Final fix for intermittent no-crank on the 22re.

[KidVermicious]

Your '89 already has a factory relay, yes. Your best bet is probably to check the link to Rad4Runner's rewire in post 5.

If you wanted to add a relay the way I did, you could use one like the one you pictured. Post 86 would be the signal from the factory relay (or the ignition switch, if you don't have or eliminate the factory relay), 30 would be the battery, and 87 would go to the starter.

 

[RAD4Runner]

Rebumping...
A little confused

Your '89 already has a factory relay, yes. Your best bet is probably to check the link to Rad4Runner's rewire in post 5.

KidV is correct. You already have a factory starter relay. Just rewire according to this:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/class...rad4runners-mods-restoration.html#post1284393

 

[RAD4Runner]

If wiring had been butchered (Damned P.O.'s!), a 30-amp relay is a proper replacement. Starter solenoid draws around 12-amps when energized.

To properly re-wire, need to find the wire that connects to ST1 contact of ignition switch. Also need to find the thin black wire with red stripe that takes ground via the clutch safety switch, or via the clutch safety cancel circuit.

Wire as follows:

 

[zooroadbaja]

I can't find the factory relay and I have no idea what wire is what. At this point I'm ready to run a momentary switch that goes to the starter? Is there anything wrong with doing this?

I was going to run a wire from the blue sea to the momentary switch then to a 30amp relay. Would I need to pigtail off of the crank wire going to the starter?

I'll post pictures in a little of what I'm dealing with.

Also the truck is more of a trailer queen and rarely sees the street. If I could figure out how to bypass the key all in general that would be key haha.

 

[KidVermicious]

The relay is on the passenger firewall, RAD posted a pic earlier in the thread. If you don't see it there, find the small wire on the starter and trace it back. It's certainly possible that a previous owner decided to delete it?

If all else fails you can certainly add a momentary switched ignition button, but that's really no different than adding/rewiring the relay - it's the same wires.

 

[JaredB3000]

Greetings all!

First, let me mention that I've now looked over just about every thread from every forum on this topic. If the new ignition switch and cylinder replacement don't cure what ails me (which I'm pretty damn certain it will) I'll bore the reader with an A-Z timeline of vehicle behavior and my attempts to repair.

As these parts don't arrive for a few more days, I have a couple of questions for yall. Disclosure: electrical systems confuse me often (I understand constituent elements of circuitry just fine, but for some reason the meta concepts just don't stay in my brain for very long...)

My ride being an 85, there is no visible relay and I don't believe there to be one anywhere, though my intermittent issue has always involved a click. It is always a single click when the problem arises; not several, not 2, just a lone click. That said, and while I certainly plan on adding the hotshot relay in the nearest of futures per my reading up on this biz, my first question is-

1) would I be hearing a click at all without a relay? If no, then surely someone added one. This 4runner has a history as a 1 owner/only serviced by master techs vehicle, so perhaps someone back when was privy to the relay issue and added one? I ask because of the clicking noise, as to the best of my ability to search for one, there is not a relay.

2) when I get the parts and go to replace the ignition cylinder/switch, beside the obvious need to pay attention to the way it was wired in once I crack into the steering column, would the alarm system in place pose any issues not generally discussed in this topic that I need to be aware of? (Though its an older alarm system, it works well and sure seems to have been installed by pros.). I ask because it sure would suck to find there's a different cylinder type required for 4runners with alarms...

3) i need to get to work still, and though the idea of walking to a bus stop sounds great, until a permanent solution is had would simply running a wire from + terminal to starter be OK, if only for a week or so? This is why I'm responding to this particular post. Otherwise, is there a temporary hotwire solution that would not pose any threats to anything in the vehicle, mechanical or electrical?

A couple more bits of info for those of you who have read this far- the problem used to be once every 6 months for the 3 years ive owned it, then once weekly about a month ago, now the last event fortunately occurred at home and it wont start yet behaves exactly the same as when it would eventually start. Though in ACC and when trying to start it still has good power as always, when turning the key to start I now just get the lone click. Jumps don't assist the problem. When it does miraculously come out of the coma the first start lately has consistently been a bit sluggish (leading me to believe its got extra fuel to deal with like the way a carbureated system would react, of which this is EFI), thereafter it will start 20 times as good as new. I did noticed a manufacturer rebuild sticker on the densco starter, and tapping it does not seem to assist.

Behavior in the ignition cylinder I don't have the time to bore you with at present, though I'll elaborate soon.

This topic is a lively dead-horse I know, thanks much for any info!

 

[KidVermicious]

No worries bumping the thread, this is a common problem and it's much better to have this thread repeatedly bumped and lots of good data in one place than have 70,000 other threads on the topic.

You do not have a starter relay in your 1985. The single click you're hearing from the passenger kick panel is the Circuit Open Relay, that energizes the fuel pump. The jumper wire from battery to starter is a safe temp fix, I did it for several months. Best to get a spade connector and fix it to the starter solenoid, then leave the other end hanging loose near the battery so you don't have to reach into the fender to start your truck.

$5 says your new ignition cylinder fixes the problem temporarily, but it'll be back. Put a relay in.

 

[RAD4Runner]

My ride being an 85

I hate you already! - LOL!

there is no visible relay and I don't believe there to be one

Correct like KidV says.

1) would I be hearing a click at all without a relay?

Like KidV says, yes the C.O.R..
The starter solenoid may also "thunk". However, it would be hard for you to hear/feel from driver seat, and even if it does, either:
1) Power to energize it may not be enough (because of power loses on the poorly designed starting system wiring) to overcome the return spring force, so it may not completely actuate to close contacts, OR
2) It may completely actuate but you may have worn contacts so they may not always close. (search "replacing solenoid contacts")

2) when I get the parts and go to replace the ignition cylinder/switch, beside the obvious need to pay attention to the way it was wired...

Not much to it, except inspect wiring for wear, corrosion, shorts, opens.

Jumps don't assist the problem...

Understandable, because this is not a battery charge issue.

... and tapping it does not seem to assist.

Tapping may help IF solenoid plunger moves somehow but barely closes the solenoid contacts. Tapping it gives it a nudge to finally close contacts.

...The jumper wire from battery to starter is a safe temp fix, I did it for several months. Best to get a spade connector and fix it to the starter solenoid, then leave the other end hanging loose near the battery so you don't have to reach into the fender to start your truck.

Exactly. I describe the setup here.
1) IF this consistently makes starter solenoid thunk, and crank the starter, then you know problem is upsteam- most likely fixable by adding the relay.
2) IF it makes the solenoid thunk but does not consistently crank, it's probably your solenoid contacts. Easy to inspect/replace. 4Crawler has write-up on this on his site.

KidV says, $5 says your new ignition cylinder fixes the problem temporarily, but it'll be back. Put a relay in.

Absolutely. Stock ignition switch may have pitted contacts from the poor design that had subjected it to 12 amps each time it started for the past 29 years. That's just one of the straws that broke the camel's back.

There are other straws- the heaviest of which is the absence of properly-wired starter relay. After you replace the ignition switch, you'll still have a poorly-wired cranking system that still subjects ignition switch ST1 contacts to 12-amps. Choices:
1) Add a relay like KidV did,
2) Buy a hotshot kit
3) Buy 40-amp general purpose automotive relay and wire it in...

Either way the retrofit is simply wired this way:

Best of luck.

 

[JaredB3000]

Thanks much to you both!

Rad4- after looking over your divide and conquer post that is super helpful for my immediate needs. Not that I don't mind having an excuse to drive around my work-in-progress 4wd 22re coachman 1 ton conversion, but for all its zombie apocalypse capabilities it does not play so nice in commuter traffic (more on this some other time to be discussed over at yotatech, but since I mentioned it, see photo below). Nor is it insured, but I digress.

Anyhow- I'm thinking that since I'm only needing to circumvent the ignition switch for a couple days, wouldn't a household interrupter work OK in place of a push button starter? Perhaps a bit more of a hassle and wear on the starter as I switch from on to off, but that should work, right?

Also, just to be 110%- the 4crawler write-up mentions reconnecting the female spade connector after successfully jumping the starter... I'm thinking he mentions this only in the example of doing a single jump, but it leads me to wonder a couple more thangs-

With my temporary wired-in push button starter (or in my case, on-off switch, unless someone tells me this is a bad idea...) the disconnected female spade remains disconnected until I rig up my permanent fix, right? (my permanent fix is slated to include one of the 3 relay additions for sure)

Key needs to be in the On position when using push-button start, and when going to kill the motor, turning the key off will still do its thing, yeah?

And lastly, because all electrical signals between ignition switch and starter will be disconnected, the motor will always turn over when starter is triggered with or without the clutch engaged, right?

A bit over kill on the questions I know, but hopefully this might save someone working solo a concussion and damaged ride...

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[KidVermicious]

With my temporary wired-in push button starter (or in my case, on-off switch, unless someone tells me this is a bad idea...) the disconnected female spade remains disconnected until I rig up my permanent fix, right? (my permanent fix is slated to include one of the 3 relay additions for sure)

Key needs to be in the On position when using push-button start, and when going to kill the motor, turning the key off will still do its thing, yeah?

And lastly, because all electrical signals between ignition switch and starter will be disconnected, the motor will always turn over when starter is triggered with or without the clutch engaged, right?

Are you talking about wiring in a basic household light switch? I wouldn't do that. If you're going to wire something in, make it a momentary switch. Five bucks or so at a parts store.

But you're making this too hard on yourself. What I did was grab a chunk of speaker wire, stripped back the insulation on the crank wire to the starter, and wrapped one end of the speaker wire around the crank wire and secured it with a grip of electrical tape. The other end came up the inside of the fender and I tied it around something and secured the end with a wire nut. I drove around like that for months, and any time the truck decided not to start I'd leave the key On then pop the hood and walk around and touch the top end of the speaker wire to the positive battery post. That cranks the truck, and with the key On the truck will start. Resecure the wire and drive away. Truck turns off like normal.

That's one of the things that got me married to my wife - I had to do that during a date, and she thought it was so rad that I was able to McGyver my truck. I didn't tell her I stole the trick from the interwebs.

 

[JaredB3000]

Are you talking about wiring in a basic household light switch? I wouldn't do that. If you're going to wire something in, make it a momentary switch. Five bucks or so at a parts store.

But you're making this too hard on yourself. What I did was grab a chunk of speaker wire, stripped back the insulation on the crank wire to the starter, and wrapped one end of the speaker wire around the crank wire and secured it with a grip of electrical tape. The other end came up the inside of the fender and I tied it around something and secured the end with a wire nut. I drove around like that for months, and any time the truck decided not to start I'd leave the key On then pop the hood and walk around and touch the top end of the speaker wire to the positive battery post. That cranks the truck, and with the key On the truck will start. Resecure the wire and drive away. Truck turns off like normal.

That's one of the things that got me married to my wife - I had to do that during a date, and she thought it was so rad that I was able to McGyver my truck. I didn't tell her I stole the trick from the interwebs.

So last night after a bit more fishing around I decided the household switch was a bad idea, the whole AC/DC factor, and was able to borrow a buddy's car to pick up a 12v push button, and with enough wire kicking around got everything set up to have a temporary starter button in the cab. Low and behold- solid power to the starter, still no motor turning over.

I decided to give another go at trying to start while tapping the starter, and sho'nuff solenoid contacts are the culprit. As I was working alone and determined to get to the bottom of the issue- from outside the vehicle I was able to crank starter with the push button in my left hand, and hammer in right- ghetto as hell but it works until I can refurbish the starter this weekend! And it can't be reiterated enough- for anyone reading this with similar issues, don't give yourself a darwin award or trip to the hospital! Do not do attempt this with the vehicle in gear!

"That's one of the things that got me married to my wife - I had to do that during a date, and she thought it was so rad that I was able to McGyver my truck. I didn't tell her I stole the trick from the interwebs."

Nice! Thats one helluva story for the grand kids!

 

[RAD4Runner]

LOL!

... solid power to the starter, still no motor turning over.

You mean by solid power to the starter solenoid so it clicked?
But no crank of course, because contacts did not close completely?

I decided to give another go at trying to start while tapping the starter, and sho'nuff solenoid contacts are the culprit.

You're almost there.

 

[JaredB3000]

LOL!


You mean by solid power to the starter solenoid so it clicked?
But no crank of course, because contacts did not close completely?

Yep- same single click just as if it was connected to the spade wire I had disconnected; nada on the crank.

My thinking that I had isolated the issue as the ignition switch was because most times the click/no-crank happened, sometimes the amount of pressure applied to the key would seem to be related to the motor magically turning over. I also recently noticed the key would stay in the start position for longer than it should have, though only for a second or so, which I would guess has helped wear out the contacts much quicker (and why I ordered a switch last week instead of doing what I should have done first, as suggested, which is to start at the solenoid...).


The formula to my specific problems, methinks:

no relay = tired ignition switch = ignition switch overworking the solenoid

And the answer, of course, having culled it from this forum:

new ign. switch + relay modification + solenoid rebuild...

Reckon I might even try the copper pipe contact fabrication suggested in the 4crawler writeup... If I do I'll let ya's all know how it goes!

 

[RAD4Runner]

The formula to my specific problems, methinks:
no relay = tired ignition switch = ignition switch overworking the solenoid
And the answer, of course, having culled it from this forum:
new ign. switch + relay modification + solenoid rebuild...

Really... "12-Amp solenoid current overworking the ignition switch", but yes, that approach will restore and make your system better than stock. that is the clean and robust solution; No short-cuts.

 

[protomind]

Call me crazy or inept but where is the ignition wire?

 

[RAD4Runner]

???

Call me crazy or inept but where is the ignition wire?

???????

 

[KidVermicious]

Call me crazy or inept but where is the ignition wire?

Ok, you're crazy or inept. Which wire are you looking for, now?

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

I assume he's looking for the IGN wire to connect to terminal 86 on the relay.

Depends where you're putting the relay, actually.

You could mount the relay near the battery, and pull the connector (12AWG wire) off the starter's solenoid, tap to that for #86.

Or, you could stuff this under the dash and use heavier wire to go to the starter from there (like 8AWG, like you'd use for a stereo amp), then find the IGN wire from the steering column.

Either way would work, you could even bring that wire from the steering column to near the battery and run the relay there.

 

[KidVermicious]

That's the wire in pic #3 of the OP, then. It's a black wire, under the intake plenum, it's the smaller of the two wires terminating on the starter.

 

[protomind]

I want to put it on the wheel well inside the engine compartment like kid v did. Do I simply run a wire from the relay and splice it into the ignition wire close to the starter or do I run the ignition wire to the relay and run it from the relay to the starter?

I'm terrible with electrical systems but can figure stuff out if I know where to look.

Thanks guys