Improved T4R MPG....
- Thread starter SigSense
- Start date
I look at this as a matter of real-world savings. If you finance a vehicle for 72 months does the interest make the vehicle much more expensive than at a shorter term... Yes. If you keep the vehicle for the length of the loan and beyond you paid less each month than with the shorter term. If not done in a rediculous manner extending terms can be a rational decision to allow you to make a purchase more comfortably over time by spending a little more in the long run. Fuel however cannot be financed or spread over years of an auto loan. So while the numbers may be close to a wash, it doesn't feel that way when you have to go to the pump to fill up.
The HEMI is much more thirsty than the epa mpg numbers on the window sticker... so the change is probably more dramatic for the JGC Diesel compared to the Mercedes.
1engineer
Moderator
Holy crap you mean we agree on something???
jazzyfunkykool
New member
This is incorrect. The vehicles listed here mostly use a Urea spray mechanism that needs to constantly be refilled in order to comply with US diesel contaminant laws.
You are correct that gas is subsidiesed to a much higher degree in Europe then here.
homeyclaus
New member
I told my pious (Prius, sorry) the same thing, with the same spreadsheet; 30 mpg (effective) Toyota Matrix vs 40 mpg (effective) Prius, vs the price. Along with links on Lithium Ion battery production and disposal. I actually worked out their carbon footprint with it.
They didn't talk to me again.
The moral of the story: Don't interfere with the story using hard numbers. Emotions tend to divide by zero, meaning they're not real, but the effects of them sure are
1) The urea tank doesn't need to "constantly be refilled." On the Mercedes models, they estimate that the tank will last about 15,000 miles, so the tank will just be topped up at every oil change (which is about once per year on a Mercedes). The net result is that you will pay an extra ~$30 per year on your oil change.
2) European emissions laws are getting tighter and will be approaching our levels. As a result, the diesel engines sold in the US are getting closer to those sold in Europe.
Huh?
Gasoline is not subsidized in Europe or in the US. Diesel is not subsidized in Europe or in the US. Gasoline and diesel are taxed in Europe and the US. A subsidy is the opposite of a tax. Tax means money is paid to the government. A subsidy means that the government is paying money.
In the US, diesel fuel costs more than gasoline, due to taxes. In Europe, gasoline costs more than diesel fuel due to taxes.
homeyclaus
New member
It's just taxed less. No fuel for private vehicles in either jurisdiction is subsidized.
The urea spray solution isn't for US regulations (there is a difference, remember, the EPA deems the American people irrational, and by extension, stupid: link), it's to comply with the more stringent EU regulations. But because those regulations were not invented here, all new models of light duty vehicles must be tested, in each configuration sold, to be admitted to the US market. So that TDI Golf in Europe's engine was tested in one configuration, and the emissions extrapolated from there. Here they add a sunroof, and you pretty much need a new test (which comes with a few thousand dollars' worth of filings and a few hundred thousand dollars' worth of legal fees of course).
Why urea injection? Because Peugeot came out with their catalytic converter diesel engine in 2003. It didn't smell like a diesel, and with the backpressure controls it didn't sound more like one than the dual VVT-i our 4Runners come with. It was awesome, and they dropped into their "best" car, the 307 hatchback, a direct competitor to the Golf. I still remember that commercial, it was pretty funny, with a German businessman renting a car in France and having specified a diesel engine, and bringing it back because it did not stink.
The Germans literally poo-pooed it in the European automotive press. And that year they could not give their diesel cars away. Much crow was eaten in the following years. Sometime around that EU5 was published. And management still can't admit they're wrong, so they made their engineers come up with something other than the catalytic system Peugeot used.
VW ended up paying up to Peugeot and licensed their catalytic converters, as did BMW. Or holes were found in the patents. Only Daimler steadfastly refuses. Which is why Mercedes light duty and passenger vehicles need urea.
damnit!
1engineer
Moderator
I told my pious (Prius, sorry) the same thing, with the same spreadsheet; 30 mpg (effective) Toyota Matrix vs 40 mpg (effective) Prius, vs the price. Along with links on Lithium Ion battery production and disposal. I actually worked out their carbon footprint with it.
They didn't talk to me again.
The moral of the story: Don't interfere with the story using hard numbers. Emotions tend to divide by zero, meaning they're not real, but the effects of them sure are
Now I know why people's eyes just glaze over when I tell them the punch line is "04355!!!! hahahahaha!!!" (crickets chirp in the background too)
I told my pious (Prius, sorry) the same thing, with the same spreadsheet; 30 mpg (effective) Toyota Matrix vs 40 mpg (effective) Prius, vs the price. Along with links on Lithium Ion battery production and disposal. I actually worked out their carbon footprint with it.
They didn't talk to me again.
The moral of the story: Don't interfere with the story using hard numbers. Emotions tend to divide by zero, meaning they're not real, but the effects of them sure are
Don't forget maintenance costs. Oil in pre-2007 diesels could go 10,000 miles. In the new ones it's generally 5000 because during a DPF regeneration there is excess fuel sprayed in the combustion chamber (to heat up and burn off the particulates in the filter - over 1000 degrees for about 10-15 minutes on my truck - will vary per vehicle and filter size) and some of it gets past the rings and into the oil. Refered to as "making oil" therefore requiring more frequent oil changes.
Also check out the price of a failed fuel injector on these new (post-2007) diesels. A thousand bucks or more PER injector on my 2008 F250 super duty. Not to mention the labor (but that was specific to that truck).
Check out the VW jetta and passats diesel forums. If your fuel got some water in it and made it to the fuel rail... You're looking at about $10,000 in repairs. Most newer diesel fuel rails operate at 30,000 PSI - that's a LOT of pressure.
The post 2007 diesels are not worth the trouble in my opinion. Lots of torque and tons of fun, but when you have an issue, your wallet and savings account take a beating!
A 3 yr lease would be perfect on one!
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