Frame Rusted Through, Whats my Next Move...?

[pablopakman]

So here is the run down. I have a 2000 4runner with 210K miles on it and a 5spd manual transmission. The only upgrades have been a 99 suspension swap and an Eaton TruTrack LSD in the rear. I am the second owner and have owned it for the past 10 years and 100k miles. It has nothing wrong with it except now, the frame has rusted through in several spots (live in SE PA) and I spent some of my christmas vacation cutting out the rust and welding in steel inside the frame and more steel on the outside to get it to pass PA inspection (which it did) but overall the frame is pretty compromised.

As I see it, I have a few options:
1. Drive it as is and worry about it next December when i have to inspect it again,
2. Sell it now, and buy some other cheap car to daily drive instead of this (fully disclosing the rust issue of course)
3. Purchase a scrap frame for $500-$1000 and try my hand at a back yard frame swap (no lift, no garage, but i've done engine swaps and rebuilds without one before)
4. Pay local autobody shop about $3,800 to perform a frame replacement.

If I did the swap, i would probably want to throw in some other upgrades such as steel bumpers (front and back are also rusted), replace the clutch (its still original clutch at 210K), perform suspension lift 3" or less due to sagging rear and crappy shocks.

I know it does not make fiscal sense to put $4k into a truck that doesn't sell for that much, but i cannot find a replacement vehicle in that price range that is in as good of condition as my 4runner, aside from the frame.

Whats your opinion, what would you do?

 

[amalik]

Do *NOT* pay $4k for a new frame; you can probably get another 3rd gen at that price, and keep your motor/tranny around in case the 'new to you' 3rd gen has issues with either of those. I.e. keep your current truck for parts, minus the frame obviously.

[MENTION=10169]TheDurk[/MENTION] did a backyard frame swap due to the same issue. Check out his signature for a link.

If you get another frame that isn't as rusty through another 3rd gen, make sure you protect it this time with something like FluidFilm or POR-15, etc etc (You can find many PA and northeast owner threads on the 3rd gen section here on T4R where people have detailed the preventative measures they have to take continually).

 

[pablopakman]

Do *NOT* pay $4k for a new frame; you can probably get another 3rd gen at that price, and keep your motor/tranny around in case the 'new to you' 3rd gen has issues with either of those. I.e. keep your current truck for parts, minus the frame obviously.

[MENTION=10169]TheDurk[/MENTION] did a backyard frame swap due to the same issue. Check out his signature for a link.

If you get another frame that isn't as rusty through another 3rd gen, make sure you protect it this time with something like FluidFilm or POR-15, etc etc (You can find many PA and northeast owner threads on the 3rd gen section here on T4R where people have detailed the preventative measures they have to take continually).

Yea i know but finding another 3rd gen, with a manual trans, that doesn't also have a rusty frame, or list of other issues is a challenge to say the least. Any decent one i've found, the seller is asking for $8-15k. I guess i have a year to find one, and to look further west, but up in the NE the pickings are slim...

I think this might be a good course of action though overall... just to buy another one.

 

[gamefreakgc]

I think your only real options are either to buy a new frame and try a swap, or get a new vehicle. Don't pay a shop to repair the frame on a vehicle that's worth as much or less than the repair itself.

The Durk did swap his frame successfully but it was a very labor intensive job.

 

[habskater11]

I live in NNJ by mountain creek off rt 287. I have a 3rd gen that was rear ended, but the frame is straight no rust. Let me know if you want a price on it. I'm still picking a few parts off it but when I'm done we could make something happen potentially. Send me a message

 

[pablopakman]

I think your only real options are either to buy a new frame and try a swap, or get a new vehicle. Don't pay a shop to repair the frame on a vehicle that's worth as much or less than the repair itself.

The Durk did swap his frame successfully but it was a very labor intensive job.

I clicked through that post and yes, it does look extremely labor intensive. I've seen other frame swap threads and they didn't look any more fun. My biggest fear would be to go through all that work and get rear ended a week later and have it totalled...

Well i'm glad i'm asking and pretty much anyone i've talked to agrees paying for a frame swap would be stupid.

 

[2ndhandyotaman]

Potential issue for doing a frame swap is that the VIN on the chassis will not match the VIN on the body or title. I ran into that issue years ago on a CJ5, the Maryland State Police got involved when the vehicle went back for a 2nd inspection and the VIN's didn't match. It ended up being impounded ( at my expense ) and I had to provide documentation for the parts Jeep that I got the frame from.

After proving that I legally owned all of the parts used for the repair, I had to apply for a salvage certificate, have a salvage inspection done, then a regular state inspection done at the MD State Police facility, then apply for a reconstruction title for the vehicle. I eventually got the branded title and was able to tag the Jeep, but it was hands down the biggest headache I've ever dealt with in regards to title work for a vehicle.

I only bring this up because you are basically making a reconstructed vehicle. I don't how how much of a headache it could become for you in PA, it's just something to be aware of. Ideally, at least from a legal standpoint you might be better off using a donor chassis to repair your rusted sections, or use your good drive-train and make the donor vehicle driveable again.

 

[kolelt]

You can buy a clean auto 4runner. And swap over the manual. How hard can it be ? When you have the donor truck ? Many 5speed swaps done on the forum including my self. I would not spend 4K on a frame. When you can find a good 4runner for that price.

 

[pablopakman]

Potential issue for doing a frame swap is that the VIN on the chassis will not match the VIN on the body or title. I ran into that issue years ago on a CJ5, the Maryland State Police got involved when the vehicle went back for a 2nd inspection and the VIN's didn't match. It ended up being impounded ( at my expense ) and I had to provide documentation for the parts Jeep that I got the frame from.

After proving that I legally owned all of the parts used for the repair, I had to apply for a salvage certificate, have a salvage inspection done, then a regular state inspection done at the MD State Police facility, then apply for a reconstruction title for the vehicle. I eventually got the branded title and was able to tag the Jeep, but it was hands down the biggest headache I've ever dealt with in regards to title work for a vehicle.

I only bring this up because you are basically making a reconstructed vehicle. I don't how how much of a headache it could become for you in PA, it's just something to be aware of. Ideally, at least from a legal standpoint you might be better off using a donor chassis to repair your rusted sections, or use your good drive-train and make the donor vehicle driveable again.

Wow, thats something i never considered. Thats another +1 for not trying a frame swap. I'm glad you guys are bringing this stuff up.

 

[pablopakman]

You can buy a clean auto 4runner. And swap over the manual. How hard can it be ? When you have the donor truck ? Many 5speed swaps done on the forum including my self. I would not spend 4K on a frame. When you can find a good 4runner for that price.

That was going to be my next question was how hard is a manual tranny swap. I really like the manual and i'm finding autos around for pretty cheap. We will be driving down to Orlando at the end of Feb, and i'm looking at craigslist down there at the local cheap 4runners that i could just buy and pull back on a trailer so that is another option.

I think its sounding like keep my truck as a doner and find a decent used one.

 

[phattyduck]

*If* you do the frame swap and *if* you have reasonable welding skills... buy a cheap rust-free 2WD to start with. Match your year to make sure all the body mounts are the same. Converting a 2WD frame to a 4WD frame involves moving 1 crossmember and will save you thousands in finding a good swap candidate. You can probably sell the engine and trans to make up for it.

OR - do a 4WD swap using your parts on a good southern 2WD truck. Same deal - one crossmember, everything else will bolt in.

-Charlie

 

[tvpierce]

Potential issue for doing a frame swap is that the VIN on the chassis will not match the VIN on the body or title. I ran into that issue years ago on a CJ5, the Maryland State Police got involved when the vehicle went back for a 2nd inspection and the VIN's didn't match. It ended up being impounded ( at my expense ) and I had to provide documentation for the parts Jeep that I got the frame from.

After proving that I legally owned all of the parts used for the repair, I had to apply for a salvage certificate, have a salvage inspection done, then a regular state inspection done at the MD State Police facility, then apply for a reconstruction title for the vehicle. I eventually got the branded title and was able to tag the Jeep, but it was hands down the biggest headache I've ever dealt with in regards to title work for a vehicle.

I only bring this up because you are basically making a reconstructed vehicle. I don't how how much of a headache it could become for you in PA, it's just something to be aware of. Ideally, at least from a legal standpoint you might be better off using a donor chassis to repair your rusted sections, or use your good drive-train and make the donor vehicle driveable again.

Does the annual inspection in Maryland require the shop to compare VINs on the frame and the body of the vehicle? That's pretty extensive.

 

[TheDurk]

Potential issue for doing a frame swap is that the VIN on the chassis will not match the VIN on the body or title. I ran into that issue years ago on a CJ5, the Maryland State Police got involved when the vehicle went back for a 2nd inspection and the VIN's didn't match. It ended up being impounded ( at my expense ) and I had to provide documentation for the parts Jeep that I got the frame from.

After proving that I legally owned all of the parts used for the repair, I had to apply for a salvage certificate, have a salvage inspection done, then a regular state inspection done at the MD State Police facility, then apply for a reconstruction title for the vehicle. I eventually got the branded title and was able to tag the Jeep, but it was hands down the biggest headache I've ever dealt with in regards to title work for a vehicle.

I only bring this up because you are basically making a reconstructed vehicle. I don't how how much of a headache it could become for you in PA, it's just something to be aware of. Ideally, at least from a legal standpoint you might be better off using a donor chassis to repair your rusted sections, or use your good drive-train and make the donor vehicle driveable again.

There is no VIN on the frame, surprisingly enough. Just the frame number, which is a glorified model code, not a serial. Not an issue.

Don't tell me it's hidden. I wire-wheeled and POR-15'd every square inch of that frame. NO VIN on old one or new one.

Also, no difference between 5-speed frames and autos. I put an auto on my 5-speed. Only 2WD and 4wd and I think 4-cyl and 6-cyl.

Also, the variations in body mounts by year are no sweat, if you have the mount hardware from the original. The frame itself does not change. They just redesigned the mount hardware. I put an '02 on my 1999.

 

[TheDurk]

Farrrk me, reason enough for not doing a frame swap.

Read my post. That is NOT an issue. NO VIN on frame on our trucks.
Here is the list of required VIN locations. Note that the frame is not included.

(1) Engine.
(2) Transmission.
(3) Right front fender.
(4) Left front fender.
(5) Hood.
(6) Right front door.
(7) Left front door.
(8) Right rear door.
(9) Left rear door.
(10) Sliding or cargo door(s).
(11) Front bumper.
(12) Rear bumper.
(13) Right rear quarter panel (passenger cars).
(14) Left rear quarter panel (passenger cars).
(15) Right-side assembly (MPVs).
(16) Left-side assembly (MPVs).
(17) Pickup box, and/or cargo box (LDTs).
(18) Rear door(s) (both doors in case of double doors), decklid, tailgate, or hatchback (whichever is present).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/565.13

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/541.5

 

[phattyduck]

There is no VIN on the frame, surprisingly enough. Just the frame number, which is a glorified model code, not a serial. Not an issue.

The frame number is serialized. It isn't the full VIN, but the last 7 digits of my VIN match the number on the frame...

-Charlie

 

[TheDurk]

The frame number is serialized. It isn't the full VIN, but the last 7 digits of my VIN match the number on the frame...

-Charlie

Then it changed. Both of mine are just the frame code, which is all letters after the hyphen and not unique.

The code on my '99 was VZN185L-GKMGKA

 

[pablopakman]

Then it changed. Both of mine are just the frame code, which is all letters after the hyphen and not unique.

The code on my '99 was VZN185L-GKMGKA

Thedurk, if you had to do it again would you swap frames or just buy another truck and possibly swap in a manual tranny down the road?

 

[TheDurk]

Thedurk, if you had to do it again would you swap frames or just buy another truck and possibly swap in a manual tranny down the road?

No, I would do it again. I've owned this truck since it's birth, so there is more value in preserving a truck maintained by me.

I can't say I'd recommend it for most people. I'm retired and I had the time and I also have a spare ride. So it made sense.

 

[mike_m]

frame VIN #

Interesting thread. Out of curiosity I check to see if the last 7 digits on my frame match the VIN and it does as well. I have a 2000 4runner with 5 speed.

 

[TheDurk]

Interesting thread. Out of curiosity I check to see if the last 7 digits on my frame match the VIN and it does as well. I have a 2000 4runner with 5 speed.

I'll check mine tomorrow. If I'm wrong, I'll say so.