fluid flushes necessary?

Will_4R

Member
The owners manual doesn't specify ANY fluid flushes as part of the regular maintenance, but the dealer recomends flushing the following at regular intervals:

colling system
transmission
power steering
brakes

The manual recomends a simple drain and fill of the coolant and transmission, but nothing more, and doesn't mention anything about the steering or brake fluid.

Is there any reason other than suspected contamination to bother with flushes?
 
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Not really. In fact, most flush machines run a higher pressure than the trans has driving. This can actually hurt the trans clutches and solenoids. My recommendation would be to drain and refill the trans every 30k, d&r the coolant every 60k, flush the brake fluid when you do the brakes, power steering when it starts to darken before it gets black. The fluids don't degrade enough to really worry about doing full flushes unless there is an obvious contamination.
 
Not really. In fact, most flush machines run a higher pressure than the trans has driving. This can actually hurt the trans clutches and solenoids. My recommendation would be to drain and refill the trans every 30k, d&r the coolant every 60k, flush the brake fluid when you do the brakes. The fluids don't degrade enough to really worry about doing full flushes unless there is an obvious contamination.

Ya, I have heard the same about transmission flushes - avoid them if possible. Toyota recomond a drain and fill of the transmission every 60,000 miles, and a drain and fill of the coolant every 20,000 miles.
 
It's always a good idea to do preventative maintenance which is where flushes coming in. I can see justifying tranny, coolant and brakes fluid flushes but I've never heard of power steering flushes, I don't even know how you'd go about doing that, using a turkey baster maybe?? j/k lol Maybe someone else can chime in.

EDIT: guess i was too slow lol
 
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Fluid Flushes

Dealers recommend earlier and additional flushes for one basic reason: "Profit".

As long as you are driving your vehicle under the severe schedule which is listed in the manual, do what the manufacturer recommends. Maybe do a little earlier if you plan to keep the vehicle forever. I have gone through many vehicles and I only do the recommended service and have never had a problem. When you are using top of the line fluids and synthetics, they do not need the extra treatments. A lot of people think they do because they are relying on the past when lower grade products where used. Like some people use synthetic oil, like the 2011 comes with, and they still think it should be changed between 3,000 and 5,000 miles. That is just wasting money. Just be sure when you do change the fluids you use the proper grade product.
 
Fluid flushes

The above should read " as long as you are not driving under the severe conditions listed in the manual".
 
It's always a good idea to do preventative maintenance which is where flushes coming in. I can see justifying tranny, coolant and brakes fluid flushes but I've never heard of power steering flushes, I don't even know how you'd go about doing that, using a turkey baster maybe?? j/k lol Maybe someone else can chime in.

EDIT: guess i was too slow lol

For the power steering, I disconnected one of the hoses that connect into the rack. Fluid drained pretty quickly including the fluid in the resevoir. No need for turkey baster.
 
Regarding the PS & Brakes, I personally never change them. AT fluid and filter, I do have changed now and again & professionally flushed (trusted local shop, not stealership), as a matter of fact.

But regarding Cooling system, IMHO, it depends on where you live, and I see that like myself, you live in Southern AZ. I never used to have my cooling systems flushed until years ago I had a vehicle I bought new, and it overheated on a trip at the two years old mark and had to be towed. Ever since, I have the cooling systems on my vehicles flushed (again, not at the stealership but at my trusted local shop), new coolant installed, and the hoses and belts inspected. Now many years later, and I have never had a cooling system failure again in the hot Arizona summers, which is just how I like it.

I recommend a complete preventative cooling system flush every other Spring.
 
I'm a little surprised to hear people actually opine that you don't need to change fluids on a periodic basis. I'll be the first to tell you that stealerships try to push these things unnecessarily to make profit off unsuspecting customers, so I wouldn't trust anything they say, but it's a good idea to get the facts and science behind your automotive fluids straight. I also think it's incredibly misleading that car manufacturer are starting to label their fluids "lifetime fluids", since no fluids are actually "lifetime." Fluids break down over time and are less effective at lubricating when dirty. Whether it's from dirt and debris that will accumulate (no matter if the system is sealed), or cycles of heat and pressure, your fluids work hard to do their jobs and over time will be less effective at those jobs.

Coolant -- your coolant will not only trap debris, but is also anti-corrosive. I know Toyota says it has "long-life coolant", but it couldn't hurt to do a drain/refill on the coolant, just to get any debris that is in there out, as well as refresh with new chemicals. I think the manufacturer recommendation is something like 100k, but I'd err closer to the side of the traditional 2 yrs/24k mi recommendation.

Transmission -- I drained the tranny fluid this weekend at 67k miles, and it was BLACK. Although it didn't smell burnt yet, I was happy to have it out of there and replaced with new stuff. Transmissions fail when they overheat. When your transmission fluid gets hot, it begins to break down, and you're putting more heat on the transmission, not to mention it begins to be less effective at lubricating the moving parts, plus there could be dirt or metal shavings in there. Good idea to change it, or at least do the old 3-qt drain/fill periodically. As for the comment to avoid transmission flushes, it's a good idea to avoid them if you've gone 200,000 miles and never changed the fluid. That's because all the debris and gunk is caked on to the seals and moving parts and holding them together. If you change it then, you'll "clean" them which can break the debris loose and cause your seals to fail or lodge the debris in the moving parts of your tranny, but really, by that point, it's on its last legs anyway. Best thing is to do the tranny fluid every 50k-60k, depending on driving habits. Note that I've heard Toyota recently changed their tranny recommendations down from 100k to 60k -- if true, what does that tell you about what they're finding with their WS tranny fluid?

PS Fluid -- same idea. You're lubricating your power steering system and all the seals and moving parts that go along with it. Dirty fluid will not lubricate as well. This is an easy procedure to do and does not take a lot of fluid, so good idea to do it. FWIW, I waited 100k miles to do it on my other car and haven't done it on the 4Runner yet, but it'll be in the cards sometime in the 80k mi range. I like the turkey baster method. You don't get all the old fluid out, but it's easy and pretty effective. Plus, I'm always nervous about running ANY fluid pump dry, so I'm not big on the drain method.

Brake fluid -- this one is important. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the air. This is why you have to throw away a brake fluid container after it's been opened (if you use it within the first month or so after you open the container, it's okay). Even though the brake system is sealed, it's a fact of life that some air (water) will get in there. Water will cause rust and corrosion in your brake system. Notably, brake fluid will absorb water regardless of whether it's used, thus it's important to bleed your brakes on a time schedule rather than a mileage schedule. I've heard 2-3 years is good, you could get 4 years, but I wouldn't go much longer than that. At the very least plan to bleed it every time you do your brakes. Additionally, hot brake fluid can begin to form air bubbles. I know that some people who do auto-cross with their cars will get one day out of brake fluid (or will even have to change their fluid several times during a day of autocross) because they end up boiling the fluid during intensive braking. This creates air in the lines and makes the pedal "squishy" since air compresses. Brake fluid is cheap and bleeding the system is really easy. Spend the 30 minutes every 3-4 years to bleed your brakes. (Also bear in mind that brake fluid will take the paint off your car so be CAREFUL with it.)

Also, I'd recommend changing differential fluid at some point before 100k miles. Re transfer case: I have RWD, so I cannot opine there.

The problem with frequent fluid changes is that you pay for them now but don't get the benefit of them for years. When your car is still going strong on its original transmission and other equipment at 250,000 is where you start to realize that changing things like the tranny, PS, and diff fluid every 50,000 mi was well worth it.
 
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I'm a little surprised to hear people actually opine that you don't need to change fluids on a periodic basis. I'll be the first to tell you that stealerships try to push these things unnecessarily to make profit off unsuspecting customers, so I wouldn't trust anything they say, but it's a good idea to get the facts and science behind your automotive fluids straight. I also think it's incredibly misleading that car manufacturer are starting to label their fluids "lifetime fluids", since no fluids are actually "lifetime." Fluids break down over time and are less effective at lubricating when dirty. Whether it's from dirt and debris that will accumulate (no matter if the system is sealed), or cycles of heat and pressure, your fluids work hard to do their jobs and over time will be less effective at those jobs.

Coolant -- your coolant will not only trap debris, but is also anti-corrosive. I know Toyota says it has "long-life coolant", but it couldn't hurt to do a drain/refill on the coolant, just to get any debris that is in there out, as well as refresh with new chemicals. I think the manufacturer recommendation is something like 100k, but I'd err closer to the side of the traditional 2 yrs/24k mi recommendation.

Transmission -- I drained the tranny fluid this weekend at 67k miles, and it was BLACK. Although it didn't smell burnt yet, I was happy to have it out of there and replaced with new stuff. Transmissions fail when they overheat. When your transmission fluid gets hot, it begins to break down, and you're putting more heat on the transmission, not to mention it begins to be less effective at lubricating the moving parts, plus there could be dirt or metal shavings in there. Good idea to change it, or at least do the old 3-qt drain/fill periodically. As for the comment to avoid transmission flushes, it's a good idea to avoid them if you've gone 200,000 miles and never changed the fluid. That's because all the debris and gunk is caked on to the seals and moving parts and holding them together. If you change it then, you'll "clean" them which can break the debris loose and cause your seals to fail or lodge the debris in the moving parts of your tranny, but really, by that point, it's on its last legs anyway. Best thing is to do the tranny fluid every 50k-60k, depending on driving habits. Note that I've heard Toyota recently changed their tranny recommendations down from 100k to 60k -- if true, what does that tell you about what they're finding with their WS tranny fluid?

PS Fluid -- same idea. You're lubricating your power steering system and all the seals and moving parts that go along with it. Dirty fluid will not lubricate as well. This is an easy procedure to do and does not take a lot of fluid, so good idea to do it. FWIW, I waited 100k miles to do it on my other car and haven't done it on the 4Runner yet, but it'll be in the cards sometime in the 80k mi range. I like the turkey baster method. You don't get all the old fluid out, but it's easy and pretty effective. Plus, I'm always nervous about running ANY fluid pump dry, so I'm not big on the drain method.

Brake fluid -- this one is important. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the air. This is why you have to throw away a brake fluid container after it's been opened (if you use it within the first month or so after you open the container, it's okay). Even though the brake system is sealed, it's a fact of life that some air (water) will get in there. Water will cause rust and corrosion in your brake system. Notably, brake fluid will absorb water regardless of whether it's used, thus it's important to bleed your brakes on a time schedule rather than a mileage schedule. I've heard 2-3 years is good, you could get 4 years, but I wouldn't go much longer than that. At the very least plan to bleed it every time you do your brakes. Additionally, hot brake fluid can begin to form air bubbles. I know that some people who do auto-cross with their cars will get one day out of brake fluid (or will even have to change their fluid several times during a day of autocross) because they end up boiling the fluid during intensive braking. This creates air in the lines and makes the pedal "squishy" since air compresses. Brake fluid is cheap and bleeding the system is really easy. Spend the 30 minutes every 3-4 years to bleed your brakes. (Also bear in mind that brake fluid will take the paint off your car so be CAREFUL with it.)

Also, I'd recommend changing differential fluid at some point before 100k miles. Re transfer case: I have RWD, so I cannot opine there.

The problem with frequent fluid changes is that you pay for them now but don't get the benefit of them for years. When your car is still going strong on its original transmission and other equipment at 250,000 is where you start to realize that changing things like the tranny, PS, and diff fluid every 50,000 mi was well worth it.

Good points, but I don't think anyone here is against fluid drain/refills. The question is whether a flush is necessary, or beneficial, on top of just the drain/refill. Also, is there any reason to go beyond what is recomended in the owners manual and factory service manual.
 
Brake fluid is, as mentioned before, hygroscopic. It absorbs moisture and will degrade over time with exposure, heat, and use. If I remember correctly, the SAE (not the dealer or manufacturer) reccomend 30k/6months on Brake Fluid.

Coolant is another important fluid to change, I also do not believe in this "lifetime coolant" that the manufactuer is trying to shove. Coolant degrades over time, it is designed to help prevent corrosion in your cooling system and with today's mix of materials in engines it can cause severe issues down the line. The coolant will eventually no longer be able to provide optimum anti-corrosive properties over time as the detergents and addatives in the fluid degrade. Follow what Toyota reccomends and you should be fine.

Transmission fluid is a tricky one, flushes are for the most part a crap shoot on higher mileage vehicles that have not had regular service. It should not be an issue with well maintained vehicles. Transmissions output a ton of debris in comparision to say your coolant or Engine Oil systems. Transmissions have clutch materials and minute traces of metallics that are constantly being shaved off and dumped into the fluid. The fluid doubles as a coolant, hydraulic fluid, and lubricant. Once again I would reccomend following Toyota's specs for changes depending on your usage. (I would not go past about 75k on TransFluid though, no matter what the book says)

Power Steering fluid, is a strange one IMO. My experience is that almost all our Toyotas do well on power steering fluid for the most part... But I have noticed that 4Runners, older Camrys, ect just trash the power steering fluid, it becomes blackened and looks more like 100k old engine oil than the ATF or P/S fluid that you put in there. I personally change my Power steering when it gets darker than engine oil, Transmission fluid is designed (so the ATF makers tell me...) to turn that brackish color when it is over heated/worn out. Does it need to be done every 20k or what ever they say? Not at all.. play that by ear.
 
Brake fluid is, as mentioned before, hygroscopic. It absorbs moisture and will degrade over time with exposure, heat, and use. If I remember correctly, the SAE (not the dealer or manufacturer) reccomend 30k/6months on Brake Fluid.

Coolant is another important fluid to change, I also do not believe in this "lifetime coolant" that the manufactuer is trying to shove. Coolant degrades over time, it is designed to help prevent corrosion in your cooling system and with today's mix of materials in engines it can cause severe issues down the line. The coolant will eventually no longer be able to provide optimum anti-corrosive properties over time as the detergents and addatives in the fluid degrade. Follow what Toyota reccomends and you should be fine.

They recomend a drain and fill (no flush) every 20k miles/ 2 yrs.

Transmission fluid is a tricky one, flushes are for the most part a crap shoot on higher mileage vehicles that have not had regular service. It should not be an issue with well maintained vehicles. Transmissions output a ton of debris in comparision to say your coolant or Engine Oil systems. Transmissions have clutch materials and minute traces of metallics that are constantly being shaved off and dumped into the fluid. The fluid doubles as a coolant, hydraulic fluid, and lubricant. Once again I would reccomend following Toyota's specs for changes depending on your usage. (I would not go past about 75k on TransFluid though, no matter what the book says)

They recomend draining and refilling the pan (again, no flush) every 60k miles or 5 yrs (for the 2003 V6).

Power Steering fluid, is a strange one IMO. My experience is that almost all our Toyotas do well on power steering fluid for the most part... But I have noticed that 4Runners, older Camrys, ect just trash the power steering fluid, it becomes blackened and looks more like 100k old engine oil than the ATF or P/S fluid that you put in there. I personally change my Power steering when it gets darker than engine oil, Transmission fluid is designed (so the ATF makers tell me...) to turn that brackish color when it is over heated/worn out. Does it need to be done every 20k or what ever they say? Not at all.. play that by ear.

I'll change the brake and PS fluid occasionally, and will stick with manufactures recomendation for tranny and coolant (I might do the full coolant flush now and then).
 
Most of you guys look like your driving stock 4 runners... keep in mind, speaking for everyone with runners that are lifted and running oversized tires, everything wears/tears gets old ALOT faster, not to mention the stress that is put upon stock components. Yeah you can get away not changing fluids with a stock car for long periods of time, because its designed to run stock on the road with light offroad use, however in my case I change all my fluids at least once to twice a year depending on my driving habits and how much i go offroading checking them regulary due to mud and debris/stress that comes even from daily driving with 33's-35's. Most the time, the transmission fluid is what goes first usually, where as tranny cooling is necesary or its gunna blow under the stress of 33's now 35's. Power steering fluid is next, as where I lubricate my steering everytime i get an oil change, Brakes get bled and new fluid once a year or so. Just my input on smart preventative/necesssary maintence :bigok:
 
Dealer wants $90 for a PS flush. Does that sound right? In the case of PS, is a simple drain and refill the same as a flush? I am at 110k so I figure as may as well get this done, since I don't think it has been done yet.
 
Dealer wants $90 for a PS flush. Does that sound right? In the case of PS, is a simple drain and refill the same as a flush? I am at 110k so I figure as may as well get this done, since I don't think it has been done yet.


My dealer charges $129 for a PS flush, so thats not bad. I checked a few independent shops and they were all about $90. If the dealer is charging that, see what an independent shop in your area charges. Just make sure they use ATF DEXRON II or III and not PS fluid.

As far as the flush, I am not sure if they just drain and refill, or actually flush the system.
 

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