IFS vs. Axle

[Thai]

Hey all,

Here is an article comparing independent front suspension to a live axle...interesting reading:

http://www.4x4africa.com/article.php?sid=11

Thanks.

 

[Phalanx]

All-Pro Off Road of Hemet, CA has a solid axle conversion for 1986-1994 4runners. Its not exaclty a bolt on (Some grinding and welding required) but the kit seems pretty straight forward since the 1st gen and 2nd gen frames are basically the same. It seems the hardest part is finding a qualilty 1st gen front axle or dropping more than a few grand for the Dana 60 kit. Now if only i had the time and money to do it.....

All-Pro Off Road Solid Axle Conversion

 

[bulldog-yota]

Axle seems to be the way to go for off road performance, but not for on road performance and handling.

Just to correct the author of the article on Land ROver/Range ROver . The new Range Rover has IFS and IRS and actually offers more articulation than with axles on the previous one, not all engineers are lazy and stop at just IFS or IRS they actually can do some homework. The LR3 which replaces the Discovery will also have IFS and IRS, the Freelander is also IRS and IFS. SO soon a major off road brand will no longer have axles, lets you think.

One day other manufacturers will follow. It is a cost thing to make independant suspension work well off road, they do a great job on road but is not so good off road unless you build a few extra (read $$$) goodies in to make it work really well off road.

 

[Thai]

Range Rover has independent suspension all around. However, to make it work off-road, LR had to use some electronic trickery...aka, cross-linking shocks to improve articulation. You must also have LONG control arms for the suspension.

Don't forget that solid axles provide constant ground clearance. This has always been a weakness of independent suspension...the ground clearance varies.

 

[86runner-sas]

i would go to www.marlincrawler.com before u think of doing a sas. or buying anything offroad related. if u were to do an sas, there not that hard and u could build the components yourself and save a bunch.

 

[Good Times]

I'd say sas it if you plan to go 37" or bigger. If you stay at 33 or 35's then IFS is the way to go.

 

[Vortec4800]

The Range Rover has a psuedo solid axle while off-roading by linking shocks and using the air suspension to push the wheels in the correct direction. That thing is a beast off road, I love going with my dad in his.

However in some ways the 4Runner is more fun because it doesn't do everything for you. Sometimes you can't even tell you're doing anything hard because you just press the gas and let the computer get over whatever it is you're trying to tackle. It can literally do anything, but that's not always as fun!

It is kind of cool to hear all the computers and stuff kick in while you go over something impossible looking...

 

[86runner-sas]

no way. 33's are the limit for ifs. actually in my case i wouldnt go bigger because on the 2nd and 3rd generation toys u can just crank up the torsion bars and your good to go for 33's. after that sas is the way to go, if u actually take your truck off road. otherwise u can just waste your money on an ifs lift and tell yourself that u take it offroad. and putting 37's on toyota axles is the limit. can u say snapping birfields. 35's are the way to go.

 

[86runner-sas]

if my truck had a computer doing the work for me i would kick my self in the nuts. thats no fun at all and what do u learn to do on the trail? i love the feel of having to get out use my winch, figuring out which is the best line. rocking the truck back and forth. thats the best part of wheeling.

 

[86runner-sas]

thank you. ifs and irs are more street friendly. irs on a truck is horrible. ifs up front sucks for real offroaders but for some people its all they need. so i understand why it changed in 86 to ifs on the pickups and 4runners. the solid axle by far is the best way to go when ofroading.

 

[Vortec4800]

When we first tried to jack up my dad's Rover to work on it, I remember putting the jack under the main chassis and lifting it all the way up to the top of the jack. The wheels were still touching the ground. I've also seen what kind of articulation this vehicle is capable of, and while it may not be as simple and straight forward as the solid axle design - it works. When I heard the new Rover was going to have IRS I was also skeptical. The new Range Rover is one of the best off road vehicles in the world, which has to say something about the IRS.

I love my Yota, but I've got Land Rover blood.

 

[bulldog-yota]

I agree IRS seems a bit too much for the current day and age. Solid axles still seems to be the best. However I think manufacturers can do a lot more with independant suspensions that they have done. Will have to see how well the new Land Rovers do (the Range Rover and LR3) in the next few years. Unfortunately most people that but them will not even see a dirt road

The VW / Porsche effort is still flaky at best. It is their first attempt and I think a lot of people are having lots of issues with these vehicles in terms of quality, etc. I also believe (still need to see it in action) that they have very little articulation with the air suspension.

The point of factory vechiles is to be able to do moderate at best trails, not hardcore. I have yet to see a factory vechile today that will be able to do anything hardcore, probably the closest will be the Jeep Rubicon. Toyota need to decide if they want to put the FJ Cruiser into production........

On my 4Runner I believe Toyota could have made the A arms in the front at least 20% longer, which would have helped a lot with articulation. Currently it is not very flexible. Good Times has a pretty neat front setup with a lot more travel, want to check it out this coming weekend at Pismo.

 

[bulldog-yota]

bulldog-y,
did you try disconnecting the swaybar? That will give you tons more travel up front. Put some quick-disconnects on there. I am actually very impressed with the articulation on the 4Runner.

Nope, as I dont have quick Disco. I want to do it, but will wait till I can get a suspension setup I want to keep for the long term.

Have you lifted your Runner yet? I have lifted mine and I think a spacer lift as actually reduces the front flexibility.

Hi Vortec, maybe post some pics with the RR and 4R back to back on the same obstacle or ramp if you have access to one, do both front and rear. I think that will help a lot. I know lots of people have raved about the RR, I just wish I could see one in real action sometime. But then again they are pretty $$$$$ to get sctratched on trails.

 

[bulldog-yota]

The best would be to get coils and shocks that go with it, so it willl give you the best travel and work together nicely (think OME).

The spacers on the front goes in the strut and on top, and in the back no strut. So there shouldn't be too much of an issue about springs sagging over time. Not if done within reason.

The lift is worth it if you do some trails, the stock 4R is a bit low.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Yeah I have XREAS, so spacers it is for now.

But I have come to the realization that sooner or later I will part with the XREAS system.

 

[Good Times]

no way. 33's are the limit for ifs. actually in my case i wouldnt go bigger because on the 2nd and 3rd generation toys u can just crank up the torsion bars and your good to go for 33's. after that sas is the way to go, if u actually take your truck off road. otherwise u can just waste your money on an ifs lift and tell yourself that u take it offroad. and putting 37's on toyota axles is the limit. can u say snapping birfields. 35's are the way to go.

For the 2nd gen I think the limit will be whatever you can crank the torsion bars.

For the 3rd and 4th gen we don't have torsion bars. As for limitation for IFS for the 3rd/4th gen, you can go 35's w/ them. I have personally seen a few 3rd gen w/ 35's in action

Keep in mind that once you go that large of a tire, you'll want to get a power steering cooler because there's more stress on the power steering.

I would say 35's the max for IFS (3rd/4th gen). After that you gotta fo SAS but it's not easy (there's only a handful of 3rd gen's w/ the SAS).

Like I said before, if you don't plan to go beyond 35's then IFS is the way togo. Now if you have the balls and the $$ for a SAS then I'd say there's really no limit at that point

 

[Good Times]

FirstToyz:

If you're worried about the spacer causing the springs to sag, need not worry. If you get the Daystar Spacers, those are places on top of the existing top plate so it doesn't change the characteristic of the stock suspension. All it uses are spacers on top of the stock plate to give you more lift. Very basic and works.

If you're waiting for longer and stronger coils, you'll run into problems. The problem is that your stock XREAS shock will limit you severely because of the limited travel it has. Adding longer coils will only hyperextend (if that even exits) the shock and you'll have literally no travel at all. Ya get what I mean?

Everyone else w/ 4th gens:
Now if you guys want more travel, remove the front swaybar. I've removed mine the first time I went offroading and you'll notice alot more travel and it definitely helps alot. Hardly get any body roll as the truck itself is pretty stiff so it works for me. Not like I"m going to be doing any rallying races so I"m not worried about the swaybars missing. Sometimes I don't even notice then at all! I do feel more body roll now due to the added bumpers though

Now if you guys are thinking about swaybar disconnects, I've thought about it and have tried to come up w/ some ideas but it's really difficult. The biggiest problem is this... Look at where your swaybar end links are located... It's right above the CV boot. Therefore if you add some Quick disconnects the end links will drive into your book at full compression. I've though about some diff quick disconnects but that's on the back burner. Maybe I can sit down and look at the config and maybe think of something either today or tomorrow.

None the less, before I start rambling...

 

[Vortec4800]

Hi Vortec, maybe post some pics with the RR and 4R back to back on the same obstacle or ramp if you have access to one, do both front and rear. I think that will help a lot. I know lots of people have raved about the RR, I just wish I could see one in real action sometime. But then again they are pretty $$$$$ to get sctratched on trails.

Sure thing, I can take whatever pictures you guys want, just let me know what you actually want pictures of... I don't really have any good ramps around here that I can think of...

To be honest I don't know how they overcame the problems with the CV angle and the like, as I've never really looked into it. All I know is I've seen it in action, and its quite a show. You obviously can't "lift" the RR because of the air suspension, but the "extended mode" for off-roading does lift the truck about 3" I believe. If the computer senses you bottom out the chassis somewhere, it will push the suspension up to another 4 - 6" (!) until you get unstuck, then lowers itself back down after you're clear. (These numbers are off the top of my head, they could be wrong - but I do know its something around there)

I'll look around and try to find something that shows the articulation, maybe we can figure out how they solved these problems. A giant rock to perch a tire on would work well... Just have to find one...

 

[Good Times]

:thumb: Daystar!

And if ya need help installing it, I know you don't live too far from me so I can help ya out I know Biff (Victor) would also be willing to drop by as he loves to get his hands dirty