I used ethanol in Brazil

[DC runner]

Yep.. That summed it up.

If you do any research into ethanol, which it sounds like you have 0 knowledge on it, you would find the entire relationship around ethanol is nasty and artificial.

I want clean, but ethanol is not it.... the more we waste on it the less time and effort we are placing toward an actual alternative.

 

[crackiswack]

Because it's ethanol, and because Brazil's sugarcane farming industry is using horribly unsustainable methods to feed their need. There is nothing ecologically sound about Brazil and ethanol.

Oil isn't sustainable either, and how do you propose they feed their need without ethanol supplementation?

 

[crackiswack]

Yep.. That summed it up.

If you do any research into ethanol, which it sounds like you have 0 knowledge on it, you would find the entire relationship around ethanol is nasty and artificial.

I want clean, but ethanol is not it.... the more we waste on it the less time and effort we are placing toward an actual alternative.

I've done enough research on it to know it isn't clearly black and white. But I didn't come in here making incoherent rants, so if you are going to make a claim, back it up with proof, I don't think that is too much to ask.

 

[DC runner]

I get it. Your a "anything other than oil is better than oil"...

Only. It isn't. And some things are black and white. Ethanol is the great bogus myth.

Why? 2 reasons.
1. We can never run cars solely on ethanol. Why? It would take well over 100% of ALL corn/sugar production to supply the amount needed.
What does this mean, this means it is a ****ing boondaggle. We will ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS, require oil to run ethanol.

This means that continuing the yell about that ethanol is a solution does exactly what I have been harping on: It allows the sad status qou to limp on. We subsidize ethanol so that growers and fuel makers have a profit incentive to keep doing it.

2. Ethanol is lateral thinking. It isn't new and it isn't revolutionary. It is a combustible fuel burned to make power. It is an old technology. It is "polishing a ****". It isn't radical or new clean innovation. It MAY be cleaner, but I disagree, since you have to BURN MORE of it to get anywhere.

The future is in radically different places. Ethanol is a re**** attempt. The future is clean burning Hydrogen or 0 emission electric, in which you are able to clean the electric grid. It is rolling out newer and cleaner NUC plants. Solar Stations. It is the future.

Ethanol is old and it is horrid.



Also. I want to point out that for every 1 liner you throw at me in this conversation I have continuously posted several paragraph long refutations in which I have clearly articulated arguments. If this were a debate (I paid for college on a debate scholarship) I would have solidly whooped your ass.


My point is... why do you have such a "strong" belief on something you appear to have little understanding on? Are you pro-ethanol because that is what TV tells you?

The clean future requires radical thinking and ethanol represents the worst. It is government subsidization that never made it.

 

[KidVermicious]

Oil isn't sustainable either, and how do you propose they feed their need without ethanol supplementation?

Oil is definitely not sustainable, no argument from me. But I don't think ethanol is the answer, especially not the way Brazil does it.

I don't pretend to be an expert, but I think electricity is the answer for our commuter fleet.

 

[badattitude]

I'm thinking Compressed Natural Gas is awesome. The price is very low. It is fairly easy to convert a a gasoline vehicle to CNG. The same vehicle can be switched back to gasoline via a switch on the fly. Most of us have Natrual Gas Piped right to house already. The main cons are tanks to hold the Natural Gas in the car are expensive and milage per gallon is lower. Also there are hardly any filling stations. I do not know how much it would cost to install a home filling hook-up. Has anyone converted their 4R to CNG?

CNG Natural Gas Conversion for $1000 - YouTube

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Setting the geopolitical and financial issues associated with Ethanol aside, there are serious issues with Ethanol from a technical standpoint.

Ethanol dissolves certian plastics and gums, many vehicles are NOT equipped to handle ethanol and their gaskets, o-rings, and sealing components can deteriorate as a result. Also the pumps that feed the Ethanol to your vehicle are subject to this; and if you are thinking that every gas station updates their equipment just because the state tells them to... I want to live in your world.

Ethanol lowers over all gas mileage, many vehicles are, once again NOT equipped to handle Ethanol enriched fuels. While up to 10% Ethanol is normal for most gasoline in the US, higher concentrations will affect your vehicle's performance. The fuel maps, sensors, and programming is designed for gasoline with up to 10% Ethanol, any higher and it will often reduce performance and increase fuel consumption as a result.\

Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning, like brake fluid it absorbs water very easily, this can easily reduce the quality of large quanities of fuel in stations and your gas tank. Increased water content can also ruin the engine and related components, (anyone remember the ARCO fiasco a decade ago?)

Also, while Ethanol enriched fuels are not as bad as biodiesel or bio fuels in this regard, they still lack proper regulation. What I mean by regulation is that each batch can be very different from each other and thus you can easily get a "bad batch" of fuel that could ruin your car.

For those of you lucky enough to run Ethanol enriched fuels in non-E85 vehicles with no ill-effects. Good for you! I really mean that, because I got a buddy who does Drivability work for many shops and he sees a LOT of horror stories caused by owners who used Ethanol Enriched Fuels.

I hope that this has been informative. :thumb3:

 

[crackiswack]

I get it. Your a "anything other than oil is better than oil"...

Only. It isn't. And some things are black and white. Ethanol is the great bogus myth.

Why? 2 reasons.
1. We can never run cars solely on ethanol. Why? It would take well over 100% of ALL corn/sugar production to supply the amount needed.
What does this mean, this means it is a ****ing boondaggle. We will ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS, require oil to run ethanol.

This means that continuing the yell about that ethanol is a solution does exactly what I have been harping on: It allows the sad status qou to limp on. We subsidize ethanol so that growers and fuel makers have a profit incentive to keep doing it.

2. Ethanol is lateral thinking. It isn't new and it isn't revolutionary. It is a combustible fuel burned to make power. It is an old technology. It is "polishing a ****". It isn't radical or new clean innovation. It MAY be cleaner, but I disagree, since you have to BURN MORE of it to get anywhere.

The future is in radically different places. Ethanol is a re**** attempt. The future is clean burning Hydrogen or 0 emission electric, in which you are able to clean the electric grid. It is rolling out newer and cleaner NUC plants. Solar Stations. It is the future.

Ethanol is old and it is horrid.



Also. I want to point out that for every 1 liner you throw at me in this conversation I have continuously posted several paragraph long refutations in which I have clearly articulated arguments. If this were a debate (I paid for college on a debate scholarship) I would have solidly whooped your ass.


My point is... why do you have such a "strong" belief on something you appear to have little understanding on? Are you pro-ethanol because that is what TV tells you?

The clean future requires radical thinking and ethanol represents the worst. It is government subsidization that never made it.

You seem to be getting your arguments muddled here. The use of corn for ethanol in the US is significantly different than the sugar cane used in brazil. The brazilian government hasn't subsidized ethanol since ~97. The US no longer has corn ethanol subsidies. No one is arguing that ethanol is THE replacement for fossil fuels. Not once did I ever make that statement. I also did not ever mention ethanol use in the US, where our climate and land isn't optimal for such a system. But you claim that in brazil it doesn't work, well I want to see your evidence. If you are such a great debater you would know that you have to back up your arguments with evidence. I haven't seen it. You sure whooped me though.

 

[crackiswack]

Oil is definitely not sustainable, no argument from me. But I don't think ethanol is the answer, especially not the way Brazil does it.

I don't pretend to be an expert, but I think electricity is the answer for our commuter fleet.

Ethanol isn't the answer long term, but it is the only answer to supply Brazil's needs at their current usage rate. If sugar cane based ethanol production stopped in brazil the country would grind to a halt.

 

[FJCRUZR]

I have my 2004 4runner in Brazil, and tried two tanks of ethanol, not realizing that it is a different mix here. I have the 4.7 L 2UZ-FE V8 engine.

I had previously used ethanol in Thailand (10 percent ethanol) and had no problems.

Here in Brazil, it is E25. Ran through two tanks of the stuff over the weekend. At the start of my second tank-full, I got a check-engine-light. Mileage was about 19MPG.

Today, with about 1/4 tank left, I had difficulty starting. Took several tries, but once it was warmed up, it ran OK.

I realize now that I shouldn't be using E25 in my vehicle and I plan to fill it with real gasoline to dilute the remaining ethanol. I will check the readout with my OBD reader and report back later what I find.

Any ideas what the CEL might be ? Any speculation on whether I have done any permanent damage with the two tank-fulls of E25 ?

Where are you in Brazil? I might come visit you...lol
I'll be there for a month leaving in a month :hello: