KDSS vs Non-KDSS?

[empty403]

http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/2014-Toyota-TRD-Pro-Series-4runner-PLACEMENT2-626x382.jpg[/IMG]

The Pro doesn't have KDSS

 

[Jetboy]

The Pro doesn't have KDSS

I think you need to read it again.

And look at the picture. Here's another angle. TRD Pro had KDSS before it didn't have KDSS... You'd have to ask Toyota why they removed it before it went on sale. It was originally was optioned below a Trail Premium but above a base Trail. So removing KDSS made sense to keep the budget in line as a halfway to premium Trail edition with special paint. Keep in mind that in other markets KDSS is a minimum of $12,000 upgrade over the base model to get to the options that include it.

 

[empty403]

I think you need to read it again.

And look at the picture. Here's another angle. TRD Pro had KDSS before it didn't have KDSS... You'd have to ask Toyota why they removed it before it went on sale.

When the "Pros" come into the country, I don't believe they have the Pro wheels, badging, etc. And likely they took an OR model and made it look like a Pro or that could've been a one off.

 

[volpe30]

If you dont go offroad, the KDSS will probably be a benefit, but its actually a limiting factor out in the dirt.

Other than upgrading to KO2 tires in stock size I have a stock trail with KDSS. I’ve done the Utah Backcountry Discovery Route and countless challenging trails all over Idaho and Oregon. Never been hampered by KDSS. To say the KDSS equipped 4Runner is any less capable off road is not an accurate statement.


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[Jetboy]

When the "Pros" come into the country, I don't believe they have the Pro wheels, badging, etc. And likely they took an OR model and made it look like a Pro or that could've been a one off.

There were a handful of the first ones that they used for marketing that had KDSS. They were the first "Pro" models that they introduced at events. The 2015 Toyota Brochure also shows the Pro with KDSS - but the ones that went on sale were sans KDSS. https://cdn.dealereprocess.net/cdn/brochures/toyota/2015-4runner.pdf They were also not offered with a sunroof until 2017 or 18. I don't know if they have heated mirrors and/or heated windshields like the Premium models. Otherwise they are very similar to a trail premium.

 

[MatraBlue]

I think you need to read it again.

And look at the picture. Here's another angle. TRD Pro had KDSS before it didn't have KDSS... You'd have to ask Toyota why they removed it before it went on sale. It was originally was optioned below a Trail Premium but above a base Trail. So removing KDSS made sense to keep the budget in line as a halfway to premium Trail edition with special paint. Keep in mind that in other markets KDSS is a minimum of $12,000 upgrade over the base model to get to the options that include it.

So why didn’t they offer it as an option on the TRD Pro??? Why is KDSS only offered as an option on the Trail/Off Road 4 Runner?

 

[Jetboy]

So why didn’t they offer it as an option on the TRD Pro??? Why is KDSS only offered as an option on the Trail/Off Road 4 Runner?

You'd have to ask Toyota. My guess is money. KDSS is expensive. They didn't want the TRD Pro to cost more than a Limited. So they axed the KDSS option. I'm not sure why else they'd skip it.

It's easy to make KDSS feel just like a non-KDSS model on the road. You can simply fit it with a smaller diameter sway bar. If you did that it would act just like the other models except under 12mph where you'd have even more flex. The higher speed benefits of a softer sway bar don't really argue in favor or against having KDSS. It works either way. That's why I tend to think the reason was cost. But I really don't know. It's just a guess.

I also question why no KDSS on the Limited. It's standard on the GX460 and top spec Prado models as well as the LC200. Why offer it on the Trail, but not on the Limited? I would have bought a Limited if it were an option on the Limited. The 4Runner product options seem like they just flipped a coin sometimes. Why no auto headlights on the Premium? The dash obviously was made for it and even wired to a blank plastic plug where a light sensor should be - I put the Camry sensor in mine so I get half the functionality. It's hard to understand the decisions they make sometimes.

 

[CoolMax]

If you dont go offroad, the KDSS will probably be a benefit, but its actually a limiting factor out in the dirt.

"For superior off-road handling..."

 

[e60ral]

You'd have to ask Toyota. My guess is money. KDSS is expensive. They didn't want the TRD Pro to cost more than a Limited. So they axed the KDSS option. I'm not sure why else they'd skip it.

It's easy to make KDSS feel just like a non-KDSS model on the road. You can simply fit it with a smaller diameter sway bar. If you did that it would act just like the other models except under 12mph where you'd have even more flex. The higher speed benefits of a softer sway bar don't really argue in favor or against having KDSS. It works either way. That's why I tend to think the reason was cost. But I really don't know. It's just a guess.

I also question why no KDSS on the Limited. It's standard on the GX460 and top spec Prado models as well as the LC200. Why offer it on the Trail, but not on the Limited? I would have bought a Limited if it were an option on the Limited. The 4Runner product options seem like they just flipped a coin sometimes. Why no auto headlights on the Premium? The dash obviously was made for it and even wired to a blank plastic plug where a light sensor should be - I put the Camry sensor in mine so I get half the functionality. It's hard to understand the decisions they make sometimes.

It's all just model differentiation, if the limited had a locker or KDSS it would impact sales of the trail in the same way a trail would impact sales of the limited if it had a center diff. Same with why they don't offer creature comforts standard on most other suvs, that would impact highlander sales.

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[keller]

When i was looking at a new car, i test drove a trail premium without KDSS and left the dealership having almost dismissed the 4 runner all together. It felt fat and wallowed through corners and I drove a 1 ton Dually megacab dodge to the dealership for the test drive...

I liked the Idea of the 4 runner so i did a bit more research, heard about KDSS and it turned out that the local place had one. It is night and day. I would not and did not consider the 4runner without it.

Having done 2 Full suspension replacements my self, i can say installing a lift can be problematic IF you have remote reservoirs. I had to fabricobble a mounting plate for the Drivers side when i installed my BP-51's as the stock location is occupied with KDSS plumbing coming over the top of the frame rail. Other than that is supporting the cylinder with a ratchet strap before you start tearing shit apart. Big Woop.

The only other issue i can think of installing sliders. You need to remove a few more bolts and you have to slide the slider vertically into place to go under the plumbing.


Regarding ground clearance there is no difference. I have a Full RCI AL skid kit on it and the only difference is the front skid has cut outs for the swaybar to poke through.

The only viable concern that i will cop to is that dealers in the Texas area do not know what they are doing. They are very rare in Texas (the only other KDSS truck was all the way in Baton Rouge and nothing else showed up for the region) so conversations with service techs have not been encouraging. "Oh!, so thats what that is" does not fill me with confidence...

 

[1996_Valencia_Owen]

As detailed in the video, KDSS allows like 1"+ more downwarrd suspension articulation as well

 

[JpAdct]

So why didn’t they offer it as an option on the TRD Pro??? Why is KDSS only offered as an option on the Trail/Off Road 4 Runner?

My pea brain theory is it’s because of the TRD Pro components they add at port. As I understand it, the badges, grill, wheels, suspension, etc is all added at port. By eliminating KDSS, it makes the suspension swaps that much quicker and easier (time is money???).

But what do I know? I’m too scared to even drive a KDSS model because I hear they are that good.


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[MatraBlue]

It's all just model differentiation, if the limited had a locker or KDSS it would impact sales of the trail in the same way a trail would impact sales of the limited if it had a center diff. Same with why they don't offer creature comforts standard on most other suvs, that would impact highlander sales.

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You might be right, but it makes no sense given that most people on this forum contend that KDSS is more valuable on-road than off-road.

First, I don’t think the Japanese are stupid or flip coins to determine what systems to make available on different versions of the same vehicle. Second, the SR 5 and Limited are clearly vehicles that are viewed as more on-road vehicles than the Trail/Off Road. So why does a street oriented system only get offered on an option package characterized as a more off-road capable model??

While we are on the subject, who makes larger anti-roll bars (especially rear) for 5th generation 4Runners?

 

[e60ral]

well they gave the limited X-REAS, which is arguably a better concept for on-road performance. KDSS is not a street-oriented product, it just happens to also perform well on-road during cornering by nature of the larger ant-sway bar they are able to use

 

[Jetboy]

It's really a swaybar disconnect - only better. So it should be both better on and off road. In stock form it excels at both functions. If they were just looking for highway performance I think you'd just buy a Highlander. It's far better for highway use in almost every way. So I think they're all tilted toward having more utility function including offroading.

In my opinion the rational marketing lineup would be SR5 as a base model. Like a Prado GX. Then you could add a "Trail" package for that includes the trail stuff. Like a GXL. You could only add a Premium package to the Trail - so you would then get the premium stuff - heated mirrors/windshield, softex, etc.

Then you'd have the TRD Pro that would be a Premium plus Trail package plus Fox suspension and KDSS. And the 4.6 v8. Then it's a real performance version.

(This doesn't exist in the Prado series - hard to pretend you're going fast with a 2.8L diesel that goes 0-60 in 12 seconds...)

And the top model would be a Limited - that would be AWD and include KDSS, but ditch the Xreas. Then you'd get rid of xreas entirely and have a more rational lineup of vehicles. The Limited price would go up to cover the KDSS system costs and you could then offer a Limited with air suspension too. Or maybe make it standard with active height control. Like the Kakado. I'd probably toss the v8 in there as well.


That is how I think a rational marketing plan would look. That's what the rest of the world generally sees. BUT - about half of all 150's are sold in the USA. So maybe we justify more. Australia for example only sells about 15,000 per year. Or a month or so of USA sales. So maybe that's why we have so many more options. We buy 10 times as many. Instead of 4 models, we have 7-10 depending on how you view the GX460 versions as one or multiple.

 

[sandcrawler]

So why didn’t they offer it as an option on the TRD Pro??? Why is KDSS only offered as an option on the Trail/Off Road 4 Runner?

My pea brain theory is it’s because of the TRD Pro components they add at port. As I understand it, the badges, grill, wheels, suspension, etc is all added at port. By eliminating KDSS, it makes the suspension swaps that much quicker and easier (time is money???).

But what do I know? I’m too scared to even drive a KDSS model because I hear they are that good.

it's likely a combination of factors: marketing (product mix & differentiation); cost (margins & product mix); and practicality (port-installed appearance package).

the discussion and understanding of KDSS on this forum has only gotten weirder as the platform has aged, ownership has grown, and, frankly, the TRD Pro was introduced. mostly because i think many feel "Pro" should (rightfully) mean "best"... so if Toyota's "Pro" model doesn't include KDSS, then by (seemingly) logical extension it can't be "best." i can follow the superficiality of that conclusion, but it betrays a lack of broader understanding of the interplay between engineering, marketing, and accounting.

final thought i feel is applicable here: i've always found it a hoot that the "Pro" doesn't even include the long-available, bolt-on TRD CAI which could easily be added at port. why doesn't Toyota include it? because they don't have to.

 

[Jetboy]

The question that also sticks in my mind - why isn't there a TRD Pro Land Cruiser? It's the best platform they sell in north america for go-fast desert style use. Toss a set of 35's on it with some Fox bypass shocks and it would sell at a price in the same range as a Raptor. It's a well proven race platform that already has won the Baja 1000.

Plus you could probably take 15 out in the desert and not return with 10 of them having bent frames (cough raptor).

 

[fr0gman]

Kdss

i would vote against the KDSS!
i just installed icon stage 7 shocks and the KDSS makes noises the the non
KDSS 4runner of my friend with the same kit and non KDSS is completely quiet.

 

[Signess]

i would vote against the KDSS!
i just installed icon stage 7 shocks and the KDSS makes noises the the non
KDSS 4runner of my friend with the same kit and non KDSS is completely quiet.

I am not an expert, but I thought it was taboo to go over 3" on KDSS vehicles?

 

[Jetboy]

I am not an expert, but I thought it was taboo to go over 3" on KDSS vehicles?

Going over 3" without also going to long travel doesn't make much sense for any model. The ride is going to be crap and you'll have very limited suspension down travel.

KDSS limits suspension travel in the rear mostly - so long travel and KDSS generally don't mix.

I'm not totally sure why you'd choose to spend $6-8k on an ICON stage 7 kit rather than get a Camburg/allpro/?? +2 LT kit plus King/Fox, but everyone has their own choices they make. If you're going that route you're better off without KDSS. You'll also be re-gearing for larger tires too in most cases. If you give a mouse a cookie...