I feel frustrated as a lifelong Toyota fan. Anyone else?

I think it's pretty hot seeing all these young soccer moms driving around T4R's, personally ;)

Any "hotness" I see out there is wiped away by women drivers who think their "big truck" gives them permission to drive like an a**hole.

They are not driving them for the same reason we are.
I look at the face of every 4R driver I see in my area...
and 90% of them are women who "just happen" to be driving one.
 
Any "hotness" I see out there is wiped away by women drivers who think their "big truck" gives them permission to drive like an a**hole.

They are not driving them for the same reason we are.
I look at the face of every 4R driver I see in my area...
and 90% of them are women who "just happen" to be driving one.

I work in downtown Allentown and don't see many 4Rs. At least not many NEW ones. I see plenty of 3rd gens.

Where i live (1 hour south), I see plenty of soccer moms who drive new (er) GXs.
 
I work in downtown Allentown and don't see many 4Rs. At least not many NEW ones. I see plenty of 3rd gens.

Where i live (1 hour south), I see plenty of soccer moms who drive new (er) GXs.

That's funny, cause I live in Bethlehem (near Allentown) and I drive an hour south to Reading to go to work! On my commute, I see a ton of 4th Gens, and they are ALL silver, like mine...and they are ALL stock.
 
That's funny, cause I live in Bethlehem (near Allentown) and I drive an hour south to Reading to go to work! On my commute, I see a ton of 4th Gens, and they are ALL silver, like mine...and they are ALL stock.



I live right outside of Philly and see a TON of 5th Gen 4Runners and even more 4th Gens


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I work in downtown Allentown and don't see many 4Rs. At least not many NEW ones. I see plenty of 3rd gens.

Where i live (1 hour south), I see plenty of soccer moms who drive new (er) GXs.

That's because you live among the elite haha. 4Runners are for peasants in Chester County.
 
I find this thread interesting. I may well be the opposite of a life long Toyota enthusiast. I have avoided them like the plague, I have always associated Toyota with the camry and Rav4 and would probably have been called a "hater" a few of the guys I work with have Lexus ES's and I have been pretty relentless mocking their "Camry in drag" I have always associated Toyota owners as the opposite of car enthusiast. accountants that make their car buying decisions on a balance sheet, where passion has ZERO to do with the purchase decision. I will confess I have a crush on my 4Runner, I wasn't even considering it until 3 days before I bought it. Everyone who knows me is stunned, I am pretty sure the manager of the dealership was stunned too.

So, why am I telling you all this, well from an outsiders perspective, one doesn't associate Toyota owners with enthusiasts, more with the "normcore" crowd, if you haven't heard of it google it, or just think captain khaki pants. So now I own a 4Runner and have found this community and am in love with my Toyota, finding there's a lot about this one car to love. As for the rest of the offerings from the brand, I don't really think Toyota is trying for that market then again I am 36 and haven't owned anything built outside of Germany for the last 11 years. Loving the 4Runner though!
 
I find this thread interesting. I may well be the opposite of a life long Toyota enthusiast. I have avoided them like the plague, I have always associated Toyota with the camry and Rav4 and would probably have been called a "hater" a few of the guys I work with have Lexus ES's and I have been pretty relentless mocking their "Camry in drag" I have always associated Toyota owners as the opposite of car enthusiast. accountants that make their car buying decisions on a balance sheet, where passion has ZERO to do with the purchase decision. I will confess I have a crush on my 4Runner, I wasn't even considering it until 3 days before I bought it. Everyone who knows me is stunned, I am pretty sure the manager of the dealership was stunned too.

So, why am I telling you all this, well from an outsiders perspective, one doesn't associate Toyota owners with enthusiasts, more with the "normcore" crowd, if you haven't heard of it google it, or just think captain khaki pants. So now I own a 4Runner and have found this community and am in love with my Toyota, finding there's a lot about this one car to love. As for the rest of the offerings from the brand, I don't really think Toyota is trying for that market then again I am 36 and haven't owned anything built outside of Germany for the last 11 years. Loving the 4Runner though!

Agreed. I always associated Toyota with the Camry and the Prius for the most part. I never knew there was such a thing as a "Toyota Enthusiast" until I bought my 4runner. I always thought of them as the boring old guy car company that was ruining the industry with neutered gas sippers.
 
To me, Toyota is synonymous with "staid":

"Synonyms: sedate, respectable, quiet, serious, serious-minded, steady, conventional, traditional, unadventurous, unenterprising, set in one's ways, sober, proper, decorous, formal, stuffy, stiff, priggish"

Not a derogatory description really, especially when you add "reliable".

What makes me smile are the current Camry commercials with an emphasis on performance. Even to adding a little exhaust sound to the lady carving up the winding mountain highway. Really Toyota? Zoom-zoom? GLWT.

Maybe an Avalon drag racing an Acura next?
 
It's a bit too much to go into tremendous depth right now, but a lot of your frustrations are related to management changes and a company that has been historically very, very slow to anticipate and react to market shifts - in a market that has been more unpredictable it's ever been at any point in history.

After Akio Toyoda took over as chairman, he completely reshuffled the company, gave Lexus more autonomy, reduced the number of people needed to make strategic decisions, shut down Scion, committed to improving quality, streamlined operations by region instead of consolidating power in Japan, and mandated that all Toyota products needed to be more emotional and engaging. Think about the Camrys and Avalons we had in the 90s and early 2000s compared to what we have right now.

Prior to Akio's leadership, there was little emphasis on "sports," enthusiast vehicles, powertrain advancement/leadership and quality dipped significantly. There were some products like Supra and LS 400 that were positive developments, but overall, Toyotas were reliable, but they were not often great to look at - with trucks being an exception. This is the period where Toyota really rested on their laurels and coasted on the reputation they'd been building for decades.

Akio is the one who called for the new TNGA modular architecture and an entire new family of engines - Dynamic Force - because he saw an opportunity to streamline manufacturing operations, cut costs and increase speed to market (historically a Toyota weak spot). Keep in mind that many of these decisions were made around 2009-2010 when gas prices were $4 per gallon, nobody wanted SUVs, dealers couldn't even keep a Prius on the lot and the world still recovering from the worst financial crisis in many decades. Toyota's goal was to reinvent the core of their portfolio - Camry, Rav4, Corolla, Prius and similarly sized global models - to be better than they'd ever been before. It seemed at this time that sports cars, trucks and SUVs would never bounce back because consumers didn't want the liability of paying $4/gallon for gas on something that got 14MPG. It was then that products like Tacoma, Tundra, Sequoia, 4Runner and Land Cruiser were terminated, put on hold or temporarily delayed, and it's hard to deny the business case when you think about how difficult that period was for consumers, OEMs and dealers.

Historically, Lexus vehicles were very plush and luxurious and completely uninspiring to drive. Akio gave rise to the LFA and LC 500, pushed the brand to develop F Sport and F racing, and had his hand personally in the new LS 500. Right now, things at Lexus are looking better than they ever have. Within the next 18 months, we will have 625hp TT V8 LS F and LC F, and a slew of new products under those.

Right now, Toyota has their foot in their mouth because they delayed all of their BOF redesigns and then waited too long to pick up the torch and recommit. Tacoma is really only a heavy refresh. Tundra gets mild updates over 11 years, Sequoia just for it's first update of any kind in a decade, the Land Cruiser has been nipped and tucked twice, and the 4Runner seems to be selling so well that Toyota is content to let it soldier on as-is. All of these moves wreak of indecision and lack of commitment. Coming out of the financial crisis and thinking about a new world that is leaner and faster to react, Toyota made the conscious effort to de-prioritize BOF and it will be 2020 or so before we have next-gen BOF products that we should have had a decade prior at that point. Similarly, the market for sports cars has dropped significantly so to reduce their investment and risk, Toyota has partnered with BMW and Subaru to develop the Supra and 86... this is the new way of doing things. New Camry is a great car and the new Avalon and Rav4 will be here within 12 months. More horsepower, more performance, more tech across the board.

With everything above, also consider market trends over the last decade:
- Stricter CAFE laws
- Stricter safety standards and an OEM "arms race" over safety tech like Toyota Safety Sense
- Rapid abandonment of SUVs, trucks and sports cars in 2008-2010, then unbelievable resurgence in 2014+, now outpacing passenger cars
- Rise of hybrid technology, only for popularity to wane as gas prices fall
- Battery and plug-in hybrid tech starts as a disruptive technology and then becomes mainstream
- Consumer expectations around infotainment and connected cars
- Toyota moving from Torrance to Dallas which cost them 70% of their North American corporate workforce.

...and all of this happened at a time when leadership was changing, the world was coming out of crisis and the tech boom came to automobiles and massively shifted consumer expectations.

I am not making excuses because I understand and relate to your frustration, but we have to step back and look at the full picture to understand how and why things are like they are. I believe that within the next 5 years, Toyota will have all of their products on TNGA architectures (FWD, RWD, BOF, unibody), everything will have new ICE engines, new hybrid options, advanced infotainment, more safety tech and we know that next gen 4Runner, Tundra, Sequoia and Land Cruiser are all in development. Once Toyota has caught up, I think we will begin to see even more really great products. In the meantime, if you are annoyed that we don't have enough exciting product, Akio is the man you want at the helm - he is the most enthusiast-minded leader the company has ever had. However, he also realizes there were foundational issues that needed to be fixed on a global scale before getting to "nice to have" products and initiatives.
 
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It's a bit too much to go into tremendous depth right now, but a lot of your frustrations are related to management changes and a company that has been historically very, very slow to anticipate and react to market shifts - in a market that has been more unpredictable it's ever been at any point in history.

After Akio Toyoda took over as chairman, he completely reshuffled the company, gave Lexus more autonomy, reduced the number of people needed to make strategic decisions, shut down Scion, committed to improving quality, streamlined operations by region instead of consolidating power in Japan, and mandated that all Toyota products needed to be more emotional and engaging. Think about the Camrys and Avalons we had in the 90s and early 2000s compared to what we have right now.

Prior to Akio's leadership, there was little emphasis on "sports," enthusiast vehicles, powertrain advancement/leadership and quality dipped significantly. There were some products like Supra and LS 400 that were positive developments, but overall, Toyotas were reliable, but they were not often great to look at - with trucks being an exception. This is the period where Toyota really rested on their laurels and coasted on the reputation they'd been building for decades.

Akio is the one who called for the new TNGA modular architecture and an entire new family of engines - Dynamic Force - because he saw an opportunity to streamline manufacturing operations, cut costs and increase speed to market (historically a Toyota weak spot). Keep in mind that many of these decisions were made around 2009-2010 when gas prices were $4 per gallon, nobody wanted SUVs, dealers couldn't even keep a Prius on the lot and the world still recovering from the worst financial crisis in many decades. Toyota's goal was to reinvent the core of their portfolio - Camry, Rav4, Corolla, Prius and similarly sized global models - to be better than they'd ever been before. It seemed at this time that sports cars, trucks and SUVs would never bounce back because consumers didn't want the liability of paying $4/gallon for gas on something that got 14MPG. It was then that products like Tacoma, Tundra, Sequoia, 4Runner and Land Cruiser were terminated, put on hold or temporarily delayed, and it's hard to deny the business case when you think about how difficult that period was for consumers, OEMs and dealers.

Historically, Lexus vehicles were very plush and luxurious and completely uninspiring to drive. Akio gave rise to the LFA and LC 500, pushed the brand to develop F Sport and F racing, and had his hand personally in the new LS 500. Right now, things at Lexus are looking better than they ever have. Within the next 18 months, we will have 625hp TT V8 LS F and LC F, and a slew of new products under those.

Right now, Toyota has their foot in their mouth because they delayed all of their BOF redesigns and then waited too long to pick up the torch and recommit. Tacoma is really only a heavy refresh. Tundra gets mild updates over 11 years, Sequoia just for it's first update of any kind in a decade, the Land Cruiser has been nipped and tucked twice, and the 4Runner seems to be selling so well that Toyota is content to let it soldier on as-is. All of these moves wreak of indecision and lack of commitment. Coming out of the financial crisis and thinking about a new world that is leaner and faster to react, Toyota made the conscious effort to de-prioritize BOF and it will be 2020 or so before we have next-gen BOF products that we should have had a decade prior at that point. Similarly, the market for sports cars has dropped significantly so to reduce their investment and risk, Toyota has partnered with BMW and Subaru to develop the Supra and 86... this is the new way of doing things. New Camry is a great car and the new Avalon and Rav4 will be here within 12 months. More horsepower, more performance, more tech across the board.

With everything above, also consider market trends over the last decade:
- Stricter CAFE laws
- Stricter safety standards and an OEM "arms race" over safety tech like Toyota Safety Sense
- Rapid abandonment of SUVs, trucks and sports cars in 2008-2010, then unbelievable resurgence in 2014+, now outpacing passenger cars
- Rise of hybrid technology, only for popularity to wane as gas prices fall
- Battery and plug-in hybrid tech starts as a disruptive technology and then becomes mainstream
- Consumer expectations around infotainment and connected cars
- Toyota moving from Torrance to Dallas which cost them 70% of their North American corporate workforce.

...and all of this happened at a time when leadership was changing, the world was coming out of crisis and the tech boom came to automobiles and massively shifted consumer expectations.

I am not making excuses because I understand and relate to your frustration, but we have to step back and look at the full picture to understand how and why things are like they are. I believe that within the next 5 years, Toyota will have all of their products on TNGA architectures (FWD, RWD, BOF, unibody), everything will have new ICE engines, new hybrid options, advanced infotainment, more safety tech and we know that next gen 4Runner, Tundra, Sequoia and Land Cruiser are all in development. Once Toyota has caught up, I think we will begin to see even more really great products. In the meantime, if you are annoyed that we don't have enough exciting product, Akio is the man you want at the helm - he is the most enthusiast-minded leader the company has ever had. However, he also realizes there were foundational issues that needed to be fixed on a global scale before getting to "nice to have" products and initiatives.

I can't tell if you're a journalist or Akio Toyoda himself. In any case, great, informative post so thanks for typing that all out.
 
It's a bit too much to go into tremendous depth right now, but a lot of your frustrations are related to management changes and a company that has been historically very, very slow to anticipate and react to market shifts - in a market that has been more unpredictable it's ever been at any point in history.

After Akio Toyoda took over as chairman, he completely reshuffled the company, gave Lexus more autonomy, reduced the number of people needed to make strategic decisions, shut down Scion, committed to improving quality, streamlined operations by region instead of consolidating power in Japan, and mandated that all Toyota products needed to be more emotional and engaging. Think about the Camrys and Avalons we had in the 90s and early 2000s compared to what we have right now.

Prior to Akio's leadership, there was little emphasis on "sports," enthusiast vehicles, powertrain advancement/leadership and quality dipped significantly. There were some products like Supra and LS 400 that were positive developments, but overall, Toyotas were reliable, but they were not often great to look at - with trucks being an exception. This is the period where Toyota really rested on their laurels and coasted on the reputation they'd been building for decades.

Akio is the one who called for the new TNGA modular architecture and an entire new family of engines - Dynamic Force - because he saw an opportunity to streamline manufacturing operations, cut costs and increase speed to market (historically a Toyota weak spot). Keep in mind that many of these decisions were made around 2009-2010 when gas prices were $4 per gallon, nobody wanted SUVs, dealers couldn't even keep a Prius on the lot and the world still recovering from the worst financial crisis in many decades. Toyota's goal was to reinvent the core of their portfolio - Camry, Rav4, Corolla, Prius and similarly sized global models - to be better than they'd ever been before. It seemed at this time that sports cars, trucks and SUVs would never bounce back because consumers didn't want the liability of paying $4/gallon for gas on something that got 14MPG. It was then that products like Tacoma, Tundra, Sequoia, 4Runner and Land Cruiser were terminated, put on hold or temporarily delayed, and it's hard to deny the business case when you think about how difficult that period was for consumers, OEMs and dealers.

Historically, Lexus vehicles were very plush and luxurious and completely uninspiring to drive. Akio gave rise to the LFA and LC 500, pushed the brand to develop F Sport and F racing, and had his hand personally in the new LS 500. Right now, things at Lexus are looking better than they ever have. Within the next 18 months, we will have 625hp TT V8 LS F and LC F, and a slew of new products under those.

Right now, Toyota has their foot in their mouth because they delayed all of their BOF redesigns and then waited too long to pick up the torch and recommit. Tacoma is really only a heavy refresh. Tundra gets mild updates over 11 years, Sequoia just for it's first update of any kind in a decade, the Land Cruiser has been nipped and tucked twice, and the 4Runner seems to be selling so well that Toyota is content to let it soldier on as-is. All of these moves wreak of indecision and lack of commitment. Coming out of the financial crisis and thinking about a new world that is leaner and faster to react, Toyota made the conscious effort to de-prioritize BOF and it will be 2020 or so before we have next-gen BOF products that we should have had a decade prior at that point. Similarly, the market for sports cars has dropped significantly so to reduce their investment and risk, Toyota has partnered with BMW and Subaru to develop the Supra and 86... this is the new way of doing things. New Camry is a great car and the new Avalon and Rav4 will be here within 12 months. More horsepower, more performance, more tech across the board.

With everything above, also consider market trends over the last decade:
- Stricter CAFE laws
- Stricter safety standards and an OEM "arms race" over safety tech like Toyota Safety Sense
- Rapid abandonment of SUVs, trucks and sports cars in 2008-2010, then unbelievable resurgence in 2014+, now outpacing passenger cars
- Rise of hybrid technology, only for popularity to wane as gas prices fall
- Battery and plug-in hybrid tech starts as a disruptive technology and then becomes mainstream
- Consumer expectations around infotainment and connected cars
- Toyota moving from Torrance to Dallas which cost them 70% of their North American corporate workforce.

...and all of this happened at a time when leadership was changing, the world was coming out of crisis and the tech boom came to automobiles and massively shifted consumer expectations.

I am not making excuses because I understand and relate to your frustration, but we have to step back and look at the full picture to understand how and why things are like they are. I believe that within the next 5 years, Toyota will have all of their products on TNGA architectures (FWD, RWD, BOF, unibody), everything will have new ICE engines, new hybrid options, advanced infotainment, more safety tech and we know that next gen 4Runner, Tundra, Sequoia and Land Cruiser are all in development. Once Toyota has caught up, I think we will begin to see even more really great products. In the meantime, if you are annoyed that we don't have enough exciting product, Akio is the man you want at the helm - he is the most enthusiast-minded leader the company has ever had. However, he also realizes there were foundational issues that needed to be fixed on a global scale before getting to "nice to have" products and initiatives.

Well said, but lol as us as consumers with opinions on the long-term viability of a vehicle dependent on something like a small swing in the price of gas. We're stupid sheep, and that's why most car companies don't send us good products.
 
Screw the dickslurping bean counters who are stripping manual transmissions from the lineup. Its outrageous that the Lexus F cars come with autos. I dont give a shit that modern autos may be faster in a straight line than manuals, I want a driver's car.
 
Any "hotness" I see out there is wiped away by women drivers who think their "big truck" gives them permission to drive like an a**hole.

They are not driving them for the same reason we are.
I look at the face of every 4R driver I see in my area...
and 90% of them are women who "just happen" to be driving one.

Hey now... I drive one because I WANT to and I love my 4runner. I looked for a year to find the perfect one (twice); if I had a dollar for every time someone said "Why are you so picky?" lol and I don't ever want to lose it. I guess I am the 10% :tongue1:
 
I find this thread interesting.

+1

I have always associated Toyota owners as the opposite of car enthusiast. accountants that make their car buying decisions on a balance sheet, where passion has ZERO to do with the purchase decision.

HEY! As a licensed CPA... I take offence to that... OK, not really, it's pretty true and a funny stereotype. You should see the spreadsheets I have. :rofl:
 
It's a bit too much to go into tremendous depth right now, ...

Great post. Interesting info.

Too bad more ideas like this arent coming ... I would love my Sienna a hell of a lot more if it had this trim package. :rofl:

01-toyota-ultimate-utility-vehicle-sema-2015.jpg
 
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Don't forget that the Tundra/Tacoma truck line is more profitable than the entire F series is. This year. And not on a per car basis. Net profit is higher. Each tundra/tacoma is worth more than 3 F series trucks in profit margin. And the F series is the highest profitability of any of the big 3. In short - Tundra/Tacoma are dinosaurs and still by far the most profitable truck lines to ever be sold in the USA. Even this year with very old aging platforms, they'll still outperform the best selling truck in the one thing Toyota really cares about: Profit.
 

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