Israel Palestine Conflict

[ndcent]

Beginning to educate myself on this topic.

So far as I can tell the Palestines made their bed when electing Hamas and what they're seeing is the direct result of their actions.

Israel defending their state that has ALWAYS existed seems fair and just.

Something I'm missing?

 

[Yoter]

But yes, it goes further back then that but you are correct.
What many don't know is that after Israel withdrew from Gaza (mainly due to international pressure)
We left behind millions of dollars of infrastructure, factories, green houses, homes etc...
We even had training programs to teach the Palestinians how to use these facilities.
After Hamas "won" the "democratic" elections by killing off their competitors (yes they went to weddings and shot any opposition they had) -eye witness
They decided it was unsuitable to leave any trace of Israel and destroyed all the infrastructure we had left.
And then continued to peruse (and fail at) their goal of "driving the jews to the sea"

Ps back on this forum as I am looking at a first gen tacoma or another 3rd gen if I can find a nice supercharged 5speed

 

[Yoter]

And this is the answer to all the BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA that will inevitably be posted here!!

As of July 17th:
"To anyone who criticizes Israel and the IDF in spite of their flawless conduct on the battle field I present to you THE FACTS:
Since the beginning of Operation Protective edge July 8th below is the tally.

HAMAS:
1497 Rockets have been launched at Israel

404 of these rockets NEVER reached Israel and landed in GAZA killing their own civilians!!

IDF:
2037 Targets have been eliminated were talking about buildings not people these were all bombings and missile boat attacks.

ONLY 237 people in Gaza (presumably terrorists) have been killed!
And of these 237 no one knows what percentage is from the 404 rockets that were launched by Hamas on their own people.

Thats only .12 persons per bombing and these are bombs that take out entire buildings.
Take a moment and try and appreciate the incredible effort and restraint it takes to kill so few people when fighting a terror organization deeply embedded within the civilian population and infrastructure. Just for reference we are talking about missile silos inside of schools, hospitals, and homes that are occupied with civilians."



- WATCH AMAZING VIDEO: "Hamas is Expert at Driving Media Agenda," British Commander Tells U.N. Debate - YouTube
Colonel Richard Kemp's speech to the United Nations: “Thank you, Mr. President. I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations, commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia, and participated in the Gulf War...
“Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.”

 

[ndcent]

Nope. Pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm sure you'll be accused of stirring the pot. But what the hell, the pot hasn't been stirred in awhile. :rant:

haha, no i don't have a dog in this fight. it's just current and pretty interesting, all the slant and spin. all the blood is on the hands of hamas it seems, alas I was driving downtown this weekend and past the state house was some several hundred people rallying for "free palestine." seems like they should distance themselves from hamas first, eh?

 

[fo' runnin']

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/iXRO1YFreNA?list=UUEHsSWvrGVSIA63OV3J6vhA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[MtnT4R]

^ not only was that video making almost totally baseless claims, I don't see how there is so much debate about what is amazingly clear cut; Hamas is deliberately targeting unarmed civilians to spread fear AND deliberately putting their civilian population at risk by using them as human shields for their rockets.

Using falsified maps as a propaganda tool must be convincing I suppose. But how do you swing that? The palestinians had their land stolen from them over the last 70 years so its ok for them to almost exclusively target civilians? I would love to know how the pro-palestine front is trying to spin that.
Besides, there are other maps...

 

[BrianSD_42]

Which video?

 

[Yoter]

As a US military vet, I do not understand why someone, a natural born American, would fight for another country's flag. Especially since the US is currently IN a war, the war in Afghanistan.

Hi Brian,
I actually am a US born and raised American citizen who served in the Israeli military. It is quite common and has been increasingly common in recent years. The first thing that should be clarified is that myself and other Americans who serve in the IDF have dual citizenship.
I cant speak for the masses but these were my reasons for serving in Israel:
All the Men in my family since the creation of Israel have served in the Military and the various wars (1948,1967,1973,Lebanon/Hezbollah,and Hamas).

In addition I have family in Israel who need my defense in order to live their daily lives, I also have family here in America and consider myself a proud American.
-Whether or not I serve in the American military I know my Mother can go to sleep at night here in California without any risk to her safety. A rocket is not going to fall on her home and the bus she is riding is not going to explode.
-For my family and friends in Israel I unfortunately cannot say the same, they live with these risks as a daily reality! Having buses and cafes and Night clubs blown up, having missiles rain down on them, being attacked by any means possible I have even seen a family which was hacked up with axes.
Most of my family lives in Northern Israel and You as an American Soldier I am sure know Hezbollah is no joke.


I am Jewish, specifically of Sephardic decent. My family can trace our history back to a long path of exile and refuge all the way back to Spain we speak Ladino.
Israel was the FIRST country to offer my family a citizenship or any recognition for about 500 years!
My family during that period of time lived in Turkey, Egypt, Georgia, and Iraq.
My grandfather after watching his brother, father, mother, and sister murdered in his village in northern Iraq for being Jewish (mind you this is the goal of religious Islam to convert or kill the world) fled at the age of 13 on foot walked first to Baghdad and then again fled baghdad on foot dressed as a Muslim to avoid being killed, he walked to Israel this was ~1935ish
My grandmother who was born in Turkey and lived with her family in Alexandria Egypt together with a large Jewish population who lived there with no official acknowledgment from the government. They had no ID no passports and the only records of their existence were records at the local Temple.
Mind you Alexandria was a thriving trade and culture center of the Middle East at the time and considered to a be a very progressive place.
Meanwhile my Grandfather who had done very well for himself once in Israel opened a shipping company and ended up in Alexandria, where he met my Grandmother etc..
A few years later they were thrown out of Egypt, he had his ships confiscated and they found themselves homeless. He was able to bribe a friend to smuggle him into France, and from there they were able to get into Israel.
My Father was raised in a Tent in the desert in Israel with no running water no education etc.. He lived side by side with Arab Israelis like many currently do in Israel.
Luckily my Family was not effected by the Holocaust yet we suffered enough living under Islam that we needed refuge. But being a Jew and knowing that only 70 years ago over 6 million (from a world total of 16 million) of my people were slaughtered like sheep, millions more were tortured, forced to work and young women were placed in military run rape-house brothels for their soldiers; now having the opportunity to stand up and fight in the name of my people, how could any man not.

In short I love America and will probably die here, I value America for all it has done for the world and especially for the Jewish people I feel as a Jew and unmeasurable debt to America for taking on Hitler and its support for Israel!

Israel needed and still needs my boots on the ground because its struggle is at the home its on the door step. My impact in terms of civilian lives saved, preventing children from being slaughtered was far greater there then it could be in the US military.
But mark my words, if the fight comes here, I will be by your side fighting for this incredible place that I am lucky enough to call home.

 

[MtnT4R]

Which video?

Sorry, that was in reference to fo' runnin's "Gaza: what you're not being told."

 

[Yoter]

Can we please keep this discussion to the expression of our ideas and sharing of facts. Rather then sharing propaganda films, there are hundreds of hours of propaganda films on both sides that we can post here and it would not be helpful to achieve any dialogue.

 

[Yoter]

I just watched "the gaza bombardment" it would take weeks to prove that everything in that video is bullshit so i am not even going to get started.
All I can say is get your information from multiple sources.
Israel has huge natural gas fields all along all of its coast line from the north to the south.
And the accents of people screaming heads down in the video are clearly Arabic accents, most arabs in the west bank speak hebrew to some degree. They are not uneducated or deprived they have their own government, military, police, they have universities and hospitals etc.... They get free electricity and water form Israel, many of them work in Israel and Israel has many programs for them to attend university for free in Israel especially in the medical field.

 

[DannyLlama]

Funny that someone just sent me this video today:

One Of The Most Beautiful, Accurate And True Cartoons Ever! A Masterpiece! | Globe Today

<iframe src="//player.vimeo.com/video/50531435" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/50531435">This Land Is Mine</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user2983855">Nina Paley</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

One word that comes to mind with all these wars – SAD.
Iraq
Syria
Ukraine
Israel/Palestine

God help all who lose a loved one PERIOD

 

[BrianSD_42]

All the Men in my family since the creation of Israel have served in the Military and the various wars (1948,1967,1973,Lebanon/Hezbollah,and Hamas).

This I can understand.

 

[Yoter]

I know I said no videos, but this isn't a documentary or cartoon this is simply the Son of one of the founding fathers and leaders of Hamas speaking about Israel/Palestinians. Its 15 minutes but speaks a lifetime of knowledge.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/LN0Zb7ody_U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[ndcent]

What on earth are these Palestinian Hamas terrorist cave people thinking?

Zero logic. Play with fire...

Any civilian death is on their hands.

 

[fo' runnin']

What do you guys make of this?

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x21rwe1" allowfullscreen></iframe><br /><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x21rwe1_israelis-cheering-during-airstrikes_news" target="_blank">Israelis cheering during airstrikes</a>

and this.....?

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/TkCBK4-5tRI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[fo' runnin']

I'm really not trying to stir the pot or cause a bunch of crap. I'm honestly trying to figure out what the real truth about all this mess is. I absolutely want to believe that Israel is defending itself against a horrible terrorist organization, but seeing these videos that I've posted makes me question that?

 

[Hepar]

I HIGHLY recommend the book The Lemon Tree for anyone looking for a little insight into the conflict between Israel and Palestine. It is a fictional story, but all of the historical facts are accurate.

In a nutshell, this is an issue that goes back hundreds of years. Who is right? Who is the rightful owner of land? I really don't know and can't say. But is it right to kill over? No.

 

[MtnT4R]

I'm really not trying to stir the pot or cause a bunch of crap. I'm honestly trying to figure out what the real truth about all this mess is. I absolutely want to believe that Israel is defending itself against a horrible terrorist organization, but seeing these videos that I've posted makes me question that?

I see where you're coming from, and the loss of life is tragic. I honestly believe that 99% of the people in that region just want to live their lives in peace and it sucks to see this happen again, but if I lived there and was under a constant threat of rocket attacks I'd probably be out there cheering too. When those air raid sirens go off the average Israeli has between 30 seconds to a minute to make it to the nearest shelter. After a few weeks of that I wouldn't begrudge them cheering on their own military to kick some terrorist ass and put a stop to all the random rocket fire.

Is anyone else blown away by the effectiveness of the Iron Dome system? If those rockets weren't being intercepted this whole conflict would be a LOT worse. A lot more Israelis would be dead and the IDF would be downright vicious in their ground invasion. The amount of restraint they are showing, giving notice for civilians to evacuate and calling their targets out ahead of time to minimize true civilian casualties is pretty amazing I think.

 

[DannyLlama]

I'm really not trying to stir the pot or cause a bunch of crap. I'm honestly trying to figure out what the real truth about all this mess is. I absolutely want to believe that Israel is defending itself against a horrible terrorist organization, but seeing these videos that I've posted makes me question that?

I see where you're coming from, and the loss of life is tragic. I honestly believe that 99% of the people in that region just want to live their lives in peace and it sucks to see this happen again, but if I lived there and was under a constant threat of rocket attacks I'd probably be out there cheering too. When those air raid sirens go off the average Israeli has between 30 seconds to a minute to make it to the nearest shelter. After a few weeks of that I wouldn't begrudge them cheering on their own military to kick some terrorist ass and put a stop to all the random rocket fire.

Is anyone else blown away by the effectiveness of the Iron Dome system? If those rockets weren't being intercepted this whole conflict would be a LOT worse. A lot more Israelis would be dead and the IDF would be downright vicious in their ground invasion. The amount of restraint they are showing, giving notice for civilians to evacuate and calling their targets out ahead of time to minimize true civilian casualties is pretty amazing I think.

Both good points.
I think of it like if someone was attacking my house, I would fight back. That is the logic behind both sides, both think it's their house.

In order to restore peace, violence has to stop from both ends. Violence on both sides is being fueled by big money from sources that have financial motives. That's the reality... Money makes the world go round, unfortunately.

If you take away the strong support of the U.S. to Israel and take away the strong support of Hamas from all the radical Arabs, there would be a lot less killing if any.

Pride is another issue here, pride is an animal that will never get full.
Arabs have a lot of it, it's brought them to where they are now. I would imagine Israeli's do too (assumption). Take pride away and you can work through any conflict.

I lived in the middle east (Syria) for 12 years and have lived here in my home (the U.S.) since than.

I have befriended atheists, Muslims, Israeli's, Christians, Buddhist etc. and I myself am Christian. The only way route to peace is through forgiveness, I struggle with this daily as we all do.. I'm not preaching Christianity, I am how ever preaching peace and understanding.

I have lived both sides and now my family has fled their home, forced out by Islamist extremists. It's easy to hate them, bash and support anger against an entire religion or region. That right there is the FUEL that keeps the unrest engine going.

Recently, I chose to be anti-radicalism, we all need to NOT support a body of people that Fuels greater violence.

I agree with [MENTION=82289]Yoter[/MENTION] .. Both side have tons of videos that is propaganda that is subjective. What would be awesome is to find videos of Israeli and Palestinian kids playing together, neighbors helping each other etc.. But that is hard to find, because who wants to watch a simple video like that, where people get a long, that's boring to the public.

End Rant :usa: