Is my XREAS trashed?

i have the superflex spring in the rear with stock shocks.. it rides fine.. but when i go over a speed bump or bump with a quick drop i do hear a bang in the rear from what must be the oem shocks extending to max drop. i'm gonna change the rear shocks anyways.. just unsure if i should do the front aldo or if i can get by with just doing the rear first then add them to the front later
 
Scott@Hightech said:
I'm going to somewhat disagree there, There is nothing wrong with spacer lifts. If the Spacer bolts on to the top of the strut Your not changing anything but the geometry of the suspension. The strut characteristics have not changed. Your suspension(sans changing other components) would be the same if you used a strut with a spacer or a longer strut. Performance would be different but that's only due to the valving in the struts.

In the rear, If you keep the factory shocks whats the difference between using a spring and a spacer on the factory spring? Nothing 2" is 2". However, if you lift it to the point that your topping out the shock, then its time to get longer shocks. Shocks are built to be able to handle abuse like that.

Case in point On my dodge ram i cranked the torsion bars all the way up, the front shocks are almost topped out they have about 1/2 of droop. It rides like crap but the shocks will likely not fail.

the readylift kit is probably the best spacer kit IMO. Huge benefits in that the factory ride is retained, as well as the ability to retain XREAS. Yes a 5100 would perform better but so will a Icon S2 suspension. Its only money.

OP if the shock itself is leaking and not the connection, your shock probably just happened to fail. Likely it wasn't the installer or the lift, rather just bad luck.
Click to expand...

Scott,

Wow! That's just wrong. Not partially right, not somewhat right - its wrong.

The issue isn't topping out, but compression. The suspension has both up travel and down travel from an at rest position. When you lift w/ springs either through swapping to a longer spring or by adding pre-load to the existing spring you have essentially changed the at rest set point for the suspension. You have traded at rest down travel for at rest up travel, but you haven't fundamentally altered the range of motion for the suspension.

At full compression the suspension goes back more or less to its factory position - this is the reason that so many people are disappointed when they lift their IFS vehicle for additional tire clearance and then find out when they put on the next size up tire from factory that it still rubs. Sure the tire may rub less than it did before you lifted it, because you traded at rest down travel for at rest up travel and the vehicle at rest/ in moderate bumps is sitting taller with more room in the wheel wells. When the suspension is compressed the tire goes back right where it would have if you hadn't lifted it and it rubs. The factory bump stops are what stops the suspension from compressing any further and the taller tire in the wheel well is now contacting the wheel well (just like it would have without a lift).

When you insert a spacer on top of the factory strut you have insured that when the suspension compresses fully you will no longer contact the factory bump stops, because there is a 2.5" spacer preventing the suspension from fully compressing. You haven't traded at rest down travel for at rest up travel, you have inserted 2.5" additional down travel and removed 2.5" up travel, thereby altering the factory suspension geometry.

At full compression of the strut w/ a spacer lift, the wheel is NOT in the same place it was prior to the spacer being inserted. The wheels up travel has been limited and the strut bottoms out (fully compresses) - but the factory bump stops are NOT contacting and NOT limiting the compression up travel - the shocks are. Shocks are NOT designed to handle this load (that's why you have bump stops to begin with) and they will crumple if a significant impact is taken by the front suspension. This isn't my personal theory - its been documented and proven many times.

Scott@Hightech said:
In the rear, If you keep the factory shocks whats the difference between using a spring and a spacer on the factory spring? Nothing 2" is 2". However, if you lift it to the point that your topping out the shock, then its time to get longer shocks. Shocks are built to be able to handle abuse like that.
Click to expand...

The difference, again, is in compression. A spacer applied to a coil spring is essentially only pre-loading the spring - it is NOT spacing the shock absorber. The shock absorber will NOT replace the bump stop as the limiter for up travel. It's possible the coil may bind w/ the spacer at full compression, but that's unlikely to cause damage in an occasional contact.

Yes, there are exceptions - adding small (1/4" - 1/2") trim spacers usually don't interfere with the normal factory bump stops contacting. Yes, there are aftermarket bump stops, some of the high end models for long travel suspension are adjustable and theoretically I guess you could swap out your factory bump stops for these and prevent compression damage to the shocks, but at that point I'm having a tough time understanding why someone wouldn't just lift it the right way to begin with.

David
 
[MENTION=6387]scott[/MENTION], just post the darn thing here and clutter this thread since OP has solved his problem already, lol. :jk:

Here is a nice article I found (which I think is written by Bilstein, so of course I'm sure it could be a wee bit biased) about how spacers change the suspension geometry to not so ideal positions: http://www.bilsteinus.com/fileadmin/user_upload/user_upload_us/pdfs/Bil_LevShks_WebArticle.pdf

The pictures help visualize what's going on and why spacers might put the OEM shock into a harmful position. Of course that would all depend on other factors built into the OE suspension, such as the bump stops on the frame and all that good stuff. If the bump stops on the frame stop the shock travel before the shock does, then I guess there's probably no harm in bottoming out the shocks, even with spacers?
 
Scott@Hightech said:
I completely disagree with you, PM inbound(at some point today) as to not clutter this thread.
Click to expand...

Scott,

Save yourself the key strokes. After the last exchange of PM's with you, I'm no longer interested in private exchanges with you. If you've got some facts - post 'em. If you feel like the thread is cluttered start a new one. I promise I'll read it. If you can compile facts and show me that I'm wrong, then I will have learned something new and I'll publicly apologize (you should try it some time).

David
 
Canazes9 said:
Scott,

Save yourself the key strokes. After the last exchange of PM's with you, I'm no longer interested in private exchanges with you. If you've got some facts - post 'em. If you feel like the thread is cluttered start a new one. I promise I'll read it. If you can compile facts and show me that I'm wrong, then I will have learned something new and I'll publicly apologize (you should try it some time).

David
Click to expand...

Sure, no problem. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Hence the reason I disagreed with you. I never said " You're wrong". Compiling facts won't produce any solid answer. There is a reason there are spacer kits still on the market and many people on this board run those kits. If they were dangerous, People wouldn't use them. Same argument with using wheel spacers vs aftermarket wheels. There are plenty of pros and cons on both options. Its up to the consumer to make the decision that best fits their needs.

That being said, I'm just a dumb mechanic, what do i know? Being that your much smarter and know whats best for everyone, Can i have your companies website? I would like to purchase these perfect parts. And then let me have the address to your shop so that you can install them for me. I want my truck in absolutly perfect performing shape.


Edit: Yes I do realize that this is "unprofessional." I chose to add a disclaimer in my sig, as i enjoy speaking my mind on forums( thats the point right?)
 
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Scott@Hightech said:
Sure, no problem. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Hence the reason I disagreed with you. I never said " You're wrong". Compiling facts won't produce any solid answer. There is a reason there are spacer kits still on the market and many people on this board run those kits. If they were dangerous, People wouldn't use them. Same argument with using wheel spacers vs aftermarket wheels. There are plenty of pros and cons on both options. Its up to the consumer to make the decision that best fits their needs.

That being said, I'm just a dumb mechanic, what do i know? Being that your much smarter and know whats best for everyone, Can i have your companies website? I would like to purchase these perfect parts. And then let me have the address to your shop so that you can install them for me. I want my truck in absolutly perfect performing shape.


Edit: Yes I do realize that this is "unprofessional." I chose to add a disclaimer in my sig, as i enjoy speaking my mind on forums( thats the point right?)
Click to expand...

Scott,

Wow! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you're not entitled to you own facts. Compiling the facts DID produce a solid answer - I detailed it in my earlier post:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/154807-my-xreas-trashed-2.html#post1533474

With regard to the ICON suspension - I too am entitled to my opinion and I gave it.

Scott@Hightech said:
That being said, I'm just a dumb mechanic, what do i know? Being that your much smarter and know whats best for everyone, Can i have your companies website? I would like to purchase these perfect parts. And then let me have the address to your shop so that you can install them for me. I want my truck in absolutly perfect performing shape.


Edit: Yes I do realize that this is "unprofessional." I chose to add a disclaimer in my sig, as i enjoy speaking my mind on forums( thats the point right?)
Click to expand...

As for this above - yes you are being extremely unprofessional. I could speculate on the reasons why, but I'll refrain.


David
 
Hopefully to get this thread back on track somewhat, may I ask, has anyone tested...at what point with a spacer lift would the shocks top out before the bump stops (for our 4runners specifically).

If I understand things correctly, our bump stops on the frame rails are what limit the up travel; and well, I'm sure there's got to be at least some buffer zone designed in by the Toyota engineers (ie. ~1" shock travel left while the LCA is compressed against the bump stop, this is just random numbers for arguments sake).

So let's just say you have 1" shock travel left after the bump stop are reached, then that would mean you can stick in a 1/2" spacer no problem, without the shock topping out at full compression, right?
 
eddiebx said:
Hopefully to get this thread back on track somewhat, may I ask, has anyone tested...at what point with a spacer lift would the shocks top out before the bump stops (for our 4runners specifically).

If I understand things correctly, our bump stops on the frame rails are what limit the up travel; and well, I'm sure there's got to be at least some buffer zone designed in by the Toyota engineers (ie. ~1" shock travel left while the LCA is compressed against the bump stop, this is just random numbers for arguments sake).

So let's just say you have 1" shock travel left after the bump stop are reached, then that would mean you can stick in a 1/2" spacer no problem, without the shock topping out at full compression, right?
Click to expand...

I don't know the numbers either, but your speculation is probably very close. Lots of people run serious rigs w/ 1/2" trim spacers w/o issue. There are also lots of people that run extended mid-travel set-ups w/ slightly longer shocks that don't get destroyed from big hits so the 1" sounds like a good guesstimate. I would also like to know what the real number is, but I've never heard of anyone measuring.

I'm not sure how you would effectively do that? Add a 1/4" trim spacer one at a time and keep compressing the suspension until you found the point where it is no longer contacting the bump stops? Also at issue is that there will likely be some flex in the control arms from a big hit even when contacting the bump stops. It might be possible (speculation) to damage the shocks in this scenario even though in a static test it appears as if the weight of the vehicle is resting on the stops.

David
 
The easiest way would be to simply remove the coil spring from the equation, install the strut and you can observe the range of motion relatively easily.
 
^^That was exactly what I was thinking, just take out the coil, put the strut back in and compress the LCA until it hits the bump stop, then push down on the strut's piston rod until the piston bottoms out. Of course only I think to do this after my suspension is back together, so someone else is going to have to volunteer, lol.
 
I really appreciate everyone's input in this thread and really didn't mean for it to turn into a pissing match. For that I apologize. Since the 20% off sale is going on I will just take the plunge and go with the ICONS. I really didn't think there was any harm running the Readylift and I know several people outside of the 4runner community have ran it with happy results. I had no idea I would be overextending the shocks even in normal day to day driving. I was under the impression that I would be overextending the shocks only during heavy offroading/flexing. Anyone know of any competant shops in the Bay Area that can do the install for me? Most shops I trust are in Southern California such as Demello, Outlaw Offroad, and Socal Supertrucks. Wish either of those 3 were closer. I would attempt the DIY route but I don't have the tools nor the space. Thanks and hopefully we can all continue to learn from one another.
 
PhoRunner said:
I really appreciate everyone's input in this thread and really didn't mean for it to turn into a pissing match. For that I apologize. Since the 20% off sale is going on I will just take the plunge and go with the ICONS. I really didn't think there was any harm running the Readylift and I know several people outside of the 4runner community have ran it with happy results. I had no idea I would be overextending the shocks even in normal day to day driving. I was under the impression that I would be overextending the shocks only during heavy offroading/flexing. Anyone know of any competant shops in the Bay Area that can do the install for me? Most shops I trust are in Southern California such as Demello, Outlaw Offroad, and Socal Supertrucks. Wish either of those 3 were closer. I would attempt the DIY route but I don't have the tools nor the space. Thanks and hopefully we can all continue to learn from one another.
Click to expand...


If I have given you the impression that you will be causing damage to your suspension in day to day driving w/ a spacer kit, I apologize - that's not accurate.

I don't know what caused your XREAS system to fail, I doubt it was due to the spacer lift unless you either took it off road or had something nasty happened on road like a severe pot hole hit. My comments were strictly addressing what will happen in off road/heavy impact situations. You said you were planning on off roading w/ your 4Runner - there is a good chance you will eventually damage your shocks w/ a spacer lift in that situation. You don't have to be "hard core" or banging hard in rocks to do it.

Picture a trail with a hill like this, except at the bottom instead of approaching level you are forced to hit it off camber, effectively forcing the majoring of the weight of the vehicle on to one side of your front suspension:

https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1454602_10201910897350857_1749882431_n.jpg

Most of the time, the damage is not catastrophic - the shocks are bent, not broken, often times the driver doesn't realize the damage has been caused until he drives it on the street and even then he thinks maybe he knocked the alignment out.

A quality lift won't put the suspension in a position to cause damage to the components that an otherwise stock suspension can handle unscathed.


Regardless, ICON suspensnion is a solid choice and I think you will be very happy with the results.

Regards,

David
 
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