Intresting ECU story

[wfo9]

I don't really believe this story 100%, but I thought I would share it just to add to the folklore of these engines.

A friend of mine recently borrowed another friends FJ. The one he borrowed was a very early 2007 built in 2006. He proceeds to ask me if there is anyway his FJ (2008) can be programmed to be as powerful as the 2007. I told him there is no aftermarket way to program a Toyota ECU, but this is where the story gets interesting.

Both of these FJs are 100% stock automatics as far as the motor/tranny goes. Other than that they are both fully built with bumpers, winch, lift, snorkels... and the 2007 is actually on 35s with stock gearing.

He continues on about how much more powerful this 2007 is then his. He claims it gets ~24mpg and has gobs of tq around 2k RPM and up. The whole time I'm thinking it must have a super charger LOL.

He proceeds to tell me that this 2007 FJ has the original programming from Toyota before all the torque management was put in to save the rear ends. The owner then shows up and proceeds to tell me that the original FJs all came AND WERE RATED with 100+RWTQ,HP, but early adopters and test revealed that the rear diff was extremely weak, so they turned down the power via the ECU. Later, they found the weak component in the diff and fixed it, but never went back to the original calibration.

The story goes on that someone took a copy of this version of the ECU and flashed it into a Tacoma. The gains were supposedly amazing.

I have a pretty decent background in tuning. So I tried to rationalize this story with them. I said it was possible that the newer ECU had more aggressive tq management, but that this would most likely only be felt around shifts and the peak tq RPM range of the motor. I also figured the throttle mapping could be totally different making the newer model feel like you have to mash the throttle much harder to get the same response (5th gen owners are very familiar with this BS) But, they both insisted it was way more than that and that the 2007 also got about 2x the MPG. The MPG difference is something that simply can't be explained as a calibration issue IMHO.

I went on to tell them that I thought there was probably a problem with the 2008 (like a clogged cat) or something. Again, they claimed the 07 was different than any other FJ (and these guys have driven quite a few).

Anyway, it's just a story supporting how dialed back the ECU might really be.... I'm not sure how much of it I really believe...perceptions are just that.. reality with data is something completely different. (although, they did claim they calculated and compared the mpg on a few long overland trips)

Also, please don't respond to this thread by insulting my friends.... They were just giving me their first hand experiences. .

 

[Lester Lugnut]

The story goes on that someone took a copy of this version of the ECU and flashed it into a Tacoma. The gains were supposedly amazing.

I take it someone with a dealer laptop and dealer Techstream + model specific ECU software did the reflash.

It's my understanding the pirated techstream from China cannot reflash.

It would seem the programming on these 2 vehicles is VERY similar or there would be all sorts of codes being thrown/operational issues/etc. Perhaps only "performance" related areas were reflashed. Still.........

I'm not familiar with the FJs, but believe the 24 mpg is pretty impressive.

Interesting story.

 

[lilsid112]

Anyway to dyno both cars on the same dyno?

 

[Landy]

The 2007-2009 FJ's have the exact same engine, trans, and ECU. The ECU changed with the 2010 FJ/4Runner along with the Dual-VVTI engine. As we all know, the additional horsepower on paper doesn't translate into responsiveness. In fact, the 2010-present ECU makes it downright unresponsive in comparison to the 2003-2009 4Runner/2007-2009 FJ Cruiser with the single VVTI engine.

 

[wfo9]

The 2007-2009 FJ's have the exact same engine, trans, and ECU. The ECU changed with the 2010 FJ/4Runner along with the Dual-VVTI engine. As we all know, the additional horsepower on paper doesn't translate into responsiveness. In fact, the 2010-present ECU makes it downright unresponsive in comparison to the 2003-2009 4Runner/2007-2009 FJ Cruiser with the single VVTI engine.

Right, this is comparing a 2007 FJ to a 2008, both the same non dual VVTI..... The legend/story is that the first few 2007 FJs sold in the US and produced in 2006 had a unique calibration.

Like I said, I have no idea if any of this is actual reality. Just going on their perceptions and story.

I just thought it was interesting....

 

[mo_mo]

Right, this is comparing a 2007 FJ to a 2008, both the same non dual VVTI..... The legend/story is that the first few 2007 FJs sold in the US and produced in 2006 had a unique calibration.

Like I said, I have no idea if any of this is actual reality. Just going on their perceptions and story.

I just thought it was interesting....

I heard the 2006 tune loved diesel.

 

[badger109]

Both have stock gears & one has bigger tires, makes sense that one feels different.

 

[wfo9]

Both have stock gears & one has bigger tires, makes sense that one feels different.

You misunderstood. The 2007 has 35s the 2008 has 33s. The 2007 supposedly feels like it has 2x the power and gets 2x the MPG. Bigger tires should make it feel slower.

I'm going to drive it and compare it to my truck soon. This magical ECU is like Bigfoot as far as I'm concerned.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I take it someone with a dealer laptop and dealer Techstream + model specific ECU software did the reflash.

It's my understanding the pirated techstream from China cannot reflash.

It would seem the programming on these 2 vehicles is VERY similar or there would be all sorts of codes being thrown/operational issues/etc. Perhaps only "performance" related areas were reflashed. Still.........

I'm not familiar with the FJs, but believe the 24 mpg is pretty impressive.

Interesting story.

It shouldn't be possible. As far as I have noticed the TIS Techstream will not allow you to backflash. It will cross reference the ECM calibration idea via the utility and tell you if it is okay to flash or not (this comes up when we do flashes per TSBs/Campaigns, it will not let you put the wrong flash in a vehicle.) That being said, I don't see how you could make that work anyways as Toyota does not sell blank ECMs (at least not that I have heard of,) so I don't see how you could flash it that way either.

Did you ask them if the owner is running a Crawford EcoBlock? I hear those things work wonders. :biggrin1:

 

[Landy]

Right, this is comparing a 2007 FJ to a 2008, both the same non dual VVTI..... The legend/story is that the first few 2007 FJs sold in the US and produced in 2006 had a unique calibration.

Like I said, I have no idea if any of this is actual reality. Just going on their perceptions and story.

I just thought it was interesting....

I have never heard that. If true, those FJ's are probably worth a lot of money!

 

[wfo9]

Did you ask them if the owner is running a Crawford EcoBlock? I hear those things work wonders. :biggrin1:

I did ask them how they thought the ECU made it run so much stronger and several guys standing there jumped in saying it allowed more air... More air equals more power is what they told me. LOL. It's funny how most people just assume you don't know much about how engines work. The discussion went on and I conceded that the older ECM could indeed target a leaner open loop AFR and be a bit more aggressive with the timing (but not 100 hp more). The MPG difference is something that I can't imagine could be explained by calibration alone. A few MPGs I would believe, but 2x is impossible.

I do think the Toyota ECU holds these things way back, but not 100tq/100hp.

 

[wfo9]

I have never heard that. If true, those FJ's are probably worth a lot of money!

Another point that was brought up (that I just remembered) is that Jason Demello had confirmed the difference.. Maybe it is true.. maybe its just an internet legend. But my friend was really convinced the 2007 had way more power on tap than his. I wonder if you can just swap ECUs and go.

I will say that mine typically feels much more powerful after I have the battery disconnected for a while. It eventually learns its way back to feeling a little sleepy. .

 

[gm350reratliff]

I don't buy the 24 mpg for a second but I do believe that they may feel completely different. There also may be different tuning from the factory which could be due to different emissions, noise, throttle tip-in feel, etc., that Toyota was targeting between the years. Could also be the difference in how the two engines were broke in, type and condition of fuel, time from last tune-up.

I have seen this with a few different vehicles though. There was quite a bit of difference between the 1996 454 Vortec and the 1998 454 Vortec due to the fact that some emissions requirements had changed prompting a ecu tune change. Even though they were rated the same, the 1996 engines ran much stronger.

My 4th and 5th gen runners both have the 1GR V6 but I prefer how the 4th gen is tuned hands down over my 5th gen. Even though my 5th gen is rated for more power, my 4th gen feels much stronger. I know there were quite a few other changes between the 4th and 5th gen 1GR's as well.

 

[Jeremy556]

I may be wrong, but I have never heard of anyone successfully flashing 4runner/FJC/Tacoma ECUs with anything other than signed Toyota firmware.

The guy with 35s may be calculating 24 or whatever MPG based on the inaccurate odometer caused by his larger tires. No way it feels faster with stock gearing without over 100 more ft/lb tq. I want to see dyno sheets.

Initially, the FJC was rated with higher HP/TQ numbers and required premium fuel. There was some backlash at the premium requirement, which led Toyota to dropping that requirement and publishing new HP/TQ numbers based on 87 octane. No difference in firmware, just the ECU retarding timing to work on 87 octane. The second gen Tacoma and our updated 1GRFE are the same in that they produce more HP/TQ on 91 octane than 87.

The diffs in the old FJC were known for grenading, but it generally involved larger tires, 4lo, and breaking/regaining traction. Hence the "8.2" diff in the 2010+ FJC and 4runner.

 

[LandCruiser]

I owned an 07 first production 6MT and can attest that the thing was a beast, it also liked to blow up its drivetrain components.

I've probably driven every MY of the first 3-4 years those things were out and the only thing I've noticed is that the MT feels a LOT faster than the AT's. I've also heard the rumors about the engine programming, but I don't believe them.

Also, the trucks are getting old and beaten to hell so any ones out on the road today I'd expect to see a variance in.

 

[Jeremy556]

I owned an 07 first production 6MT and can attest that the thing was a beast, it also liked to blow up its drivetrain components.

Check out the gear ratios in the 6MT (RA61) vs the 5AT (A750F). The 6MT also had 3.91 differential gears, compared to 3.71 in the ATs.

RA61F
1 4.17
2 2.19
3 1.49
4 1.195
5 1
6 0.8


A750F
1 3.52
2 2.04
3 1.4
4 1
5 0.72

 

[wfo9]

I owned an 07 first production 6MT and can attest that the thing was a beast, it also liked to blow up its drivetrain components.

I've probably driven every MY of the first 3-4 years those things were out and the only thing I've noticed is that the MT feels a LOT faster than the AT's. I've also heard the rumors about the engine programming, but I don't believe them.

Also, the trucks are getting old and beaten to hell so any ones out on the road today I'd expect to see a variance in.

Pretty sure the 6MT had 3:90 diffs while all the automatics have 373. That plus the 6speed would account for a big difference in feel.

There is always variance between cars of the same model year... Some are simply a little stronger than others. I test drove a bunch of used 5th gens when looking for mine and some were beyond dogs. I think most of that was related to the shitty fuel the dealers had in them.... Mine felt pretty darn quick until I put the MTRs on it. Now it feels like it has to work for it again.

I'm thinking of dumping the after cats and see what happens. I know it won't make a huge difference, but I figure why the heck not.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

I've durability tested a ton of vehicles over the years, and I can tell you is that not once was the engine de-tuned to save a diff. The engineers simply brought in a beefier diff. HP sells - period. If Toyota could sell a massive HP, 24 MPG BOF SUV (with 35's), they would. We currently have what Toyota feels they can deliver while maintaining their standard of reliability. If there was something magic about the 2007, I feel like that would have been carried through all of the model years after. Sometimes I feel like we all chase the "perfect vehicle" dragon. Said vehicle never existed, and never will, but the one in my driveway is still awesome so I guess I'll have to take it as it is.

 

[wfo9]

I've durability tested a ton of vehicles over the years, and I can tell you is that not once was the engine de-tuned to save a diff. The engineers simply brought in a beefier diff. HP sells - period. If Toyota could sell a massive HP, 24 MPG BOF SUV (with 35's), they would. We currently have what Toyota feels they can deliver while maintaining their standard of reliability. If there was something magic about the 2007, I feel like that would have been carried through all of the model years after. Sometimes I feel like we all chase the "perfect vehicle" dragon. Said vehicle never existed, and never will, but the one in my driveway is still awesome so I guess I'll have to take it as it is.

I'm with you on if they could they would, but...

I can say is that TQ mgt is real and is part of pretty much every modern ECU. It is there to save the driveline. More the transmission than the diff, but its all part of the same failure vector. Toyota seems to be the most conservative of any mfg when it comes to this type of stuff.

 

[delloro]

the +power hi-MPG 2007 ECU program was bought by the Big Oil Companies and then stored right next to the 100-mpg carburetor.