Jeep went diesel, Toyota next?!

[1engineer]

Elaborate

Or

Link me :keyboard:

Here is a link to Tier IV progress. I am speaking of non highway diesel regulations but they are equivalent to the 2010 Tier II on highway regulations, except many companies have gotten waivers for their on highway equipment. Imagine that. Anyway here is a link to a magazine I get: Clean Diesel Emissions and Equipment Update: Tier 4 Standards, Update and Future Considerations - OEM Off-Highway

 

[Reino]

False, and it has been for nearly 10 years now. Modern diesels are quiet and smooth. I prefer the smell of a diesel engine over a gas engine.

Diesels aren't just for towing - I've had an '04 and then an '06 Cummins Dodge that I had hopped up mildly, and they were awesome daily drivers. I'd take a modern diesel over a gas engine any day - torque is amazing and they're starting to make horsepower numbers to match....just look at the specs on the most recent models of HD pickups offered by the big three. And fuel economy is phenomenal too, especially with a DPF delete kit.

+1 to this. Now if only fuel prices would come down below gasoline, like it was in the 90's.

 

[Thai]

+1 to this. Now if only fuel prices would come down below gasoline, like it was in the 90's.

Probably not gonna happen...according to my very very superficial understanding of gas, we EXPORT diesel, IMPORT gasoline.

 

[Reino]

I've always thought we import crude oil by the barrel. Then it is refined into diesel (first) and then gas (second). According to my superficial knowledge as well.

I think the price of diesel has mostly to do with demand from heavy trucks and trains. Dunno.

 

[M1911]

Probably not gonna happen...according to my very very superficial understanding of gas, we EXPORT diesel, IMPORT gasoline.

We export both diesel and gasoline. U.S. fuel exports grow to historic levels - Los Angeles Times

 

[Hellamatic]

I've always thought we import crude oil by the barrel. Then it is refined into diesel (first) and then gas (second). According to my superficial knowledge as well.

I think the price of diesel has mostly to do with demand from heavy trucks and trains. Dunno.

Diesel prices went through the roof when "ultra low sulphur" became the requirement. The extra processing required to remove the sulphur is why diesel prices surpassed those of gas around '05 or '06

 

[SigSense]

Diesel prices went through the roof when "ultra low sulphur" became the requirement.

Did not know that, thanks for the info. I always wondered why it got more expensive than unleaded.

 

[Threev8s]

Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, and BMW are now marketing clean diesel technology in a variety of vehicles in the US. These are companies that sell refinement and would not market anything in this country that chatters or smokes. In addition to VW’s lineup, now Mazda is going to sell a diesel ‘6’ here. The majority of people in the US think diesels are loud and stinky, and many of the ones we see here are…busses, HD pickups, tractor trailers, etc. Companies like Toyota don’t see any reason to offer a diesel since market research indicates that most people think they are saving the planet by driving a hybrid and see diesels as dirty and archaic.

If the Jeep Grand Cherokee with a diesel sells well, others manufacturers will follow suit. So, I’m hoping for the sales success of the JGC diesel so that it trickles down to the other manufacturers. If Toyota decides to put a diesel in the 4Runner, I would be one of the first ones on the waiting list. To me it would be the perfect balance of torque, economy, and durability that would not be available from any other manufacturer.

 

[1engineer]

Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, and BMW are now marketing clean diesel technology in a variety of vehicles in the US. These are companies that sell refinement and would not market anything in this country that chatters or smokes. In addition to VW’s lineup, now Mazda is going to sell a diesel ‘6’ here. The majority of people in the US think diesels are loud and stinky, and many of the ones we see here are…busses, HD pickups, tractor trailers, etc. Companies like Toyota don’t see any reason to offer a diesel since market research indicates that most people think they are saving the planet by driving a hybrid and see diesels as dirty and archaic.

If the Jeep Grand Cherokee with a diesel sells well, others manufacturers will follow suit. So, I’m hoping for the sales success of the JGC diesel so that it trickles down to the other manufacturers. If Toyota decides to put a diesel in the 4Runner, I would be one of the first ones on the waiting list. To me it would be the perfect balance of torque, economy, and durability that would not be available from any other manufacturer.

You forgot to add major upfront cost and fuel prices that would negate any benefits a diesel would have unless you really really need torque.

 

[Curt Sauve]

What did you just say to me?!?! - Jeep Garage - Jeep Forum
Here is a thread form the Jeepgarge.org WK2 Problems and Trouble shooting forum, there are 62 pages worth of these.

 

[bigbwb]

I have to agree the new JGC has a more luxurious interior and exterior. I do value reliability hence me owning 5 4runners

What gets me is how can jeep offer tons of extra and standard features such as various suspensions, HID lights, nicer interior, more tech options, etc and still compete on price with a 4runner limited? Value of yen perhaps? Don't get me wrong I love my 4runner but I feel I'm missing out on all the goodies Jeep and other makes offer at a similar price.

For $40k + I would like to see better interior materials on dash, HID and led lighting, more tech features like blind spot monitoring etc, memory seats, more option packages, and various other items many other similar models offer. I'm not talking luxury trucks either.

Maybe I'm dreaming

 

[RainCityShecks]

I have to agree the new JGC has a more luxurious interior and exterior. I do value reliability hence me owning 5 4runners

What gets me is how can jeep offer tons of extra and standard features such as various suspensions, HID lights, nicer interior, more tech options, etc and still compete on price with a 4runner limited? Value of yen perhaps? Don't get me wrong I love my 4runner but I feel I'm missing out on all the goodies Jeep and other makes offer at a similar price.

For $40k + I would like to see better interior materials on dash, HID and led lighting, more tech features like blind spot monitoring etc, memory seats, more option packages, and various other items many other similar models offer. I'm not talking luxury trucks either.

Maybe I'm dreaming

Hmmm, this is an interesting post - I extensively test drove both the 4runner as well as the JGC - LTD 4x4 and was not impressed by the interior, felt inferior to the quality of the 4runner, also felt smaller inside. It did handle a bit better but if i want an SUV that handles well I'll get a Touareg TDI or MDX, both will smoke the JGC. Frankly, after my 2nd JGC test-drive I now refer to that vehicle as the Kia Grand Cherokee, build quality feels eerily similar to my sisters Kia, large valences and stuff just feels smashed together and not fluid.....Now, don't get me wrong, the JGC looks sick on the outside, but, that's really about it. I'm not even going to address reliability.

I think at times people get wrapped up in the gadgetry a vehicle offers (blind spot, entune, heated steering wheel, all that BS etc) as opposed the the actual nuts and bolts of the vehicle itself. Just my opinion - not trying to offend.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I have to agree the new JGC has a more luxurious interior and exterior. I do value reliability hence me owning 5 4runners

What gets me is how can jeep offer tons of extra and standard features such as various suspensions, HID lights, nicer interior, more tech options, etc and still compete on price with a 4runner limited? Value of yen perhaps? Don't get me wrong I love my 4runner but I feel I'm missing out on all the goodies Jeep and other makes offer at a similar price.

For $40k + I would like to see better interior materials on dash, HID and led lighting, more tech features like blind spot monitoring etc, memory seats, more option packages, and various other items many other similar models offer. I'm not talking luxury trucks either.

Maybe I'm dreaming

This isn't an excuse or a cop-out for Toyota here, but from my experience on working on many brands of cars and particularly European cars (lets face it ChryCorp milked MB for their tech and somehow managed to make it even LESS reliable than most European cars are in general...) these nifty gadgets are nothing but problems and hours for mechanics to leech off a owner.

This is how I see your 40K Statement in the eyes of me experience and knowing ChryCorp's Quality, reliability and the reliability, complexity, and over all propensity of European vehicle's bells and whistles to glitch up, break down, and over all go kaput:

I would like to spend $40k in repairs for the replacement "better interior materials" on dash, HID and LED lighting, more tech features like blind spot monitoring etc, memory seats, more option packages, and various other items many other similar models offer.

Guess how much ONE of those fancy HID/LED Combo lights cost? + Labor + Reprogramming the headlight module & BCM ONLY WITH a Factory Scantool (I don't even know what Chrysler is using as a scantool in the last decade they've gone through almost a half dozen I believe?)

Point being, I am confused as hell how Toyota justifies 40k for a slightly more stripped down 4th gen (feature wise, nix'd trans cooler, nix' auto start as standard, ect ect) with a nice exterior and a somewhat uncomfortable (it doesn't feel as comfortable as the layout of my 4th gen, mostly window sill height/button positioning, ect ect.) interior. The 5th gens look great and I think they're still a great TRUE off-road capable SUV (Body on Frame = SUV in my book, anything else is a cross-over,) but how the hell do they justify charging more than what my '04 V8 4WD Sport Edition cost brand new?!

But they at least have managed to somewhat, retain that Toyota quality (though to be honest this past few years has shown a steady decline in Toyota's standard of quality to just above everyone else's rather than their high standard they used to have, that's a whole different topic though...) versus the majority of other over engineered, poorly built, and/or overly tech laden SUVs. I think technology is great and all that, don't get me wrong; I love the nifty stuff you get in cars these days. What I don't like is that it seems that not even the Germans can make a car that doesn't need less than $2k in repairs before the vehicle even hits 25k on the odo...

 

[DannyLlama]

I have to agree the new JGC has a more luxurious interior and exterior. I do value reliability hence me owning 5 4runners

What gets me is how can jeep offer tons of extra and standard features such as various suspensions, HID lights, nicer interior, more tech options, etc and still compete on price with a 4runner limited? Value of yen perhaps? Don't get me wrong I love my 4runner but I feel I'm missing out on all the goodies Jeep and other makes offer at a similar price.

For $40k + I would like to see better interior materials on dash, HID and led lighting, more tech features like blind spot monitoring etc, memory seats, more option packages, and various other items many other similar models offer. I'm not talking luxury trucks either.

Maybe I'm dreaming

You know that's exactly what' I was trying to say.

I mean if Toyota maybe wants to offer that as a "Technology package" there are many of us techy guys that will buy it. Off road machine with all the bells and whistles & RELIABILITY - that's the ultimate package.

For example, the LC has all the tech goodies, why not introduce it to the 4R? That's all.

 

[M1911]

What I don't like is that it seems that not even the Germans can make a car that doesn't need less than $2k in repairs before the vehicle even hits 25k on the odo...

While that was certainly true of my wife's 2002 Mercedes C240, her 2010 C300 has been reliable, with nothing other than scheduled maintenance so far. Her 2010 has 30k miles on it.

That said, there is a reason that we purchased a Mercedes extended warranty -- if something does break, Mercedes parts and labor are outrageous.

 

[bigbwb]

You know that's exactly what' I was trying to say.

I mean if Toyota maybe wants to offer that as a "Technology package" there are many of us techy guys that will buy it. Off road machine with all the bells and whistles & RELIABILITY - that's the ultimate package.

For example, the LC has all the tech goodies, why not introduce it to the 4R? That's all.

I agree with all of you guys. The bells and whistles do add complexity and cost and often effect reliability. Like I said, I have no intention to give up my 4runner, just would be nice to have the ability to add some of these upgrades as Danny mentioned above. The fit and finish of the 4runners interior is well done, its the hard plastic EVERYWHERE that needs improvement.

Heck, I would pay a grand or two more for some better interior appointments and a better suspension setup. The Limited with KDSS or something else that improves on road handling would be nice without sacrificing offroad ability (which, admittedly I do very little of). The beauty of adjustable suspensions these days is great! Some lower end luxury cars are getting it, why not a $40k truck

All in all, at least are trucks stay out of the dealer/shop:thumb:

 

[Quentin]

I'm personally more excited about the prospect of Toyota's work with Ford on hybrid truck platforms. Regenerative braking, electric motor torque, and planetary gear train CVTs will give good driving characteristics in stop-and-go traffic, highway cruising, and off road. The transmissions are miles simpler than a traditional AT or CVT and it cuts out the requirement for an alternator and starter.

 

[M1911]

I'm personally more excited about the prospect of Toyota's work with Ford on hybrid truck platforms. Regenerative braking, electric motor torque, and planetary gear train CVTs will give good driving characteristics in stop-and-go traffic, highway cruising, and off road.

Oh yuck. Just yuck.

Hybrids end up having very non-linear braking and acceleration. It is very difficult to get the software to calibrated well enough that blending the two different motors and two different braking systems is seamless. As a result, when you press the brakes, sometimes you get more braking power than you expected and sometimes you get less. The same is true when pressing the accelerator. And both completely SUCK when you are offroad.

Hybrid systems also add significant weight and use up space. Batteries are large and heavy.

Please, just give me a diesel engine -- it is far more enjoyable to drive than any hybrid.

 

[nw_4Runner]

This thread, and the many others where features, quality of materials, and comparison to previous generations demonstrates why it's so hard to make the perfect car. People are individuals and their desires and what they value vary - it's the spice of life my friends.

But back to the OP - even if Jeep offered a diesel, it'd never had made my list - the cargo area is so sloped, it's simply too small for a family of four who also need to have a dog in tow. We took one look and almost walked out, but did end up test driving. Drove nice, but couldn't get past the lack-o-space.

 

[crunchcity]

My guess is before either Diezel or Hybrid you'll see an updated V6 with direct injection and/or other improvements since the competitors already have.

I remember reading an article where Toyota admitted they were putting more resources into hybrid development and fell behind a bit in that area but who knows lol.