Hybrid Battery Replacement Rate...wow!

[Thai]

Link: Hybrids: The High Cost of Low Batteries - Newsweek.com

"Toyota says its out-of-warranty battery replacement rate is 0.003 percent on the second generation Prius that debuted in the 2004 model year. That equals about one out of 40,000 Priuses sold, says Toyota spokesman John Hanson. That's a vast improvement over the first generation Prius, which had about 1 percent of the batteries fail after the warranty expired. Hanson says today's Prius batteries are designed to last "the life of the car," which Toyota defines as 180,000 miles."

"Philip Card of Utica, N.Y., says a Toyota dealer wanted to charge him $3,900 to replace the battery on his 2001 Prius, which had 350,000 miles on it when he bought it used on eBay this year for $4,357."

 

[JohnsD90]

Link: Hybrids: The High Cost of Low Batteries - Newsweek.com

"Toyota says its out-of-warranty battery replacement rate is 0.003 percent on the second generation Prius that debuted in the 2004 model year. That equals about one out of 40,000 Priuses sold, says Toyota spokesman John Hanson. That's a vast improvement over the first generation Prius, which had about 1 percent of the batteries fail after the warranty expired. Hanson says today's Prius batteries are designed to last "the life of the car," which Toyota defines as 180,000 miles."

"Philip Card of Utica, N.Y., says a Toyota dealer wanted to charge him $3,900 to replace the battery on his 2001 Prius, which had 350,000 miles on it when he bought it used on eBay this year for $4,357."

What do they do with said batteries after their useful life is over? Is it cheap to "safely" dispose of? Is it environmently friendly?

 

[Thai]

What do they do with said batteries after their useful life is over? Is it cheap to "safely" dispose of? Is it environmently friendly?

I think that they recycle it...but i am not sure. Good questions though.

 

[Thai]

What do they do with said batteries after their useful life is over? Is it cheap to "safely" dispose of? Is it environmently friendly?

Found the answer via GOOGLING:

"How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?

The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the carmaker.

Battery toxicity is a concern, although today's hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled."

 

[JohnsD90]

Found the answer via GOOGLING:

"How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?

The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the carmaker.

Battery toxicity is a concern, although today's hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled."

It is quite expensive and not very environmently friendly, whilst a diesel motor doesnt cost anything to be recycled, because you actually get money back. And the Lead Acid batteries have a recovery rate of 98%, and they are worth money when they are recycled. At the moment this hybrid technology is very costly and potentially harmful to the environment.

 

[JeremyH]

NiMH, seriously?!?!? I cant believe they are using 20 year old technology for those packs. A lithium based battery is much lighter, more powerful, holds a charge longer and doesn't have any cell memory....

 

[Thai]

It is quite expensive and not very environmently friendly, whilst a diesel motor doesnt cost anything to be recycled, because you actually get money back. And the Lead Acid batteries have a recovery rate of 98%, and they are worth money when they are recycled. At the moment this hybrid technology is very costly and potentially harmful to the environment.

Actually, if you read the first article, then you will see that the prices for the hybrid batteries have dropped quite a bit. The prices are around $2000-3000 depending on brand...and this is for a brand new unit. With the more hybrids on the road, the prices will likely drop even more over the next year or two.

BTW, the warranty for a Prius in California is 10 years or 150,000 miles. So, the technology is proven and long lasting. The fact that Toyota warranties it for 150k miles means that it can easily go beyond that without an issue. The guy above had to replace his 1st GENERATION Prius battery for the first time at 350,000 miles!! (BTW, the current gen Prius battery is much more advance than the 1st gen and will likely last even longer!)

How much is diesel these days?? It is as much as PREMIUM gas in my area...not particularly cost effective.

And not sure where you got "not very environmentally friendly" from...you can read the above...the batteries are fully recycled at the end of their life...so, not much (if at all) impact on the environment.

Now, on the other hand, diesel is not particular environmentally friendly in the fumes that it gives off. So, now, Mercedes & BMW (and others) have come up with the Bluetec (or whatever it is called) additive with every oil change to make it more environmentally friendly. Hmmm, not every cost effective, is it??

And why do you think MB, BMW, Nissan, etc. are rushing to bring Hybrid technology to the market?? It works. It is efficient. It is environmentally sound.

Again, i encourage you to READ and READ MORE about stuff before you post, John. PLEASE. Do you even bother to read before you post or do you just post fanboy claims only?? :shrug:

 

[Thai]

NiMH, seriously?!?!? I cant believe they are using 20 year old technology for those packs. A lithium based battery is much lighter, more powerful, holds a charge longer and doesn't have any cell memory....

Lithium technology is being perfected at this time. The problem with Li battery is heat. I forgot whether it creates too much heat or that it cannot within heat. I think that it is the latter. This is why the Chevy Volt will have limited distribution...so, folks in TX or Miami may never see a Volt. Now, this is a very fast evolving technology. I am sure that over the next 1-2 years, this problem will be solved. And this is why Toyota did not use Li battery in the 3rd gen Prius (and Ford did not use it in the Fusion Hybrid)......yet. Toyota is currently testing the Li battery in the "plug-in" 3rd gen Prius this or next year. But, again, it will be on a limited distribution basis to only a few customers. Infiniti is also coming out with Li-battery based M35 in a year or so.

 

[JeremyH]

Yes, Lithium Polymer batteries do not perform was well in colder temperatures. RC racers have been using LiPo batteries for years with great success. They have recently been focused on increasing the charge rate. Most packs will now charge at a rate about 45 times their capacity (NiMH should still be charged at 1 times their capacity).

However, the ambient temp should not be a problem....just setup a "block heater" plugin system like diesels currently use....

IMO, Lipos have more positives than negatives.

 

[JohnsD90]

Actually, if you read the first article, then you will see that the prices for the hybrid batteries have dropped quite a bit. The prices are around $2000-3000 depending on brand...and this is for a brand new unit. With the more hybrids on the road, the prices will likely drop even more over the next year or two.

BTW, the warranty for a Prius in California is 10 years or 150,000 miles. So, the technology is proven and long lasting. The fact that Toyota warranties it for 150k miles means that it can easily go beyond that without an issue. The guy above had to replace his 1st GENERATION Prius battery for the first time at 350,000 miles!! (BTW, the current gen Prius battery is much more advance than the 1st gen and will likely last even longer!)

How much is diesel these days?? It is as much as PREMIUM gas in my area...not particularly cost effective.

And not sure where you got "not very environmentally friendly" from...you can read the above...the batteries are fully recycled at the end of their life...so, not much (if at all) impact on the environment.

Now, on the other hand, diesel is not particular environmentally friendly in the fumes that it gives off. So, now, Mercedes & BMW (and others) have come up with the Bluetec (or whatever it is called) additive with every oil change to make it more environmentally friendly. Hmmm, not every cost effective, is it??

And why do you think MB, BMW, Nissan, etc. are rushing to bring Hybrid technology to the market?? It works. It is efficient. It is environmentally sound.

Again, i encourage you to READ and READ MORE about stuff before you post, John. PLEASE. Do you even bother to read before you post or do you just post fanboy claims only?? :shrug:

So i guess you have worked in the recycling process of batteries, and know the first hand figures and what happens in the process?

 

[JohnsD90]

How much is diesel these days?? It is as much as PREMIUM gas in my area...not particularly cost effective.

And not sure where you got "not very environmentally friendly" from...you can read the above...the batteries are fully recycled at the end of their life...so, not much (if at all) impact on the environment.

Now, on the other hand, diesel is not particular environmentally friendly in the fumes that it gives off. So, now, Mercedes & BMW (and others) have come up with the Bluetec (or whatever it is called) additive with every oil change to make it more environmentally friendly. Hmmm, not every cost effective, is it??

And why do you think MB, BMW, Nissan, etc. are rushing to bring Hybrid technology to the market?? It works. It is efficient. It is environmentally sound.

50mpg, out of a 10 year old tdi Jetta, and that is with performance mods. It runs on Ultra low sulfer diesel which is 15 PPM. And Then you can run on Bio diesel which is said to reduce Carbon emmisions of a diesel of 75%. Diesel around me is about $.15 more expensive than regular. Yeah that's very uneconomical and its very harmful to the environment.

 

[Thai]

50mpg, out of a 10 year old tdi Jetta, and that is with performance mods. It runs on Ultra low sulfer diesel which is 15 PPM. And Then you can run on Bio diesel which is said to reduce Carbon emmisions of a diesel of 75%. Diesel around me is about $.15 more expensive than regular. Yeah that's very uneconomical and its very harmful to the environment.

Yeah, you need to share your secrets with VW because they can't get even close to that with their cars! :toilet3:

 

[Thai]

So i guess you have worked in the recycling process of batteries, and know the first hand figures and what happens in the process?

Do your parents?? If YOU do know, then please share with us. From your statement, i assume that you know first hand info about this, right?

 

[JeremyH]

Yeah, you need to share your secrets with VW because they can't get even close to that with their cars! :toilet3:

Yeah....they've been putting that TDI in Jettas for years and have been getting close to that. My mom has a newer jetta and averages about 45 (city/hwy).

 

[JohnsD90]

Do your parents?? If YOU do know, then please share with us. From your statement, i assume that you know first hand info about this, right?

Well, i worked in the Battery recycling end of the electronic scrap Program where my Dad works, he happened to run the Program all last year. So what do you want to know, cause i worked in the program, and my dad ran and helped develop it.

 

[JohnsD90]

Yeah, you need to share your secrets with VW because they can't get even close to that with their cars! :toilet3:

Yeah i know, 70mpg (Polo Blumotion) is quite far from 50mpg, but they do offer vehicles that still get 55mpg (scirrocco tdi, jetta tdi, golf tdi). Yeah 5mpg is really far off. EPA estimates for diesel in america are low, whilst Hybrid estimates are high. Granted i gave you figures in THIS post from the european diesel model VW's. But the US figures aren't far off.

 

[Roams001]

Yeah i know, 70mpg (Polo Blumotion) is quite far from 50mpg, but they do offer vehicles that still get 55mpg (scirrocco tdi, jetta tdi, golf tdi). Yeah 5mpg is really far off. EPA estimates for diesel in america are low, whilst Hybrid estimates are high. Granted i gave you figures in THIS post from the european diesel model VW's. But the US figures aren't far off.

2006 TDI here...~40/50 city/highway at 80 mph all day long. Run 100% bio in the summers - transesterfied chicken fat from the poultry farms in MD and DEL and a blend in the winter. Never any smoke or stink and pretty quiet (the new CR is 10x quieter).

We have the older Pump Duse (Unit Injector) engine, the new Common Rails are so sweet...x2 on the EPA ratings on the diesels, not sure why they're so skewed.

I wish they'd bring the Polo to the US.

 

[Thai]

Well, i worked in the Battery recycling end of the electronic scrap Program where my Dad works, he happened to run the Program all last year. So what do you want to know, cause i worked in the program, and my dad ran and helped develop it.

Good...so, how does Toyota and Honda recycle their NiM battery??

 

[Thai]

2006 TDI here...~40/50 city/highway at 80 mph all day long. Run 100% bio in the summers - transesterfied chicken fat from the poultry farms in MD and DEL and a blend in the winter. Never any smoke or stink and pretty quiet (the new CR is 10x quieter).

We have the older Pump Duse (Unit Injector) engine, the new Common Rails are so sweet...x2 on the EPA ratings on the diesels, not sure why they're so skewed.

I wish they'd bring the Polo to the US.

EPA actually usually favors diesel and gasoline engines, but penalizes hybrids.

 

[JohnsD90]

EPA actually usually favors diesel and gasoline engines, but penalizes hybrids.

Not really, On the diesel the EPA estimates are really low, maybe they do the same on the hybrids. But i want to make this clear, i am not against Hybrids, i know just as well as Jeremey does (I am into RC cars too) that the technology of these batteries is being developed and has great potential, but it needs to be further developed before it is a solution.

Good...so, how does Toyota and Honda recycle their NiM battery??

It was a program set up by the company and the county, irrelevant to a car company, but i do know the recycling of these NIHM's is not a sustainable industry (at the moment), it costs a lot of money to recycle them, therefor unless there are government incentives you will find a lot of people would rather just throw these batteries out instead of paying money to get rid of them.