the shift mapping to give you more acceleration then no, it will not. Push the gas. The harder and further you push it the faster it will go. Simple and that parameter will not change.

You won't find a Toyota of any model chip out there. If you do then steer clear because Toyota's code is locked and any offering to improve cannot be done.

 

[03_4x4Runner]

It will get a little better but not much. It will never put a smile on your face and make you say this is really fun to drive. It is worse in hot weather witch is bad for me because it is always hot in the desert. I will say that because of this my 2014 4runner may not be around as long as my 4th gen V8 was (11 years). I just need a little more pep even though I am an old man. The fun factor is just not there.

 

[crankycodger]

If you searched and found it necessary to make a new thread, what makes you think that you will get any answers that will be different? Posters are going to disagree in this thread just like in the past threads and there will be no consensus. Do what others do: Read a buttload of posts. It doesn't take long before you can figure out who's blowing smoke and who actually knows what they are talking about. When you read enough, you will even be able to figure out what area of expertise some posters have. For example, [MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION] knows the electronics and has most of the documentation. I won't touch an electrical thread because that is not my knowledge base. [MENTION=65614]Antman[/MENTION] has torn his 4Runner apart many times and is an expert in taking things like dashes apart and putting them back together. Other guys are very knowledgeable about lifts, tires, etc. Just read and you will see.

Hopefully you found this thread http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...set-throttle-response-pedal-position-etc.html and learned that the ECU is constantly "learning" such things as idle times, temperature, etc and adjusting the correct parameters like air and fuel accordingly. Over time, if you decided to run 93 octane for example, it would "learn" that based on detonation and change the timing accordingly. We are talking several hundred miles and several tankfuls of 93 though.

If you are wanting to know if it will automatically change the shift mapping to give you more acceleration then no, it will not. Push the gas. The harder and further you push it the faster it will go. Simple and that parameter will not change.

You won't find a Toyota of any model chip out there. If you do then steer clear because Toyota's code is locked and any offering to improve cannot be done.

Would this eventual timing change due to running 93 octane be significantly seat-of-the -pants noticeable?

 

[LawnDart]

Would this eventual timing change due to running 93 octane be significantly seat-of-the -pants noticeable?

You're going to hear a LOT of anecdotal information and opinions about this, but the reality is no, it will not be noticeable.

I personally tried it, and couldn't feel a thing. I know on my friend's jeep when he tows his XV2 trailer he runs 93 Octane and his jeep runs better under heavy load, but that's a jeep and not comparable.

Frankly Toyota spec'd the engine to run a certain way, and the Toyota's have a very specific operating band that the engine, engine subsystems, etc all work to maintain.

 

[1engineer]

Would this eventual timing change due to running 93 octane be significantly seat-of-the -pants noticeable?

No. Pretty much anything short of the mythical supercharger or turbo will not be noticeable. Exhaust, CAI, etc are just spending money. The only way, currently to make your 4Runner faster is to shed both sprung and unsprung weight and smaller tires and nobody wants to do that. Physics. Lose about 600 lbs by getting rid of the seats, carpet, headliner and plastic, put on some Ray's Wheels and some 235 tires and you will have a much quicker 4Runner. Other than that? Nope.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

The fun factor is just not there.

If your definition of "fun factor" is acceleration, then perhaps you should buy a sports car and recognize a V6 SUV is probably not the right tool for the job?

 

[e60ral]

I don't understand to the claim in the other thread that adjustments from a different octane would happen after a few hundred miles, wouldn't the ecu would respond almost immediately to different detonation?

 

[jtc44]

My strong preference is to putt around in my normal fashion most of the time, but when I need or want extra grunt just slap the stick to the left to engage Sequential mode then hit the loud pedal hard.

I've found that this method works the best for me. In fact, I nearly always drive in Sequential Mode, unless I'm feeling lazy with a cup of coffee in the morning. This is the first automatic transmission vehicle I've owned, so it feels natural. I know many would disagree, but I think there's plenty of pep in these engines with a quick bump or two in "S" mode even at half "loud pedal."

 

[adaml]

It seems like a lot of people use "S" mode as though it was some sort of weird proxy for a manual transmission. It's not though. When you drive in "S", whatever gear is being shown is not necessarily the gear that the car is in. It's just the highest possible gear it can go to. You should really only bother with S if you're going uphill and need more torque (limit the transmission to 4th or 3rd or whatever gear) or you're going downhill and want to use more engine braking. If you're driving around town in S and actually shifting up/down, I'd bet almost anything all you're doing is getting worse mileage because you're not going to be as good at knowing shift points as the ECU is.

 

[jtc44]

It will never put a smile on your face and make you say this is really fun to drive. It is worse in hot weather witch is bad for me because it is always hot in the desert. I will say that because of this my 2014 4runner may not be around as long as my 4th gen V8 was (11 years). I just need a little more pep even though I am an old man. The fun factor is just not there.

If you definition of "fun factor" is acceleration, then perhaps you should buy a sports car and recognize a V6 SUV is probably not the right tool for the job?

What puts a smile on my face is when I'm loaded with a family of 4, dog, bikes, camping supplies, etc, etc AND it still feels well mannered on OR off road. That's my fun factor. :thumb3:

 

[nb rob]

fun factor for me is going up an unimaginably steep trail full of moguls and enjoying the torque.

Less fast and furious, more 4lo.

 

[wfo9]

A few comments.
1. Your Toyota ECU is 100% encrypted and locked. No way you will ever be able to modify it. You can give Toyota a big fat kiss on the face for that little gem of a feature. They basically own the performance of your truck forever unless you go with some piggyback system that tricks it. There is some hope that they gave the keys to the castle to Magnuson when TRD sold off the supercharged program to them, but only time will tell what will happen there.

2. Yes, the ECU/TCM is a learning system. but it has very little to do with your driving style. It is sensor based. There are fuel, timing, and shift pressure trims, based on short and long term feedback. Things like the octane of your fuel and the density of the air will all have impact, but your driving style has very little impact.

3. One of the things you seek is the sprint booster. Yes, it is a stupid device that simply changes perception, but like you said. Perception is reality to you. Toyota programmed the throttle mapping from the gas pedal (basically a potentiometer) to demanded throttle to the ECU to not be linear. This results in a pretty shitty driving experience even on a stock vehicle. The motor does have some guts, just takes work to get it to do what you want. It should not be that way and was a mistake Toyota made. But people still buy them and seem quite happy, so I doubt they will ever do anything about it on this model.

 

[LawnDart]

A few comments.
1. Your Toyota ECU is 100% encrypted and locked. No way you will ever be able to modify it. You can give Toyota a big fat kiss on the face for that little gem of a feature. They basically own the performance of your truck forever unless you go with some piggyback system that tricks it. There is some hope that they gave the keys to the castle to Magnuson when TRD sold off the supercharged program to them, but only time will tell what will happen there.

2. Yes, the ECU/TCM is a learning system. but it has very little to do with your driving style. It is sensor based. There are fuel, timing, and shift pressure trims, based on short and long term feedback. Things like the octane of your fuel and the density of the air will all have impact, but your driving style has very little impact.

3. One of the things you seek is the sprint booster. Yes, it is a stupid device that simply changes perception, but like you said. Perception is reality to you. Toyota programmed the throttle mapping from the gas pedal (basically a potentiometer) to demanded throttle to the ECU to not be linear. This results in a pretty shitty driving experience even on a stock vehicle. The motor does have some guts, just takes work to get it to do what you want. It should not be that way and was a mistake Toyota made. But people still buy them and seem quite happy, so I doubt they will ever do anything about it on this model.

One clarification. Toyota didn't give Magnuson the code. We were at FJ Summit and some of the Magnuson guys were there, and clearly stated they had a supercharger built, prepped, and ready to go, and Toyota was basically just not giving them the code to talk to the engine/computer.

Toyota's ECU code is so absolutely protected and private it's unbelievable, and more power to them, it's their proprietary software.

 

[wfo9]

I don't understand to the claim in the other thread that adjustments from a different octane would happen after a few hundred miles, wouldn't the ecu would respond almost immediately to different detonation?

Not usually. The ECU has no way of directly knowing the octane of the fuel. What it does (and I'm going off my knowledge of other ECUs). Is learn timing retard based on passed knock events from the knock sensors. It will slowly decay the learned timing retard if no new events are detected. These are usually in a table of load cells... But the decay only happens when you get into the cells. This is why it can take a very long time to get back to full timing and power.

There is not going to be a Seat of the pants difference in power for high octane fuel. But there "should" be better overall power available. We are talking a few HP... nothing crazy... knowing Toyota's conservative asses..

 

[wfo9]

Toyota's ECU code is so absolutely protected and private it's unbelievable, and more power to them, it's their proprietary software.

Well, not everyone sees it that way. When I buy something I want to be able to do with it what I please. They own your truck still really. Which really sucks on many levels. There are many things I like about Toyota, but this is not one of them.

Their ECUs are very behind the times compared to other mfgs.. so they are not gaining any competitive advantage by keeping it locked up.... but I do know why they do it and others may follow sooon. There are ways (although very expensive) around it... so not that big of a deal. Just sucks that they can't be like everyone else and allow some support for the enthusiast market.

 

[1engineer]

Not usually. The ECU has no way of directly knowing the octane of the fuel. What it does (and I'm going off my knowledge of other ECUs). Is learn timing retard based on passed knock events from the knock sensors. It will slowly decay the learned timing retard if no new events are detected. These are usually in a table of load cells... But the decay only happens when you get into the cells. This is why it can take a very long time to get back to full timing and power.

There is not going to be a Seat of the pants difference in power for high octane fuel. But there "should" be better overall power available. We are talking a few HP... nothing crazy... knowing Toyota's conservative asses..

Yes it goes off of long term averages. It takes awhile for the new numbers in the table to eventually change the long term average.