Inv4drZm's Build Thread
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Inv4drZm
Senior Member
Had them installed and aligned. I told him I wanted 5 degrees castor and mentioned I had aftermarket upper control arms, and he told the tech nearby "get as high castor as you can before it throws the other measurements out of spec, around 5 degrees." He told me I would be lucky to get 5 degrees before it started wearing my tires bad.
I picked it up and he said he only got 2.5 degrees before the other measurements changed. It looks like they just adjusted the toe. Here is the alignment sheet for you experts to analyze.
On the way to the tire shop:
Its stupid bright and hot outside today which makes it impossible to take a decent picture of my truck.
I picked it up and he said he only got 2.5 degrees before the other measurements changed. It looks like they just adjusted the toe. Here is the alignment sheet for you experts to analyze.
On the way to the tire shop:
Its stupid bright and hot outside today which makes it impossible to take a decent picture of my truck.
blackoutt
New member
Looks like a classic toe and go to me! You can look at your LCA adjusters to see where the cams are, if front and rear are maxed out in opposite directions then they may not be lying. If you have adjustable upper control arms like SPC you can play all sorts of games with caster/camber on those to make the alignment shop be able to get your numbers without doing too much work. Most alignment techs won't take the time to do what you ask unless you continue to take it back and nag. It's painful.
Inv4drZm
Senior Member
Looks like the front and back cams are maxed out separate ways. My brother has 5 degrees caster but maybe that's why his tires are wearing weird, not sure about his other measurements.
My 35's stuff hard into the firewall, even after my trimming and beating. Body mount and sliders have enough clearance. Leaving tomorrow for Moab so more work for me... Mostly finished wiring my lights at 12:30 last night, it's been a long week.
blackoutt
New member
I have 4 degrees caster and yes I think it wears my tires more on the edges but I like how it drives. If you have 0 caster then camber stays the same at any point in turning the wheels. If you have lots of caster, when you turn your wheels you'll get lots of camber when turning too. I think the only way to get more caster in your case would be different UCAs.
Inv4drZm
Senior Member
Where do I start?
For our trip this year, we originally planned to attend the Moab before Summit event for a couple days, then drive to California to do the Mojave road, Anza-Borrego NP, drive to Sedona Arizona to do some really neat trails, camp beside the Grand Canyon in a little-known area, then crash the last day of FJ Summit in Colorado before returning home... That was the plan before my truck decided to crap its important parts...
Last minute preps a couple days away from leaving
The flex-and-trim treatment to fit the 35's
Full front stuff, 1.5" BL and Wheeler's Superbumps with their small drop spacer:
Way more trimming needed with my poor alignment numbers:
The rough layout of my hastily screwed together cargo storage/ sleeping platform. I added proper tie-down locations for everything the night before we left. Still planning to use roll-on bedliner and carpet to finish it up if I don't redo it first:
I also welded a rear receiver hitch to my crossmember, mounted and wired my switchpros, and finished up other last minute stuff during the last day, went to bed 2hrs before we woke up in the morning to drive 11hrs to Moab. And I hadn't even packed yet...
Day 1
Woke up early and drove all the way from Kansas to Moab Utah. Met up with a couple of FJ's, 1 from Vermont and the other from California, and did the Top of the World trail as the rain just stopped and the sun began to set.
The Top of the World overlook looked great when we showed up. What about in the morning?
Yes we camped at the Top of the World. Yes it was awesome.
Day 2
Good morning! I can see you now.
Quick pic on the overlook before we left:
When we headed down from Top of the World and took a shortcut to do Rose Garden Hill trail, that was where things went downhill for the 4Runner. In this next picture you can see the beginning of a couple ledges which is where 'it' happened. Little did I know that on that fateful trail, I would join the ranks of many great Toyota enthusiasts on the forums that wheel with 35's. 768 miles from home...
Yes, my rear diff decided to give out while attempting to climb those difficult ledges. Yes I did bounce the rear axle a couple times during my attempts. In my defense, worn out 33's are a far cry from my new grippy 35's. My brother told me it was 'driver error' but I doubt any driver would have made it up without busted gears unless they opted for a winch right off the bat. I tried 2 different lines and when each one resulted in wheel hop I slammed on the brakes. Not much more I could have done. The FJ before me hopped their rear axle when clambering up, the one after me did, the only reason why my brother's didn't was that he had rocks stacked for him when driving around my broken AF truck. But don't tell him that. And nobody seemed to remember he broke his before me.
My truck got towed 10 miles off the trail back to a camping spot, but not before my brakes suddenly overheated and I about ran into the FJ towing me (I honked my horn like a maniac and thankfully we stopped going up a hill). After that, 1 FJ towed while the other acted as my brakes being strapped on behind me. When any slack got into our chain, my truck was basically yanked apart back and forth until the lines became taught again. Fun.
As if the whole diff thing wasn't enough, while I was being towed, we noticed my passenger side coilover's remote resi was leaking quite a bit at the fitting. The lowest blow however was when 3 of my 4 SCS wheel caps fell off. WTF? My only explanation was when my brakes got stupid hot and no longer functioned, the heat softened the caps.
Don't look; it's ugly:
This changed our trip plans because we didn't want to do the remote Mojave road with the 3 of us piled into the FJ, without a secondary vehicle as backup. At this point, day 2, the possibility of the rest of our vacation was looking bleak. Fortunately, a very good friend drove all the way from Kansas with an empty trailer to take my truck back home. Honestly, after it was all said and done, things could have been way worse. A broken rear axle in Moab is nothing compared to someone accidentally hurting themselves, rolling their truck off a cliff, or breaking my rear axle further from home in Arizona or on the remote Mojave Road later on in the trip. I feel super fortunate to know people that would take the time to help tow me off a trail, and drive many hours to pick my truck up and bring it all the way home. I hope I can at least return the favor to those people some day.
For our trip this year, we originally planned to attend the Moab before Summit event for a couple days, then drive to California to do the Mojave road, Anza-Borrego NP, drive to Sedona Arizona to do some really neat trails, camp beside the Grand Canyon in a little-known area, then crash the last day of FJ Summit in Colorado before returning home... That was the plan before my truck decided to crap its important parts...
Last minute preps a couple days away from leaving
The flex-and-trim treatment to fit the 35's
Full front stuff, 1.5" BL and Wheeler's Superbumps with their small drop spacer:
Way more trimming needed with my poor alignment numbers:
The rough layout of my hastily screwed together cargo storage/ sleeping platform. I added proper tie-down locations for everything the night before we left. Still planning to use roll-on bedliner and carpet to finish it up if I don't redo it first:
I also welded a rear receiver hitch to my crossmember, mounted and wired my switchpros, and finished up other last minute stuff during the last day, went to bed 2hrs before we woke up in the morning to drive 11hrs to Moab. And I hadn't even packed yet...
Day 1
Woke up early and drove all the way from Kansas to Moab Utah. Met up with a couple of FJ's, 1 from Vermont and the other from California, and did the Top of the World trail as the rain just stopped and the sun began to set.
The Top of the World overlook looked great when we showed up. What about in the morning?
Yes we camped at the Top of the World. Yes it was awesome.
Day 2
Good morning! I can see you now.
Quick pic on the overlook before we left:
When we headed down from Top of the World and took a shortcut to do Rose Garden Hill trail, that was where things went downhill for the 4Runner. In this next picture you can see the beginning of a couple ledges which is where 'it' happened. Little did I know that on that fateful trail, I would join the ranks of many great Toyota enthusiasts on the forums that wheel with 35's. 768 miles from home...
Yes, my rear diff decided to give out while attempting to climb those difficult ledges. Yes I did bounce the rear axle a couple times during my attempts. In my defense, worn out 33's are a far cry from my new grippy 35's. My brother told me it was 'driver error' but I doubt any driver would have made it up without busted gears unless they opted for a winch right off the bat. I tried 2 different lines and when each one resulted in wheel hop I slammed on the brakes. Not much more I could have done. The FJ before me hopped their rear axle when clambering up, the one after me did, the only reason why my brother's didn't was that he had rocks stacked for him when driving around my broken AF truck. But don't tell him that. And nobody seemed to remember he broke his before me.
My truck got towed 10 miles off the trail back to a camping spot, but not before my brakes suddenly overheated and I about ran into the FJ towing me (I honked my horn like a maniac and thankfully we stopped going up a hill). After that, 1 FJ towed while the other acted as my brakes being strapped on behind me. When any slack got into our chain, my truck was basically yanked apart back and forth until the lines became taught again. Fun.
As if the whole diff thing wasn't enough, while I was being towed, we noticed my passenger side coilover's remote resi was leaking quite a bit at the fitting. The lowest blow however was when 3 of my 4 SCS wheel caps fell off. WTF? My only explanation was when my brakes got stupid hot and no longer functioned, the heat softened the caps.
Don't look; it's ugly:
This changed our trip plans because we didn't want to do the remote Mojave road with the 3 of us piled into the FJ, without a secondary vehicle as backup. At this point, day 2, the possibility of the rest of our vacation was looking bleak. Fortunately, a very good friend drove all the way from Kansas with an empty trailer to take my truck back home. Honestly, after it was all said and done, things could have been way worse. A broken rear axle in Moab is nothing compared to someone accidentally hurting themselves, rolling their truck off a cliff, or breaking my rear axle further from home in Arizona or on the remote Mojave Road later on in the trip. I feel super fortunate to know people that would take the time to help tow me off a trail, and drive many hours to pick my truck up and bring it all the way home. I hope I can at least return the favor to those people some day.
Inv4drZm
Senior Member
Seeing the world through the FJ's rear window of shame was sad:
Where she sat for the rest of her trip nearby our camp:
Day 3
Woke up a bit late and drove to the Moab city market barely in time to follow a group of FJ's leaving for the trails. We followed them to a trailhead on the La Sal mountain range nearby Moab. We're still in Utah? What is this green vegetation and why is water falling from the sky? 60 degrees? OK.
There was a serious lack of 4Runners on the Moab before Summit event LOL. I'm sorry I was unable to represent T4R nation properly this year:
After the trail run we met up with more FJ's at Milt's Burgers and Shakes in Moab, which would soon become a frequent occurrence after wheeling.
The trailer arrived in the evening and I drove it up the ramps no problem. We stayed the night at the nearby campsite again. Last pic of the 4Runner during the trip:
Day 4
Woke up and kissed the 4Runner goodbye before heading out in the FJ for more trails. We joined the hardcore group doing Metal Masher which was a lot of fun.
Tried backing down and was literally saved by his slider. Winched up the rest of the way. Crazy pics:
Love this one:
After this our FJ group ate at a restaurant where I had the best burrito ever and we planned the next day. We all registered to do Elephant Hill which apparently would be a blast. It seriously did not disappoint.
Stayed the night in a hotel for the first time during the trip. A shower and AC seemed like a miracle sent from heaven.
Day 5
The Elephant Hill trailhead is over an hour drive from Moab, but as you will see, it's well worth it.
Where she sat for the rest of her trip nearby our camp:
Day 3
Woke up a bit late and drove to the Moab city market barely in time to follow a group of FJ's leaving for the trails. We followed them to a trailhead on the La Sal mountain range nearby Moab. We're still in Utah? What is this green vegetation and why is water falling from the sky? 60 degrees? OK.
There was a serious lack of 4Runners on the Moab before Summit event LOL. I'm sorry I was unable to represent T4R nation properly this year:
After the trail run we met up with more FJ's at Milt's Burgers and Shakes in Moab, which would soon become a frequent occurrence after wheeling.
The trailer arrived in the evening and I drove it up the ramps no problem. We stayed the night at the nearby campsite again. Last pic of the 4Runner during the trip:
Day 4
Woke up and kissed the 4Runner goodbye before heading out in the FJ for more trails. We joined the hardcore group doing Metal Masher which was a lot of fun.
Tried backing down and was literally saved by his slider. Winched up the rest of the way. Crazy pics:
Love this one:
After this our FJ group ate at a restaurant where I had the best burrito ever and we planned the next day. We all registered to do Elephant Hill which apparently would be a blast. It seriously did not disappoint.
Stayed the night in a hotel for the first time during the trip. A shower and AC seemed like a miracle sent from heaven.
Day 5
The Elephant Hill trailhead is over an hour drive from Moab, but as you will see, it's well worth it.
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Inv4drZm
Senior Member
Wheeling in the weirdest place on earth:
Obstacle called Devil's Pocket. Yes, I made myself useful and clambered up the large rock to snag some pics.
Scraped sliders on one side, and folded in mirrors on the other. Tight fit:
Had lunch in a shaded area called Devil's Kitchen.
There is a picnic table under the tree where the blue spec is:
Keep on wheeling:
Why is that massive boulder up there?
We can hear thunder coming:
We hiked 1/2 mile on foot to find a cave:
Stopped to look at some art:
I'm still salty my 4Runner isn't in these pics.
Hiked another 1/2 mile trail.
What's on the other side of these rocks?
Obstacle called Devil's Pocket. Yes, I made myself useful and clambered up the large rock to snag some pics.
Scraped sliders on one side, and folded in mirrors on the other. Tight fit:
Had lunch in a shaded area called Devil's Kitchen.
There is a picnic table under the tree where the blue spec is:
Keep on wheeling:
Why is that massive boulder up there?
We can hear thunder coming:
We hiked 1/2 mile on foot to find a cave:
Stopped to look at some art:
I'm still salty my 4Runner isn't in these pics.
Hiked another 1/2 mile trail.
What's on the other side of these rocks?
Inv4drZm
Senior Member
You can see an ant guy walking on the beach near the water if you click on the pic to view it full res.
Expensive rocks in Moab:
Day 6
Made our way over to the Salida area in Colorado, and stayed at a friend's family friend's cabin.
Day 7
Fed the chipmunks in St. Elmo before tackling Tincup Pass and another easy scenic trail:
The rain followed us.
Conquered Iron Chest Trail near St. Elmo. Tons of boulders in the beginning but the FJ made it:
At the top:
Day 8
Drove random scenic forest roads around Salida and St. Elmo.
Day 9
Drove back home to Kansas where my 3rd member from ECGS was waiting to be installed.
Day 10
One last surprise during the 3rd member install. Broken rear sway bar. Thanks again, Moab:
Yup. Busted:
Rounded pinion teeth:
New 3rd. I stupidly ordered one with the fat harmonic flange which apparently is for 2wd 4Runners. It's the same overall length so it should work? I will email ECGS.
Rain and hail came out of nowhere from a single cloud and it poured for 10 minutes, then it went back to 100 degrees and humid. Thanks Kansas.
Good as new.
Worthless!
Notice anything wrong? It's been like that for a while just haven't replaced it yet.
Day 11 / Today/ Sunday
I have to go back to work tomorrow.
Summary:
10/10 would do Moab before Summit next year. Getting to hang out with my identical twin and one of my best friends for this trip was more than amazing, and we made new friends at the event which I hope to wheel with more next year. Hopefully by then I'll be regeared with front and rear lockers and a bulletproof 9.5" LC rear end...
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4rcybr
New member
So, what about 35s makes it more likely to break the rear diff (or would it be either diff?) than 33s? Anything to do to try to avoid that? What are the usual issues for a 4runner (besides driver error-which I usually have plenty of) that cause wheel hop?
Anyways, love the pics and whatnot.
Inv4drZm
Senior Member
The 35's are heavier which means they carry more momentum and are taller which gives them more leverage on the drivetrain which puts more stress on the gears. Most if not all of the broken rear diffs I have seen on this forum, come from users with 35's and their factory diffs. I haven't seen anyone break a front diff because on a hill climb when you are applying power, the rear diff is under most of the weight, and the CV's are the weak point in the front anyway.
Once you throw in a new 3rd member, like from ECGS, with a solid pinion spacer, I think you are good to go durability wise. ECGS has a 5 year warranty on their gears if you have 35" tires or less. I was running the 12 year old stock rear end and I knew it was the weak point on this trip. I even joked with a coworker before I left stating I hope I don't break my rear diff.
As for wheel hop, I think its most easily avoided by building up momentum through a trail and 'bumping' the obstacles. Basically not stopping with your tires resting against a rock and starting from a dead stop, smoothly rolling over it is preferred. You definitely want to stay controlled with the throttle in any case.
I didn't take any up close pics of the ledges I broke mine on, but I was basically trying to get the front and the rear axles over 2 different ledges, with a lot of truck weight on the rear. I tried to keep momentum up and roll over both ledges but got hung up, fell back down, and started wheel hopping on the grippy Moab sandstone. Not long after I heard the dreaded gunshots from the rear end.
4rcybr
New member
Thanks for the info. Am I correct in thinking that my thicker Nitro 4.56 gears are going to be slightly more resilient than the stock gears? Or is that just wishful thinking? Does the diff housing or presence of a locker matter at all?
Also,is this the sort of thing that a dual transfer case (I think you had that on your wish list?) would alleviate-since you'd be able to crawl up without the same need for momentum?
Just want to say I really appreciate the time you take to answer my questions. Always more to learn...
Inv4drZm
Senior Member
The higher gear ratios actually have smaller gears, at least the pinion is. Maybe the aftermarket gears are more durable with a better heat treating process but I have no idea on that part.
Welding some armor and gussets to your housing can't hurt anything, and any kind of flex you can eliminate will make it more bulletproof, though I don't know how much of a difference it would make unless you're a high-speed desert guy that jumps and has the potential to bend a housing. Most guys, I would say, just upgrades from the V6 8" Toyota rear end to a Currie or Diamond axle with a larger Land Cruiser gearset.
It's not even that difficult or expensive to replace the rear end, it's just the fact that in most cases it gives out without any warning leaving you stranded.
If your drivetrain has recently been rebuilt/regeared by professionals, especially if it has the solid pinion spacer, I would bank on it being good to go for a while. It's much stronger than an older stock diff.
I would also be inclined to say a rear locker gives more control in certain situations. Atrac relies on wheel spin which means you've already lost grip and are more than likely sliding back down a ledge which can start the wheel hopping. Not sure if the locker would put more stress on the gears though, that's something I've always wondered.
I had a dual stick transfer case conversion on my wishlist which would involve swapping over an FJ transfer case and installing a twin stick kit which would allow for 2WD operation and 2WD low range among other things. I may never get to it because it sounds like a lot of work but it sure would be cool.
Adding something like an Atlas transfer case like some FJ'ers have done would give you stupid low crawling ratios and higher rock clearance but that is a better question for the guys on the FJ forum.
I'm not too sure about some of this stuff but I'm always glad to help out where I can.
Edit: Here is a pic showing the difference between 4.56 and stock 3.73. 3.73 being the bigger of the two. Not sure of the difference in ring gears.
Attachments
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T4RNightHawk
New member
Yep that was me. Stock rear end with 34's which I've found carry all the same problems as 35's without the all the bling. Glad you got it fixed we actually just did the same trip just shorter and less trails.
Inv4drZm
Senior Member
Funny you say that, my brother is of the same opinion with his 305/70R17 MT/R's.
Yep my brother is starting a new job tomorrow, so it worked out well for him to be gone for a while. The guys at work were fine with me taking off so we try and take the opportunities while we are young and free LOL.
Inv4drZm
Senior Member
ECGS said the harmonic flange should still work on my 4WD 4Runner, just that since I won't be returning a 3rd with the harmonic flange back to them they are deduction $50 from my core discount which sounds reasonable.
Offroading on that one trail must have knocked my alignment way off somehow; when driving straight the steering wheel is 10 degrees to the left! I just got an alignment before the trip! It doesn't look like I nicked an cam bolt with a rock but you never know.
Also, forgot to post this nice video a guy in our group made.
Offroading on that one trail must have knocked my alignment way off somehow; when driving straight the steering wheel is 10 degrees to the left! I just got an alignment before the trip! It doesn't look like I nicked an cam bolt with a rock but you never know.
Also, forgot to post this nice video a guy in our group made.
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Inv4drZm
Senior Member
35's MPG Report
On the interstate going from Kansas to Utah
After each fillup (mileage uncompensated for the larger tires):
13 mpg
14 mpg
17 mpg
15 mpg
This past 2 weeks driving to work grannying the new diff. 50/50 10 minute interstate drive and 10 minute drive through town at 45mph. 11.5 mpg
Before the 35's with the 33's I was getting 12.5 mpg average driving to work, so not too bad of a drop.
On the interstate going from Kansas to Utah
After each fillup (mileage uncompensated for the larger tires):
13 mpg
14 mpg
17 mpg
15 mpg
This past 2 weeks driving to work grannying the new diff. 50/50 10 minute interstate drive and 10 minute drive through town at 45mph. 11.5 mpg
Before the 35's with the 33's I was getting 12.5 mpg average driving to work, so not too bad of a drop.
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Inv4drZm
Senior Member
Got the oil changed, tires balanced and aligned at Toyota today. I told them, like I told Kansasland tire, to put the caster at 5 degrees if possible. They said they could only get 2.5 degrees (like Kansasland tire said) and that they didn't have big enough wheel weights to balance my tires. I'm thinking it's because I have quite a bit of suspension lift in the front already to match closely to my 3" lift rear coils and so they can't get the caster numbers very high. I didn't ask for the printout sheet, but I saw on the notes: "There is a 1.0 degree camber split" I should have asked what that meant.
rickashay
New member
Cool trip report. You'll get back there again to conquer all the trails yourself. Like you said, it could have been worse! We actually had to tow a "dead" Tacoma out of the bush before because he hydro-locked his engine. Had to drag the vehicle ~30kms of trail to get it out and the rear anchor truck's brakes actually lit on fire. Oh the stories...
Sucks about the diff though. It's interesting to hear the stories of diff carnage. I have buddies running 37's on 2nd Gen Tacoma's (8" diff) and they have been to Moab, Rubicon, and the Dusy without any issues. But then you see people break them on other obstacles with minimal effort.
Driving finesse is something that can take a lifetime to establish. Considering every type of terrain (wet snow, dry snow, ice, mud, rock, sand) etc. can have different ways of approaching obstacles. I was blown away by the amount of traction you have in Moab. Never would have guessed it until I drove it for myself!
Speaking of problems in Moab, ask me about this day:
20130507-IMG_2442.jpg by Addison Rickaby, on Flickr
Followed by this:
20130508-IMG_2464.jpg by Addison Rickaby, on Flickr
Good times on the trails.
Sucks about the diff though. It's interesting to hear the stories of diff carnage. I have buddies running 37's on 2nd Gen Tacoma's (8" diff) and they have been to Moab, Rubicon, and the Dusy without any issues. But then you see people break them on other obstacles with minimal effort.
Driving finesse is something that can take a lifetime to establish. Considering every type of terrain (wet snow, dry snow, ice, mud, rock, sand) etc. can have different ways of approaching obstacles. I was blown away by the amount of traction you have in Moab. Never would have guessed it until I drove it for myself!
Speaking of problems in Moab, ask me about this day:
20130507-IMG_2442.jpg by Addison Rickaby, on Flickr
Followed by this:
20130508-IMG_2464.jpg by Addison Rickaby, on Flickr
Good times on the trails.
