Hybrid 4 Runner?

[Falls]

Re: Hybrids etc.

I would agree that more could be done to work the current gas engine design to push better mileage (maybe even give up a little bit of horsepower) If a 80,000 lb disel truck can get around 6 to 7 mpg then you should be able to get a 3800 to 4000 lb truck get better than 21 mpg.

But instead all we see is bigger engines, larger trucks and it just keeps going. I don't understand how everyone can afford it now at around 55.00 per tank but they just keep driving and going 85 mph. No cares.

sorry if this seems like a rant.

Paul C

I totally agree , there is totally room for improvement on gas milage in diesel and especially gas engines. I believe they have the capability to do it without a problem , but they don't because of the oil company relationship with automakers.

I also don't understand how they can keep building bigger & bigger trucks , more powerful engines , that suck big fuel. The act like gas is going for 1.50 per gallon and going down. It does not make sense to me . I think in the near future the big full size truck ( both new & used sales ) will be in the tank......big time.

GM recently came out with their new 900 platform , Avalanche , Tahoe , Burb , Silverado , plus all the GMC and Caddy models and expect them to pull them up out of the hole they are in this high priced gas market......I don't get it .

Toyota Tundra on the other hand ( impressive truck and love the Max cab with the short box
but they have a lot of other vehicles that sell very well to carry them that are fuel friendly and have good reputation and quality , where as the others really don't. I still think the Tundra will be a tough sell in this time and market.

Back to the Hybrid question..... thats why I'm so against this , and say its a consumer scam , because I know they can make good fuel economy in their vehicles with gas engines ..... its all politics , and big profits ..... makes me sick , but what you gonna do . It has nothing to do with Bush , since they all have done it in any administration. Just my .02 .... drive what you like and make the best of it .

 

[Paul2660]

I looked seriously at the hybrid technology and I still feel it has some possiblities, but like someone else pointed out, now it seems that most hybrids are combining a high output engine and the battery system for a greater horsepower (mayber more green) system.

If you look at the reviews on a hybrid cards, Prius, or Civic, if they are driven within the correct means, they can pull very good MPG, however they will preform best in town, not on the highway, which is true for all hybrids.

The Toyota Highlander, Hybrid, which I looked at many times, has one major issue for me, it can't be driven off road Toyota even states that in the information. And if you look under it, you can see all the hybird parts that might get damaged. By offroad, I just mean standard forest servcie roads, with some slight off camber road beds, nothing serious. The Highlander was rated at 31 in town and 27 hwy which for a "suv" is not bad. The downside was that the cost was around 40K and this was a medium trim version no a limited. So again you are paying a large premium for the technology.

The build quality of the Highlander IMO was better than Ford's Escape, but on the filp side you could get into a hybrid Escape for around 30K.

There has to be some type of compromise of mpg vs horsepower that would allow a standard gas engine to perform in the lower range of the hybrids.

Paul C

 

[Uneek]

I think another reason why the Highlander Hybrid and the RX400h can't be taken off road is the motors would overheat. I read it somewhere and the motors aren't designed to be running all the time, only when slippage is detected and to help correct skidding.

Someone over at ClubLexus did some calculations for the premium paid on a hybrid. IIRC, at $2.50 a gallon, I think breakeven was at 140k miles given the savings. Which for me, I would get a hybrid for more performance, not so much for gas savings.

 

[lockerc18]

Hybrids - railroads

First of all, I'd like to compliment all those who contributed to this thread. I have to say, it really is great to have such informed and useful discourse on a topic like this.

Second, I'd offer that railroad engines are hybrids (at least the diesel electric engines are, which are the most common today) and they are hugely successful, passing the 6,000 horsepower threshold. Not that such an engine would be very practical in a 4Runner frame, of course. But the point is that if we can run an industry like the railroads on these hybrid engines, it would seem to me that the technology exists today, and it can be scaled to the automotive industry in a way which is much broader and cost effective that is being done. Why make hybrids the eccentric choice? Why not make them the standard choice? And, why not build and package them so that they are durable enough to take offroad? That can't be all that difficult.

 

[Jeff Kleb]

Re: Hybrids - railroads

Second, I'd offer that railroad engines are hybrids (at least the diesel electric engines are, which are the most common today) and they are hugely successful, passing the 6,000 horsepower threshold. Not that such an engine would be very practical in a 4Runner frame, of course.

That would make for a very, very long hood on a 4Runner. You would not be able to have a sunroof, since the exhaust fans would have to vent through the roof.

But the point is that if we can run an industry like the railroads on these hybrid engines, it would seem to me that the technology exists today, and it can be scaled to the automotive industry in a way which is much broader and cost effective that is being done. Why make hybrids the eccentric choice? Why not make them the standard choice? And, why not build and package them so that they are durable enough to take offroad? That can't be all that difficult.

I suspect that the size, weight and cost of such a powerplant would be prohibitive....but advances in technology may be able to overcome such obstacles.

At least we won't have to lay down a set of tracks for a diesel-electric SUV.
:bigok:

 

[Paul2660]

Railroad engines

Yes, I agree. You have a diesel-electric power plant. The engine itself is powered by electricity, produced by a diesel generator motor.

Actually a very efficient setup.

As today we hit 3.25 up .25 cents in two days, I am still amazed that the average driver seems not to care.

No one slows down, everyone is going 75 plus, so $60.00 per tank I guess is OK. I saw premium at 3.60 to 3.65 today.

Arkansas
Paul C

 

[GatorGreg]

I test drove a hybrid Highlander as well as a hybrid Camry just to see what all the hubbub was about. The Highlander was very nice as it was a fully loaded AWD Limited with leather and Navigation. Much more power than I expected - seemed way overpriced though with a sticker around $42K I think. The Camry seemed much cheaper, not a fair comparison though cuz it wasn't a fully loaded model and it was a butt ugly kermit the frog green color

 

[Uneek]

it was a butt ugly kermit the frog green color

Not like they need that color to help sell the "green" image. I've seen numerous nasty looking green Camry Hybrids as well and a '08 RX350 and LS460 in green. Green was such a 90s color.

 

[ysrsquid]

Great thread. I personally would like to purchase a diesel or hybrid in my next vehicle (5 more years till that point).

Gasoline engine cars have come very far in fuel economy and performance. I just think back to the bad old days of the 70s/80s when Detroit cars were absolute slugs. Today's fuel injected cars run great and I would expect that ther V.E. numbers would blow the doors off of the hot rods of the 60s.

I hold onto cars forever. They don't leave until they have over 300k miles. I am currenty driving a 88 BMW 528e which averages around 25mpg. I'm happy with the vehicle and the performance for a daily driver even though it is a low rpm torque type motor. Just Friday I was running an errand and I was waiting at a light. It's one of those lights where everyone has to wait in a certain lane (left lane this time) in order to go in a common direction (onto the freeway in my case). Someone pulls up in the right lane in order to bypass all of the backup in the left lane and jump onto the freeway.

Well, since I'm at the front of the line it will be my job to prevent the heretic from cutting in front of everyone. I figure that my 4door 528e could be wide enough to prevent a PRIUS hybrid from ever getting on the freeway in front of me.

Wrong.

That Prius absolutely jumped off the light. I was expecting Geo type acceleration but the Prius was suprisingly quick.... Who knows, he might have to have it plugged in for the next week to recover the batteries.

A quick look at the Lexus site shows that the RX hybrid has 265hp. The gas motor has 270hp.

Diesels have come a long way since my dad's Mercedes 300TD which took eons to hit 60mph. An Audi diesel won the overall Siebring last year.

Will I buy a hybrid. Yes, once I know that price and reliability are there. If it takes 140k miles to break even on the RX how many people are really going to hold onto thier car for 5 - 7 years just to break even. It seems that too many people in U.S. will change out cars within 7 years just to get something new. Maybe the affordability will to be the second owner of the hybrid. Let the first owner take the deflation hit. If the Lexus/Toyota hybrid is truely as reliable as other Toyotas, then the second ownwer won't get hit with significant maintence and services (I have no idea what the maintence is on a hybrid).

BTW - if you want to save fuel... how about riding a motorcycle (40mpg while flogging the Ducati) or just telecommute to work?

Dave

 

[TheBlueWave]

I ride my bike to work and around town whenever I can, limiting my runner to highway miles as much as possible. Wantanabe at Toyota said the company plans to have hybrid powertrains standard on all vehicles by 2020, and by 2010 have added at least 3 more models with hybrid powertrains.
Falls- I know you think they will be gone soon, but as manufacturing costs come down we will see more and more of them, but I agree that they are uneconomical at this time and we should drive what we like and make the best of it.
Please people, stay away from ethanol and don't vote in public servants/officials that support it :infidel: !

 

[pipspeak]

Hydrogen, on the other hand, seems like a huge scam. It seems like it was concocted so that the current oil companies could switch over to supplying hydrogen. Thus they would be saved.

Exactly... hydrogen's being marketed as an alternative to fossil fuels which is a little misleading cosidering it's currently derived from natural gas, which is a fossil fuel. And making it by splitting water is just way too energy intensive to be viable.

It's only advantage is that it's clean burning. Not sure how it compares mileage-wise.

 

[Indiana]

Look into hybrids a bit further guys. I agree that people are being really stupid lately by not looking at the long-term cost, but hybrids cost no more in the long term to maintain than a conventional gas engine.

Also, there isn't one commercially available electric vehicle, so it's not a very strong argument that they are releasing electric cars every day that we need to "charge". Hybrid vehicles are simply more efficient, and utilize regenerative breaking, which is a concept that can't be implemented in conventional vehicles because you can't turn torque into gas to power the vehicle. But you CAN turn torque into electricity to power the vehicle. Hence the efficiency.

As to finding a reason to invade another country for their oil, isn't it enough incentive to use alternative fuels that we can help the environment by doing so? Personally I don't care if there's plenty of oil, I'd rather not use more than I have to.

 

[JoJoBetsy]

Blah...hybrid schmibrid. Trucks are powered by gas, and better trucks are powered by deisel. Make a deisel option and leave the hybrid technobabble to the commuter rat race types who you'll catch hugging a tree as you 4 wheel by them on the trail.

One of the best South Park episodes was about hybrid snobs. What a hoot!

 

[GLT]

Great thread, as usual, well reasoned info from the members here.

Since the overall subject here is way to complex to be completely covered in a forum such as this, I will give my opinion - without backup.


Hybrid? Sure fine, when they get them right. The US is the Saudi Arabia of coal. and many improvements have been made to make it cleaner burning. If you burn it cleanly to make electricity then you have less dependence on oil from foreign countries, and less pollution than 100 million purely gasoline engines. A double win.

Of course, our Canadian friends with their vast wealth in the oil sands may not appreciate this.

Ethanol is a joke, and highly political. CR (highly loved here) is, in my opinion a bunch of "environmentalist wackos". Even they desparaged it in an article "The Myth of Ethanol". It does take a lot of energy to produce, and so far, results in far fewer MPG's when used. A double loss.

I'll buy a hybrid/electric when my '06 wears out, and when it makes financial sense to do so (including repair costs).

GLT

 

[4runnersurf]

I read an article stating that Toyota's entire line of drivetrains will be hybrid, they will not make gasoline only vehicles. I think that's awesome, but how hight are they going to raise the price since there will be no alternative?

 

[Pincushion]

Hybrids, as we see today, are simply being used as test beds for technology development(batteries) and to make tree huggers and politicians feel good. I rented a Prius and drove it 200 miles on the highway. It got 38MPG. A Corolla will get almost the same mileage and costs $7k less. $7k buys a lot of gas. A hybrid won't make significant advances in efficiency until they start making series hybrids. A series hybrid is simply an electric vehicle with a small generator to keep the batteries charged. A 1 liter diesel could keep a charge on a vehicle with regenerative braking and 300hp of electric motors. If you switch the generator off, you can charge your car at home for even cheaper driving.

 

[MAC4Runner]

Electric hybrids and off-roading don't mix. The electric motors cannot sustain torque over long periods. Read the owner's manual to a RX400. It specifically states not to use off-road.

:bash:

 

[toyota4life]

unless I start seeing hybrids hitting 200K miles without major expenses (i.e. having batteries replaced) I vote no. Otherwise, the cost of maintenance almost offsets the gas savings.

 

[josh220]

With the extra money you fork out for the different engine, it will take you many years before it ever pays for itself.

 

[SH0ck-D]

don't forget that it will take even longer to pay the interest on the loans.