I feel frustrated as a lifelong Toyota fan. Anyone else?

[thedamartini]

I want to start this by saying I'm a lifelong Toyota owner so far. First car was a 95' Camry I got when I was 15, went to a Tacoma, and am now in a 16' 4Runner at 29 years old.

I felt like Toyota used to embrace their history. I feel like Toyota is doing their best to weed out anything enthusiast friendly off road or on. Their only "sports" car is a Subaru.. The Supra is set to be a BMW. I mean come on Toyota..

I bought a 16' Tacoma when they came out. I was so excited to own the next generation of Toyota truck only to be met by under filled transmission that slipped and later went on to damage itself and leak out the rear diff fluid which froze it up on an intersection in traffic! So I did some research and I feel the 5th gen 4R is one of the last real Toyotas sold here. Solidly built, capable, 100% made in Japan. It's been flawless. I love it.

With that said, Toyota has some really cool shit overseas. Why do they continue to just give the 4x4 market to Jeep? Why isn't there a short wheelbase LC based vehicle with a solid front as an FJ? Bring the 80 series. Make the next generation xJZGTE. I love Toyota. My Dad drives a Tundra, Mom a RAV4, I have a 4R. I just feel Toyota is working to rid itself of enthusiast vehicles and just sell vanilla vehicles.

Their legacy of quality isn't going to mean anything with what I feel is some really strong competition. Seems I always hear the CAFE excuse when everyone else is shoehorning diesels, turbos, and all manner of new features into vehicles.

I feel Toyota couldn't innovate its way out of a paper bag right now and am worried that this 5th gen 4R I love will be one of the last Toyotas in the sense of how I remember them.

What do you think?

 

[Ray Dunakin]

I just feel Toyota is working to rid itself of enthusiast vehicles and just sell vanilla vehicles.

It's not just Toyota, and IMHO it's mostly due to the ever-stricter government regulations. They have to keep adding more and more "safety" features that drive up the cost, plus complex pollution control gadgets, all while also cutting weight, etc to squeeze more miles out of a gallon of gas.

 

[Mass 4runner]

Agreed. The 4runner is my first Toyota and I love it, but other than the budget busting Land Cruiser, the 5th gen 4runner is the only current Toyota that I feel lives up to their legacy.

 

[theoutbackdream]

The world isn't just what it used to be before. Most consumers in the states don't even have a clue, let alone, know to even maintain their car(even by bringing their car to a dealer). The problem is, theres just no more incentive to make a great car any more, states side, because most consumers in the states are borderline retarded and/or, just think of a car as a transportation device, from A to B. They just don't give a F*** about their car or anyones car, and will knowingly dent other peoples cars. Furthermore, the US has the most retarded car standards in the world. Safety, smog, etc.. Why would they put in all the extra time to comply with the retarded safety/smog standards of the US, when they could build an even better car in another country? FFS, most american's can't even drive, or even know what the hell a manual transmission is. Other countries? Most people KNOW/LEARN how to drive with a stick. On top of that, the US driving standard is COMPLETE BS. You could literally pass the driving test high on drugs.

If you go to Japan, you'll actually have car enthusiasts and/or people who respect cars. They maintain them regularly(due to laws), but know to do so as well and dont have all these stupid laws for smog. It's unlikely you'll see dinged up car, or with a head light out, etc, in Japan or Europe. Hell, Crash rating standards are better in Europe and Asia, but it's not approved by the US government, thus, we can't import them, along with the stupid smog laws we need to comply to. I get that we can't have open downpipes, blowing smog, etc and all, but COME ON. The US gov expect most cars to have the same emissions every time they get smogged, as if they just came out of a factory.

So to answer your question, I honestly don't think it's (as a whole) Toyota's fault at all. Toyota USA is building an adequate car for the majority of Americans who can't maintain their car, regularly drive like idiots causing accidents, and think that a car is just a transportation device. For the rest of the world, Toyota is building what we get here, and also investing on the enthusiast type Toyota's because it's just worth their time and money to do so.

Examples:
Toyota Mark, kind of like our Avalon
Prius
Basically a Yaris
Their GT86? Look at them seats. They're actually bucket seats. And our trim levels from factory? Our Special edition doesn't even compete.

Subaru?
They've got a WRX S4, which beats the living crap out of our WRX. STI? STI Type S? STI S207? S208? They are able to get recarros and the car is just set up so much better from factory. Look for yourself.

Levorg? They've got a family wagon. They've got a Levorg STI too.

This could keep going on. But my point being... Toyota USA is just building an adequate car for the majority of American's who don't give a crap about their cars and knowingly bang up peoples cars and aren't enthusiasts. The rest of the world is building that same/similar adequate car for the majority of people, but are also making the vehicles for the people who are actually car enthusiasts.

 

[WanderlostOverland]

Don’t blame Toyota for doing what it needs to do to be successful in the US market. Blame the soccer moms and mall-crawlers that want a tough “looking” SUV but don’t want it to drive rough or be the least bit challenging to handle. They import models that the vast majority of American new car buyers want. We offroad enthusiasts are a very small niche consumer group.

 

[wanderMT]

Don’t blame Toyota for doing what it needs to do to be successful in the US market. Blame the soccer moms and mall-crawlers that want a tough “looking” SUV but don’t want it to drive rough or be the least bit challenging to handle. They import models that the vast majority of American new car buyers want. We offroad enthusiasts are a very small niche consumer group.

I agree - they all build what they can sell. F150 being tops in sales for generations says a lot about US market.

 

[Mass 4runner]

The world isn't just what it used to be before. Most consumers in the states don't even have a clue, let alone, know to even maintain their car(even by bringing their car to a dealer). The problem is, theres just no more incentive to make a great car any more, states side, because most consumers in the states are borderline retarded and/or, just think of a car as a transportation device, from A to B. They just don't give a F*** about their car or anyones car, and will knowingly dent other peoples cars. Furthermore, the US has the most retarded car standards in the world. Safety, smog, etc.. Why would they put in all the extra time to comply with the retarded safety/smog standards of the US, when they could build an even better car in another country? FFS, most american's can't even drive, or even know what the hell a manual transmission is. Other countries? Most people KNOW/LEARN how to drive with a stick. On top of that, the US driving standard is COMPLETE BS. You could literally pass the driving test high on drugs.

If you go to Japan, you'll actually have car enthusiasts and/or people who respect cars. They maintain them regularly(due to laws), but know to do so as well and dont have all these stupid laws for smog. It's unlikely you'll see dinged up car, or with a head light out, etc, in Japan or Europe. Hell, Crash rating standards are better in Europe and Asia, but it's not approved by the US government, thus, we can't import them, along with the stupid smog laws we need to comply to. I get that we can't have open downpipes, blowing smog, etc and all, but COME ON. The US gov expect most cars to have the same emissions every time they get smogged, as if they just came out of a factory.

So to answer your question, I honestly don't think it's (as a whole) Toyota's fault at all. Toyota USA is building an adequate car for the majority of Americans who can't maintain their car, regularly drive like idiots causing accidents, and think that a car is just a transportation device. For the rest of the world, Toyota is building what we get here, and also investing on the enthusiast type Toyota's because it's just worth their time and money to do so.

Examples:
Toyota Mark, kind of like our Avalon
Prius
Basically a Yaris
Their GT86? Look at them seats. They're actually bucket seats. And our trim levels from factory? Our Special edition doesn't even compete.

Subaru?
They've got a WRX S4, which beats the living crap out of our WRX. STI? STI Type S? STI S207? S208? They are able to get recarros and the car is just set up so much better from factory. Look for yourself.

Levorg? They've got a family wagon. They've got a Levorg STI too.

This could keep going on. But my point being... Toyota USA is just building an adequate car for the majority of American's who don't give a crap about their cars and knowingly bang up peoples cars and aren't enthusiasts. The rest of the world is building that same/similar adequate car for the majority of people, but are also making the vehicles for the people who are actually car enthusiasts.

Pretty sure that the notion that Japan has no smog laws and is full of car enthusiasts is nonsense.

 

[techno]

Japanese emission laws are quite strict. In fact, most cars are scrapped or sold overseas when they are more than ten years old under the theory that newer cars are more efficient and thus less polluting.

 

[theoutbackdream]

Pretty sure that the notion that Japan has no smog laws and is full of car enthusiasts is nonsense.

I never said they don't have any smog laws. But they do have less strict smog standards than the states. Not everyone is a car enthusiast there, but there are a hell of a lot more there than here.

 

[theoutbackdream]

Japanese emission laws are quite strict. In fact, most cars are scrapped or sold overseas when they are more than ten years old under the theory that newer cars are more efficient and thus less polluting.

You're right to some extent. You're not required to scrap your car after 10 years, but you will be paying more in taxes if you do decide to keep your car more than 10 years. Even then, you don't get all these ridiculous smog requirements, other than the basics. No check engine light, no leak, working o2 sensor... You can have modified cats, and the noise limit is actually reasonable. Here? You're technically not even allowed to touch the exhaust at all.

What's the point then for car enthusiasts then here in the states, if they can't even touch their exhausts without possibly getting in trouble?

 

[Senorlechero]

I never said they don't have any smog laws. But they do have less strict smog standards than the states. Not everyone is a car enthusiast there, but there are a hell of a lot more there than here.

Where are you getting this? America started car enthusiasm. Daytona 500 ring a bell?
Magnusson?
The aftermarket for 4runner? Tacoma? 86, WRX, Z etc etc etc

And you can absolutely modify your exhaust... Ca has the strictest regulations regarding car mods and companies continue to make "50 state legal" or CARB compliant.

 

[theoutbackdream]

Where are you getting this? America started car enthusiasm. Daytona 500 ring a bell?
Magnusson?
The aftermarket for 4runner? Tacoma? 86, WRX, Z etc etc etc

And you can absolutely modify your exhaust... Ca has the strictest regulations regarding car mods and companies continue to make "50 state legal" or CARB compliant.

I'm getting this as a resident/car owner in Japan.

There was at no point where I claimed Japan started the car enthusiast, did I? Aftermarket for the 4runner, tacoma? Pretty sure Australia is crazy along with Japan, but they've got different cars than us as well. 86, wrx, Z, etc.? You should look at how wide the market is over there. Most the aftermarket stuff is imported into the US. That being said, without a shadow of a doubt, America obviously beats the aftermarket scene in American made vehicles.

Yes, companies do make these products and get them approved. We can buy these parts but the act of tampering with emissions, including exhaust is illegal. Interestingly enough, the federal laws also do not prohibit driving or owning a car that has had its emissions tampered, unless they break another law/regulation, such as excessively loud, illegally modified with high flow cats etc. Go read the laws.

 

[Ausumm]

I guess I'm in a unique situation.
I didn't get into my first Toyota until the age of 51.
I spent my whole life buying whatever I could afford,
or whatever bargain I could find at the time.
When I finally got the chance to buy the vehicle I really WANTED to buy...it was a 4Runner.
(My first Toyota AND my first 4WD)
My only frustration is that I drove Chevys and Fords my whole life.
-
-

 

[Toffees]

Don’t blame Toyota for doing what it needs to do to be successful in the US market.

You got that half-right. But don't blame others when cars don't meet your demand. Go make the car you want, or work to make the legislation you want, and don't expect soccer moms to do it for you.

 

[amalik]

I think it's pretty hot seeing all these young soccer moms driving around T4R's, personally

 

[k0bra]

I agree - they all build what they can sell. F150 being tops in sales for generations says a lot about US market.

And yet Toyota lets the F150 stay generations ahead of the Tundra..

I get that the Toyota will be orders of magnitudes more reliable than the F150 but honestly, the F150 feels 10+ years ahead of the Tundra in development.

 

[Mass 4runner]

I never said they don't have any smog laws. But they do have less strict smog standards than the states. Not everyone is a car enthusiast there, but there are a hell of a lot more there than here.

Don't confuse your state with the rest of the country. Also, since car ownership is more expensive (how about $8-9 for a gallon of gas), and since there are in fact far fewer cars per capita in Japan, the opposite is likely true. More cars per person in the US, cheaper gas in the US, less restrictive rules on older cars in the US, cheaper fast car options in the US (try pricing a Corvette, etc, in Japan), etc, etc. Pretty obvious that car enthusiasts are way more common in the US than Japan.

 

[theoutbackdream]

Don't confuse your state with the rest of the country. Also, since car ownership is more expensive (how about $8-9 for a gallon of gas), and since there are in fact far fewer cars per capita in Japan, the opposite is likely true. More cars per person in the US, cheaper gas in the US, less restrictive rules on older cars in the US, cheaper fast car options in the US (try pricing a Corvette, etc, in Japan), etc, etc. Pretty obvious that car enthusiasts are way more common in the US than Japan.

I don't get why everyones so butthurt. Just voicing my opinion from what i've experienced.

I'm not confusing my state with the rest. I know that CA has strict laws, but other states have laws too, albeit less lenient. My original point is that Japan has a much more lenient smog law than the US, statewide.

I've never said car ownership was cheap. But you're right, car ownership is definitely more expensive in Japan. They have ridiculously high taxes. You pay to use the freeways there, like a toll.

There are definitely fewer cars in Japan, because public transportation is just so good there, it's pointless. And you can practically get around most major cities just walking around. Here in the US? Everything's so spread out and our public transportation is pretty bad compared to the rest of the world. Yes, even NY. That being said, the people who do own cars are either workers, people who live in the suburbs/country side/some rich families in Tokyo, or car enthusiasts. Now going back to my point. It makes more sense for Toyota USA to build these basic cars for the majority, because the majority of Americans think of cars as just an object of transportation. Yes, T4R has tons of board members, along with may other car specific groups, but we account for a VERY VERY small percentage of Americans.

Where as, in Japan, the percentage of car enthusiasts is higher, based on the fact that not as many people own cars there, so it just makes sense for Toyota Japan to invest their time/money to sell a car aimed for an enthusiast. Does that make sense?

 

[Mass 4runner]

I don't get why everyones so butthurt. Just voicing my opinion from what i've experienced.

I'm not confusing my state with the rest. I know that CA has strict laws, but other states have laws too, albeit less lenient. My original point is that Japan has a much more lenient smog law than the US, statewide.

I've never said car ownership was cheap. But you're right, car ownership is definitely more expensive in Japan. They have ridiculously high taxes. You pay to use the freeways there, like a toll.

There are definitely fewer cars in Japan, because public transportation is just so good there, it's pointless. And you can practically get around most major cities just walking around. Here in the US? Everything's so spread out and our public transportation is pretty bad compared to the rest of the world. Yes, even NY. That being said, the people who do own cars are either workers, people who live in the suburbs/country side/some rich families in Tokyo, or car enthusiasts. Now going back to my point. It makes more sense for Toyota USA to build these basic cars for the majority, because the majority of Americans think of cars as just an object of transportation. Yes, T4R has tons of board members, along with may other car specific groups, but we account for a VERY VERY small percentage of Americans.

Where as, in Japan, the percentage of car enthusiasts is higher, based on the fact that not as many people own cars there, so it just makes sense for Toyota Japan to invest their time/money to sell a car aimed for an enthusiast. Does that make sense?

That does makes more sense.

 

[Topgun15v]

I kind of agree with the OP. I am also a life long toyota/Lexus owner, and honestly have gotten sick of their antics... I feel this way after purchasing a $34k 2014 TRD OR Taco without a power drivers seat, without a gauge that tells you how many miles to empty, or even a compass? I mean where do they think people are going to drive a TRD OR.... The sport seats had little weave stitching where my dogs claws would always catch and tear, did they not think the demographics of these types of models would be dog lovers? 2 AC blower motors, 2 batteries, a non existent bed light are just the beginning. Toyota is becoming awful bullish on their reliability portion and forgetting about creature comforts and common sense items/design of their vehicles. I now have a 97 4runner and a 07 GX470 both of which I feel are built like tanks. Anything new from Toyota I wouldn't even consider touching. Oh, and I did write Toyota a letter and took a in depth survey on my feedback and all i got was a Thanks well look into it. BTW, why change the 4.0 in the taco but keep it in the 4runner?

They will never bring in the good vehicles back into the US due to our wonderful Gov. I cant blame Toyota on this. :rofl: