I used ethanol in Brazil

[chilisquid]

I have my 2004 4runner in Brazil, and tried two tanks of ethanol, not realizing that it is a different mix here. I have the 4.7 L 2UZ-FE V8 engine.

I had previously used ethanol in Thailand (10 percent ethanol) and had no problems.

Here in Brazil, it is E25. Ran through two tanks of the stuff over the weekend. At the start of my second tank-full, I got a check-engine-light. Mileage was about 19MPG.

Today, with about 1/4 tank left, I had difficulty starting. Took several tries, but once it was warmed up, it ran OK.

I realize now that I shouldn't be using E25 in my vehicle and I plan to fill it with real gasoline to dilute the remaining ethanol. I will check the readout with my OBD reader and report back later what I find.

Any ideas what the CEL might be ? Any speculation on whether I have done any permanent damage with the two tank-fulls of E25 ?

 

[Sungod]

I would use it if I could get 19mpg!

 

[crackiswack]

Two tanks is probably fine, the ethanol eats away at rubber seals which occurs over an extended time.

 

[mrrab]

Two tanks is probably fine, the ethanol eats away at rubber seals which occurs over an extended time.

Is this true for 10% ethanol?

 

[badattitude]

CEL might be a damaged o2 sensor, just guessing.

 

[chilisquid]

OK, so the OBD readout said P0171 and P0174, both of which correspond to "fuel mixture too lean"

So hopefully when I put real gasoline in, these will go away.

this 4runner only has 32k miles on it. It was stored for a year, in 2006 and for another year in 2010.

 

[crackiswack]

Is this true for 10% ethanol?

On older cars, unfortunetely yes. Newer cars are using rubber seals that are more resistant, some areas are even trying to bump up the ethanol content to 15%

 

[FireTruckGuy]

Too lean is because it takes more fuel running ethanol to get the same bang. The hard start comes from the ethanol having a higher octane rating which results into hard starts.

 

[TRDCal]

On older cars, unfortunetely yes. Newer cars are using rubber seals that are more resistant, some areas are even trying to bump up the ethanol content to 15%

What do you consider "older" cars?? Because my mother put 625,000kms on her 96 Corolla and all she ran ethanol from new till 2009 when the motor started knocking. I don't think it's as bad on cars as people think.

 

[crackiswack]

What do you consider "older" cars?? Because my mother put 625,000kms on her 96 Corolla and all she ran ethanol from new till 2009 when the motor started knocking. I don't think it's as bad on cars as people think.

Well it depends on the specific cars and the components, ethanol reacts with certain rubbers, magnesium, aluminum and a few other components. Some motors are more susceptible because manufacturers did not build in ethanol resistance. It is particulcar troublesome in cars ~20 years old and older before the widespread implementation of neoprene type rubber for seals etc. It is a well documented issue in cars even running on E10. Just because 1 car didn't have that issue doesn't mean it isn't a problem, it is basic chemistry.

 

[TRDCal]

Well it depends on the specific cars and the components, ethanol reacts with certain rubbers, magnesium, aluminum and a few other components. Some motors are more susceptible because manufacturers did not build in ethanol resistance. It is particulcar troublesome in cars ~20 years old and older before the widespread implementation of neoprene type rubber for seals etc. It is a well documented issue in cars even running on E10. Just because 1 car didn't have that issue doesn't mean it isn't a problem, it is basic chemistry.

Fair enough, science always prevails. I'm just saying don't believe everything your read on the internet or hear on the news because I'm sure there's some bias information about ethanol out there.

 

[FireTruckGuy]

The other problem still is it takes way more ethanol to get the same amount of power.

 

[DC runner]

Yea.


I am a strong supporter of moving toward cleaner technologies. I LOVE innovation! Hell, imagine if everyone still used dirty coal furnaces to heat homes! Gross...

Anyway. Ethanol is a joke. I am a pro-market forces, moderate republican who believes our future lies in clean technologies and I am excited at the future and what the business entrepreneurs are giving us.

Ethanol represents the WORST in government subsided bull****.
Not only has it created an artificial market which has destroyed a normal balance in corn production, but is has shifted valuable resources toward actually promising technologies.

Ethanol inflates corn prices, rising the cost of food and is a ****ty development. I hate it and it disgusts me that the corn lobby is so powerful to continue getting money from Uncle Sam..

that money from uncle sam is, by the way, the only thing that makes ethanol even considered. Again... artificial bull****.


Anyway......

THe future is so exciting. I drove my first all electric car last year. HOLY COW. FYI, an electric motor has instant access to its power band.. INSTANT. Electric motors are more reliable and powerful. That is why the train industry moved to electric motors 40 years ago. Those huge diesel electric trains are huge electric generators that pumps electric power to huge electric motors at the wheels.... and they move.

I know it is different.. but as the technology progresses (remember, it took about 50 years for the combustion engine to become "reliable") I am excited for what it holds... give it a few more generation cycles and we will be ready to switch.


Plus... it is much easier to make the electric grid clean once we have electric cars, then trying to continue making gas clean. Gas cars can only get "so" clean...

Nuc Power, fyi, is the current future in clean energy production. If the hippies and idiots in D.C. would get off their asses, there are so many advances in NUC Power. We haven't built a plant in 30 years and since then the tech has come SO FAR. We can build plants around much safer materials now...

Anyway.

 

[crackiswack]

Yea.


I am a strong supporter of moving toward cleaner technologies. I LOVE innovation! Hell, imagine if everyone still used dirty coal furnaces to heat homes! Gross...

Anyway. Ethanol is a joke. I am a pro-market forces, moderate republican who believes our future lies in clean technologies and I am excited at the future and what the business entrepreneurs are giving us.

Ethanol represents the WORST in government subsided bull****.
Not only has it created an artificial market which has destroyed a normal balance in corn production, but is has shifted valuable resources toward actually promising technologies.

Ethanol inflates corn prices, rising the cost of food and is a ****ty development. I hate it and it disgusts me that the corn lobby is so powerful to continue getting money from Uncle Sam..

that money from uncle sam is, by the way, the only thing that makes ethanol even considered. Again... artificial bull****.


Anyway......

THe future is so exciting. I drove my first all electric car last year. HOLY COW. FYI, an electric motor has instant access to its power band.. INSTANT. Electric motors are more reliable and powerful. That is why the train industry moved to electric motors 40 years ago. Those huge diesel electric trains are huge electric generators that pumps electric power to huge electric motors at the wheels.... and they move.

I know it is different.. but as the technology progresses (remember, it took about 50 years for the combustion engine to become "reliable") I am excited for what it holds... give it a few more generation cycles and we will be ready to switch.


Plus... it is much easier to make the electric grid clean once we have electric cars, then trying to continue making gas clean. Gas cars can only get "so" clean...

Nuc Power, fyi, is the current future in clean energy production. If the hippies and idiots in D.C. would get off their asses, there are so many advances in NUC Power. We haven't built a plant in 30 years and since then the tech has come SO FAR. We can build plants around much safer materials now...

Anyway.

You realize the OP was using ethanol in brazil where ethanol is produced from sugar cane right?

 

[DC runner]

Psst. Beyond the point.

Ethanol as a whole, whether used from sugar cane or corn, is an absurd product.

 

[crackiswack]

Psst. Beyond the point.

Ethanol as a whole, whether used from sugar cane or corn, is an absurd product.

Enlighten us why ethanol based fuel in brazil is an absurd product

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Fair enough, science always prevails. I'm just saying don't believe everything your read on the internet or hear on the news because I'm sure there's some bias information about ethanol out there.

Its not a rumor mill thing, this is something I have seen and talked with many technicians about regularly. While 10% Ethanol may or may not eat away seals. A lot of engines are not "flex fuel," so their seals, materials, and programming are ill equipped for dealing with Ethanol based fuels. Not to mention the lack of regulation and formula regularity. I have to agree with DC Runner, I personally see Ethanol as an excuse to say, "see we're trying green stuff" it is more a hinderence to moving to better technology than it is helping.

 

[DC runner]

Whenever anyone writes "enlighten me", what they are really saying is I don't actually think anything you say has worth.

Fine.

But, and mind you, this is my job (legislative aide, job requires me to research and travel), this is how it works.

Because of the artificially subsidized price of ethanol, Brazil farmers make more money clear cutting, growing sugar, and selling that sugar to make ethanol than they do doing more ecologically and economically smart choices. Same as it is here with corn..

So. Mind you, you didn't actually have a question in mind.. you just wanted to be a bit sarcastic. Fine. The entire relationship surrounding ethanol is tainted and it has corrupted it at every level. You ever hear about fair trade? Maybe some hippie magazine? Well the entire point of "fair trade" is too stop having artificial backing that artificially deflates the cost of a good in one region or altogether, that in turn disrupts an entire market.

That is, in a nutshell, ethanol. It is ****. Pure ****.


As my post pointed to.. I am not some Ted Nugget, kill all the baby seals, republican. I want clean innovation and a technological progression to get us off of dirty fuel.

Ethanol isn't it. All it has done is corrupted the food chain, caused a spike in global food costs and wasted valuable resources..

 

[crackiswack]

Whenever anyone writes "enlighten me", what they are really saying is I don't actually think anything you say has worth.

Fine.

But, and mind you, this is my job (legislative aide, job requires me to research and travel), this is how it works.

Because of the artificially subsidized price of ethanol, Brazil farmers make more money clear cutting, growing sugar, and selling that sugar to make ethanol than they do doing more ecologically and economically smart choices. Same as it is here with corn..

So. Mind you, you didn't actually have a question in mind.. you just wanted to be a bit sarcastic. Fine. The entire relationship surrounding ethanol is tainted and it has corrupted it at every level. You ever hear about fair trade? Maybe some hippie magazine? Well the entire point of "fair trade" is too stop having artificial backing that artificially deflates the cost of a good in one region or altogether, that in turn disrupts an entire market.

That is, in a nutshell, ethanol. It is ****. Pure ****.


As my post pointed to.. I am not some Ted Nugget, kill all the baby seals, republican. I want clean innovation and a technological progression to get us off of dirty fuel.

Ethanol isn't it. All it has done is corrupted the food chain, caused a spike in global food costs and wasted valuable resources..

Which subsidies in brazil do you speak of that are currently in place?

 

[KidVermicious]

Enlighten us why ethanol based fuel in brazil is an absurd product

Because it's ethanol, and because Brazil's sugarcane farming industry is using horribly unsustainable methods to feed their need. There is nothing ecologically sound about Brazil and ethanol.