KDSS(TE) vs Non KDSS (SR5)

[Thai]

I agree kdss gives more articulation.. maybe not as much as disconnecting it completely but still better than non-kdss

Adam, i don't know. Edmunds took a close look at it...and their suspension specialist (who is pretty good BTW) noted:

When rigid, the cylinder is merely a link [that] holds the pivot bushing in space, much like the rear stabilizer bar setup on a Ford Mustang. But here the open valve allows the cylinder to expand and contract at will, allowing that pivot bushing to float around and prevent the stabilizer bar from generating any torque."

Basically, yeah, KDSS effectively disconnects the sways completely. And this is probably why it only works on cross-axled situations and at low speeds.

If you had a SR5 and threw the sways (front and rear) in the trash, then you are left with a dangerous vehicle. On-road, it is obvious. Off-road, lacks of sways (esp. if you add long-arms) will also make it very tipsy on any sort of side slope. Yeah, it is great on cross-axled situations, but if your SR5 had to get a across a side slope at an angle (basically, your SUV leaning to one side), then this will surely make for some sweaty palms!!

With KDSS, transversing a side slope is easy...because sways are still connected. Thus, really, the only time KDSS shows its articulation magic is when you're cross-axled and a slow speeds...which is what you want!!

This is probably why Toyota designed it to be automatic, rather than manually activated by driver...activating only in certain situations that truly need it. A rollover can be disastrous for Toyota, both image and financially!! (The rear locker, on the other hand, needs to be manually activated...and a broken axle gearing is not life-threatening and probably not covered under warranty for Toyota to care.)

So, just talking off-road ONLY, KDSS provides increased effective wheel travel (front and rear) when you need it most...but without jeopardizing your safety (e.g. rollovers) in other off-road situations that need sways to be intact!

Then, you add in the clear on-road benefits.

So, what more do you want?!! Frankly, it is the PERFECT suspension technology. Now, you guys know why i am a big fan.

 

[phillyd2]

No clue why I was 'mentioned' since I never claim to know about or even care about KDSS. But never let it be said that when called I refused to serve.

 

[jam46283]

After reading most of this I feel implied to add that Toyota did not design KDSS nor invent it. That credit belongs to an Australian group. But with as much money as Toyota puts into R&D I find it unlikely they would add something to their SUVs suspension that didnt work as intended. Especially if they have to pay royalties to another company just to include it.

Imo as much as this forum preaches the search feature, you'd think someone would have already searched this

Source:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_Dynamic_Suspension_System

 

[1engineer]

We all know about the limits of the 4runner suspension. True.

KDSS allows for the anti-roll/sway bars to be effectively disconnected off-road. Does that increase overall suspension travel? Nope. You're right. BUT, that does NOT mean that it does not help.

See the picture in the prior page in my post. Taking out the sway bar up front increases compression 3 inches. Droop likely increased too. Both front and rear suspension effectiveness increase significantly. How significant? Well, that all depends on what your expectations are. For me, a 3" increase compression is pretty significant. Now, if you were expecting long-arms travel, then yeah, you would be disappointed...but that also shows your lack of understanding of the 4runner suspension!

RTI scores reflect the more flexy suspension with KDSS. RTI score of 100 difference is significant, esp. when tested by FourWheeler under the same conditions and using the same ramp, tools, etc..

Who says that KDSS is better than locker????? But, what does KDSS-equipped 4runners come with as standard equipment?? I believe that REAR LOCKER is standard, no? Why limit yourself then?

Remember, KDSS improves BOTH on-road and off-road. Can long arms do that? Can Bilstein 5100 do that? I doubt it...maybe I guess if you throw enough money at it! But, by that time, you might as well bought a Land Cruiser instead!

Who is talking about driver or fatties or blah blah? We're comparing VEHICLES...comparing TECHNOLOGY. If we're not talking about that, then I would bet that my Prius with me in it can beat a Land Cruiser up a rockledge if my deceased grandma was driving the Land Cruiser! In other words, it serves no purpose.

Does KDSS make you a worst driver?? That's news to me. You might as well throw the rear locker into that category too! Let me guess, the TRUE off-roader want their diffs to be OPEN, want no transfer case, want highway tires...because, that is what REAL TALENTED off-roaders want...otherwise, it ain't a challenge!

Yeah, and you think that SR5 or Limited will make it across that cross-axled part of the trail (in your picture above) any easier??!! But, I would bet that your TE had less rocking than SR5!! Again, you're missing the bigger picture...you're concentrating on the small parts here and there.

KDSS is NOT the answer to every off-road challenge. Not sure where that idea came from. Like a locker or A-TRAC, it is an additional tool to help. That is all. And it is better to have it, than not. Do you not agree??? You have the increased effective travel, while still having a rock solid on-road handling. Never forget the reason why KDSS was designed! Best of both worlds.

Geez [MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION], are you STILL beating this dead horse? How many different ways can you make the same post? No wonder you have posted 14,000+ times. You say the same thing over and over and over and over.

You keep preaching real world and poo-poohing any comparisons or examples with a follow up post full of question marks and exclamation points. English class should have taught you that one of these at the end of a sentence is enough. Again, to summarize:

KDSS is better than a stock SR5 at handling the curves on road. Good enough?

Off road is a different story. You cite credible sources and I'm sure they did their best to test such things as RTI scores. Now let's talk real world a minute.

1. In my off roading, I rarely reach speeds over 10 mph, I am NOT going up over ledges or dropping off of Moab style rocks. Most of my off roading consists of usually wet grass, weeds, dirt, gravel and mud, although I stay away from deep mud pits. Is KDSS better in my application? No, of course not. I did not get stuck with my SR5 and I have not gotten stuck with my TE. I have not noticed any difference in performance or ride quality from one model to the other. In my application, KDSS IS NOT BETTER OFF ROAD THAN A STOCK NON KDSS EQUIPPED VEHICLE. I put that in all caps so you would not get any misunderstanding. This is real world application Thai. Chances are that in my off roading I can take a 1979 Oldsmobile Cutlass most places that I take my 4Runner. I don't even come close to pushing the limits.

2. I absolutely agree that KDSS will outperform a Non KDSS equipped vehicle in a specific off road condition. I don't go to those trails so again, it negates having KDSS give me an advantage. If I were to go and run those trails, I would modify my vehicle to better handle that terrain. Most people would. Again, real world application.

You speak sometimes of "real world applications," other times purely technical differences and you always try to ridicule any poster that does not see things Thai's way, even when your way keeps changing and an example of this is both of these KDSS threads.

You bust on [MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION] for being a parts guy and you bust on me for not seeing YOUR answer. Truth is both Harper and I and many others here do our best to try to help the 4Runner community and answer questions and offer solutions to their challenges based on our experience. What do you bring to the table besides an antagonistic and combative attitude?
[MENTION=66300]Intruder[/MENTION] lives off road. I would much rather take his vast real world experience with vehicles of all types off road rather than you. At least he posts in a clear, concise manner on a topic.

Your a smart guy Thai what's it gonna be? Do you want to discuss the real world applications of KDSS or the esoteric design parameters of KDSS and how you can get a few more inches on a ramp in a static condition. Totally different subjects.
Post on.

 

[Intruder]

But with as much money as Toyota puts into R&D I find it unlikely they would add something to their SUVs suspension that didnt work as intended.

It definitely does work as intended. It just isn't the magical unicorn puking rainbows that some people would like to have you believe.

 

[Thai]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]

Wow, so, you're now insulting how i post/write. That's sad.

When was this thread about YOU and YOUR OFF-ROADING?? You're kinda self-centered, aren't you? When did i EVER post anything about the type of off-roading that you do?

Yeah, you're right...my Prius can go where you go. Was that the point? No. WTF?! Most folks don't give a rats ass what you do with your vehicle. Is it my fault that you bought a vehicle that you're not using to its potential?

I have NO IDEA what you're trying to get at. Who cares about you? Is this a desparation post by changing the subject???? You do that often...and i called you out last time. And in your PM to me (initiated by you), it is pretty clear that you were wrong.

The above video posted by OP shows new REAL-WORLD evidence to back up EVERYTHING that i have written...and pretty much makes YOUR argument extremely foolish. Sorry. If this hurts your engineering ego, then i don't really care. Get it?

When did my ways change? I talk about technical/theory and real world. Was this not obvious to your engineering mind? I even show you pictures, remember? WTF are you talking about? Are you just blowing hot air trying to look intelligent or covering your tracks? Really?!

1engineer, i bust your balls and harper7's because you guys spread FALSE information about KDSS and its effectiveness off-road. Nothing more, nothing less. Again, was that not clear? If not, then NOW YOU KNOW. If i wrote something wrong, then i expect people to burst my balls too.

Are you suggesting that folks like me should back down when crap spills out of your mouth? That's stupidity.

What i bring to the table...FACTS to back up what i say. As an engineer, you totally misspoke and misunderstood KDSS. That much is clear. Now, you want to play the innocent bystander? That's laughable...and pathetic.

That video above...those pics earlier...both of which clearly shows A vs. B comparisons...was Edmunds explanation too technical for you? As an engineer, it's not good enough? The videos and pictures of real life...that's not good enough? The technical explanation by an independent suspension specialist (Edmunds) is not good enough? FourWheeler is not good enough?

I don't know...as an engineer, i would have expected more from you...instead of this trash that you're spilling out to cover your misunderstandings.

Your choice...want to be honest like how you were via PM with me OR you want to try to show me up on the forum like a kid? You're a smart guy.

 

[Thai]

It just isn't the magical unicorn puking rainbows that some people would like to have you believe.

Who said it was?

 

[Stifler]

2012 Subaru Outback 2.5i Limited
2010 Toyota Prius V with Adv. Tech Pkg.
2008 Toyota Sienna Limited 2wd

wait... which one of these vehicles has KDSS?

 

[Thai]

wait... which one of these vehicles has KDSS?

All of them do. I use my kids crayon to write KDSS on all my vehicles! :rockon:

With your logic, does that also mean that SR5 and Limited owners should shut their mouths too on the subject? Actually, now that you bring it up...you're absolutely right! If only people with KDSS can discuss it, then there would NOT be any discussion at all. Weird. Only the SR5 and Limited owners b!tch and moan about KDSS and how bad it is. (1engineer is the sole exception...when he had SR5, he badmouthed KDSS like crazy! Now, i guess that he is stuck with his past arguments!)

Do you have KDSS on your SR5? Want crayons?

 

[jam46283]

Hahahah too true.

 

[eddiebx]

[MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION], do you ever take a step back and look at what you post, and then look at what you criticize others for doing?

Earlier, I jokingly made a post about a funny example where your precious evidence of why KDSS is "better" might not show a difference given the right circumstances; and instead of responding intelligently to it, you go call me ridiculous and start making even more ludicrous statements in response.

I figured if I just let it go, you'd be happy and that'll be the end of the story; but NOPE. Practically a whole week later, you still call me back into this when you finally found some new "studies" to post on here and beat your chest to. For what it's worth, I really didn't even bother reading/watching whatever you posted.

At this point, do you think I or many other people really even care anymore who's "correct"? I just can't believe how much it bothers you to not have the last word on something so silly.

I know you posted either in this thread or another thread about how you're only here to correct the wrong people and to make sure there's no misinformation posted on here, "for the good of the community". But it sure seems like you're only harping at this constant for the good of your own ego. And quite frankly the more you keep beating a dead horse the more it's going to look like that.

To sum up the gist of what it seems like you are trying to beat into all of our heads is that: #1 KDSS is "better" than non-KDSS in all the examples you've shown us, and #2 examples of where KDSS is at best equal just simply do not exists. I mean come on man, let it go...

 

[1engineer]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]

Wow, so, you're now insulting how i post/write. That's sad.

When was this thread about YOU and YOUR OFF-ROADING?? You're kinda self-centered, aren't you? When did i EVER post anything about the type of off-roading that you do?

Yeah, you're right...my Prius can go where you go. Was that the point? No. WTF?! Most folks don't give a rats ass what you do with your vehicle. Is it my fault that you bought a vehicle that you're not using to its potential?

I have NO IDEA what you're trying to get at. Who cares about you? Is this a desparation post by changing the subject???? You do that often...and i called you out last time. And in your PM to me (initiated by you), it is pretty clear that you were wrong.

The above video posted by OP shows new REAL-WORLD evidence to back up EVERYTHING that i have written...and pretty much makes YOUR argument extremely foolish. Sorry. If this hurts your engineering ego, then i don't really care. Get it?

When did my ways change? I talk about technical/theory and real world. Was this not obvious to your engineering mind? I even show you pictures, remember? WTF are you talking about? Are you just blowing hot air trying to look intelligent or covering your tracks? Really?!

1engineer, i bust your balls and harper7's because you guys spread FALSE information about KDSS and its effectiveness off-road. Nothing more, nothing less. Again, was that not clear? If not, then NOW YOU KNOW. If i wrote something wrong, then i expect people to burst my balls too.

Are you suggesting that folks like me should back down when crap spills out of your mouth? That's stupidity.

What i bring to the table...FACTS to back up what i say. As an engineer, you totally misspoke and misunderstood KDSS. That much is clear. Now, you want to play the innocent bystander? That's laughable...and pathetic.

That video above...those pics earlier...both of which clearly shows A vs. B comparisons...was Edmunds explanation too technical for you? As an engineer, it's not good enough? The videos and pictures of real life...that's not good enough? The technical explanation by an independent suspension specialist (Edmunds) is not good enough? FourWheeler is not good enough?

I don't know...as an engineer, i would have expected more from you...instead of this trash that you're spilling out to cover your misunderstandings.

Your choice...want to be honest like how you were via PM with me OR you want to try to show me up on the forum like a kid? You're a smart guy.

Your response was exactly as I expected. Have a good day Thai.

 

[Stifler]

All of them do. I use my kids crayon to write KDSS on all my vehicles! :rockon:

With your logic, does that also mean that SR5 and Limited owners should shut their mouths too on the subject? Actually, now that you bring it up...you're absolutely right! If only people with KDSS can discuss it, then there would NOT be any discussion at all. Weird. Only the SR5 and Limited owners b!tch and moan about KDSS and how bad it is. (1engineer is the sole exception...when he had SR5, he badmouthed KDSS like crazy! Now, i guess that he is stuck with his past arguments!)

Do you have KDSS on your SR5? Want crayons?

Well I didnt insert my opinion either way I asked you a simple question to which you couldnt respond like a grown up. I didnt think you knew wtf you were talking about... now I KNOW that you dont

 

[Thai]

[MENTION=85512]eddiebx[/MENTION] [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] Point taken. Let me ask you this...why is it that the same folks who bash KDSS continues to do so, thread after thread after thread? This ain't the first KDSS thread...yet, it is the same people over and over again making the same ridiculous arguments. And you ask why i try to make my point as crystal clear as possible? Who initiates these exchanges? Look back...take your own advice. My initial posts in all these KDSS threads...were they threatening? Were they even wrong?

 

[crunchcity]

Only the SR5 and Limited owners b!tch and moan about KDSS and how bad it is.

I don't think everyone is like that and some just don't care enough to argue about it. I'm sure the Trail owners without the KDSS option are part of this exclusive group as well.

There is a strong psychological factor to defend what you own and identity with those that agree with your views and made the same trim level/option purchase choice on forums.

Hence the varying trim level/sub-cliques.

I would drive any trim level 4Runner with any option personally. I would never try to disparage anyone with a different trim level or not having the same options. It's like a bunch of lemmings sometimes lol.

 

[Thai]

Well I didnt insert my opinion either way I asked you a simple question to which you couldnt respond like a grown up. I didnt think you knew wtf you were talking about... now I KNOW that you dont

Was my answer not obvious? How about you? Do you have KDSS on any of your vehicles?

 

[Clay Tucker]

Clay tucker

I AM SOOOO GAAAAAAYYYyyyy

 

[Clay Tucker]

Sorry guys that wasn't me I'm not actually that gay just a little

 

[eddiebx]

[MENTION=85512]eddiebx[/MENTION] [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] Point taken. Let me ask you this...why is it that the same folks who bash KDSS continues to do so, thread after thread after thread? This ain't the first KDSS thread...yet, it is the same people over and over again making the same ridiculous arguments. And you ask why i try to make my point as crystal clear as possible? Who initiates these exchanges? Look back...take your own advice. My initial posts in all these KDSS threads...were they threatening? Were they even wrong?

Come on Thai, let's just move on plz :nod:

 

[harper7]

Wow ,get on the forum and see Thai must really love me to mention me that many times! lol

I don't have a grudge against KDSS

[MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION]......Every link you provide and quote is from a $60-80k Lexus or Land Cruiser and not a $40k 4Runner TE? We've already established from another thread that their KDSS systems are different in the that the TE's line have to be disconnected to bleed them and the LC's have a simple bleed valve.

From your own link on the Lexus GX did you happen to noticewhat Four Wheeler said...since I'm the "parts guy"
This computer-controlled setup gives the GX the ability to soften its roll stiffness in uneven terrain. It operates by using hydraulic cylinders that are attached to each side of each antiroll bar and linked by a pressure-sensing hydraulic valve. During cornering, when both the front and rear cylinders on one side are compressed, the antiroll bars stay active and reduce body roll. However, when uneven terrain is encountered and only one cylinder is compressed, the antiroll bars disengage. And when one wheel deflects upwards, the system puts downward pressure on the other wheels. This dramatically increases the amount of articulation available from the GX's suspension.

That would make 4 hydraulic cylinders and how many does a TE have? TE's only have 2 on the drivers side and in place of the other 2 they have solid links attached to the frame to use as a fulcrum point to raise or lower each side.Do you think there would be a difference in articulation maybe?

All I want to do is find the facts and not some marketing BS that you provide on high end Lexus's and Land Cruisers. I provided a pic of a KDSS TE on a 30 degree RTI ramp and didn't really hear the results clearly as I said. 20 Degree ramp scores would be higher I'm sure.When Baertrax announced it at the raffle he mumbled it was a 2010 silver 4Runner that had the low score that won the consolation prize and then called his name,which was wierd because his is mag gray . I pm'd Tengu and he said it was 1'10" on the ramp and yes he has KDSS and as far as he can tell it is and was working and never had any problems with it.Here's another pic and you can clearly see the skid for the hydraulic line on the bottom of the frame to know it indeed has KDSS.

As far as TE having more articulation then a SR5 or LE ...I 'll repeat myself that there are physical limits to a IFS/ 4 link suspension and they are the same on all models if they have the same aftermarket suspension components. Show me a photo or link to a KDSS TE (not a LEXUS or LC)with the wheels stuffed as I've provided a bunch to show what the limits are on mine. I had to extend the bump stops in the rear and now I'm getting rubbing inside the wheel well on top on the front wheels so have to fix that by shimming that bump stop too.

I in no way think KDSS is a gimmick and as I said it greatly improves onroad handling while keeping offroad performance. If it was an option for my Limited when I ordered it . I definitely would have checked that box! I originally ordered a TE and then changed to the Limited because it had the Torsen center diff and that was something I personally valued more then the KDSS and part time.

And the link with the Prado 150's is outdated as they now use their newer technology AVS not KDSS as well as on the Lexus LX as of last year.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThsN4pTDZAo


Last 2 sentences......http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analysis/toyota-hopes-dynamic-suspension-boosts-land-cruiser

Independent, double wishbones with coil springs, adaptive variable rate shock absorbers with three ride comfort levels and ball-joint mounted anti-roll bar .......Toyota Prado specifications Kakadu Turbo Diesel