FactoryRide
New member
I'm sure you probably already know this, but KDSS is easiest to work on when all 4 corners are resting at full droop. That eases the pressure of the system, and takes a large portion of the PIA out of it.
Lift w/ KDSS
- Thread starter Niteghost
- Start date
I'm sure you probably already know this, but KDSS is easiest to work on when all 4 corners are resting at full droop. That eases the pressure of the system, and takes a large portion of the PIA out of it.
1engineer
Moderator
[MENTION=137555]Sleeter[/MENTION] I cannot recall reading a thread where ANYONE has stripped their threads installing a lift on a KDSS equipped vehicle. [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION], as much as I respect his opinions (and he knows a lot about the 4Runner) decidedly does not like KDSS and makes that fact known in every single KDSS related thread.
There have been hundreds of TE's with KDSS lifted successfully over the years and documented on this forum. Is is more difficult than lifting a non KDSS equipped vehicle? Sure it is. Is it extremely difficult? Nope, judging by how many weekend warriors have done it, it's not that difficult at all.
Lastly, a KDSS vehicle is a bit more complex than a non equipped KDSS vehicle. Just like a power steering equipped vehicle or a vehicle with air conditioning in more complex than their non equipped counterparts. With complexity added that increases the odds of failure. Engineering 101 guys. I can still count on one hand the number of KDSS failures I have read about in the six years I have been here though. There have been many more wheel bearing failures (spacers and wheel offset being the key here) than KDSS failures. Actually I think there have been more STEERING RACK failures than KDSS failures documented here. Anyone complaining about power steering? Anyone complaining about wheel bearings? Um, no.
Bottom line, KDSS is a feature that improves on road handling and off road articulation. It is a feature that cannot be replicated by using aftermarket components. Most like it, a few do not. There is a lift guide for KDSS equipped vehicles here http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/154230-how-lift-installation-kdss-equipped-vehicles.html and I see this thread referenced all the time as a successful way to lift with KDSS. Again, it involves more steps than lifting without KDSS but is it impossible? Nope.
Now, personally, If I were going to buy a vehicle with the express intention of lifting and modding for off road, I would get the basic SR5. My next choice would be the Limited Edition for the FT 4WD benefits and throw away the XREAS. For the 99% on road guy who wants a lift for mainly looks and the occasional off road trip, there is nothing wrong with the TE or TRD O.R. with KDSS.
But all the failures [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] talks about? I have not seen nor read about them here. Not to say they didn't happen but usually when someone breaks something or something fails, the internet is the first place they come to.
alphabeast
New member
I agree with [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] in the sense that there seems to be a great deal of "KDSS fearmongering" and KDSS failures are a very small percentage of actual KDSS-equipped 4Runners. I have read of individuals who are trading in their KDSS 4Runner for a non-KDSS 4Runner partly because of this preceived fear of failure. Yes, if it fails (self-induced or otherwise) it is difficult to find a dealer with the experience and it is an expensive repair. But for me, the ride enhancements that KDSS provide outweight the fear and the slim chance of a failure. Honestly if I had this same level of KDSS fear, I dont think I would ever leave the house.
As far as installing a lift on a KDSS equipped 4runner (I will be doing this myself next month), we are just talking about an extra 4 bolts on the front and 4 bolts in the rear that potentially need to be removed in order to install the lift. Yes, if you rush or panic, you might strip threads and be in trouble, but if you take your time and think it through, it seems pretty straight forward.
Now next month after my KDSS fails and I have stripped out all the bolts I will be completely retracting this statement and join the the anti-KDSS movement.. :heh::heh::heh:
wfo9
New member
I'm not here to bash KDSS. I like it for what it is. If I was buying a new truck for my wife I would get it. If it was a used truck for me, no way unless it was a killer deal that could not be passed up... Does that make sense? It is perfect for some people and use cases... it has pros and cons, especially when TCO is considered over the long haul.
I hear people say it is such a simple system... Really? I have yet to see an actual explanation of how it works in detail at the micro level. It is very simple at a macro level... A child could figure out the concept. But at the low level. nobody really has a complete grasp on the valving and why it does what it does in certain scenarios. Like how the lean comes and goes..or the little clunks that can develop. Suspension is simple.. but when there are problems they are extremely difficult to diagnose. Mainly because of the dynamic nature.. You can't just get under a truck out on the road...
I've met several people in real life who wish they would have understood more about it before they purchased. These are people who have become enthusiast... They literally said they read all the positive reviews on here and were "told it was a must have". I've seen post where people are almost shamed for not wanting it.... I admittedly have tried to balance that equation a bit after hearing their experinces.
As far as my hyperbole..... yes (guilty as charged), it is not intentional though. I blurt out things like "most people". That is actually not accurate. It should be something like "some people". I'm using my experience in the real world with very little info from this forum (although I'm sure I can find plenty of posts if you really want to see them). In fact, read any posts on KDSS install and the stripping of the bolts is mentioned. I'm not making this stuff up.
My opinion is just one... It does however come from a perspective... I'm the type of guy who does everything on their own. If I need a roll cage.. I buy a bender and learn how to make a roll cage. If I need a dual battery setup. I buy some components and start welding up some brackets... If I want my swaybar to disconnect when offroad... I fabricate a mechanical/manual disconnect. This makes me one of a few unicorns in the 5th gen crowed, so my perspective is unusual at best. I also make plenty of mistakes along the way. I'm not bragging... I waste crap load of time and money on useless stuff, but that is what I enjoy.. so I keep doing it.
With all that said, I have still recommended KDSS to some people. But I only do that after asking them many questions about their long term intentions with the truck.
So to summarize.. It is a really nice feature.. I like it for many use cases.. I don't like working on it.. I would hate to own a high mileage truck with it and have problems. You can lift a truck with KDSS without any major issues, it's just a bit more painful and frustrating. I don't consider it a joy to work on a truck with KDSS. Not trying to start an anti-KDSS movement...
And as far as the lean goes... it falls into the category of alignment. Everyone is going to have a different experience and perspective on how much it bothers them. Some will have 0 issues....
Last edited:
alphabeast
New member
So if I am reading this correctly (and I like to think I am), what you're saying is that you will fly up to Ohio and help with my lift install on my KDSS 4Runner? :heh:
wfo9
New member
Yes, You will be fine as long as you are totally aware of the issue and not in any kind of rush.
Anyone who has done wrenching knows what the F its are... if get that feeling. just walk away.
Now imagine if you had never read any of these threads and just thought it would be super easy. Would you possible have just said F it in a moment of frustration and started cranking down on that bolt.
You will see when you get there... It's not impossible by any stretch.. Just awkward and clumsy in the front.
As far as doing the lift without removing the swaybar goes... I think it is possible, just can't remember for sure. The last one I did needed a new LCA installed at the same time so it had to come off. Try loosening the LCA cams up to get it to droop down a bit more... You will need an alignment after the lift anyway...
Last edited:
wfo9
New member
Makes non sense to me.. The control arms arc and it seems it would add tension in front. Never really tried it though. Just looking at it...and common sense, it was not a logical step. Could be a thing...
FactoryRide
New member
The front and rear sway bars are connected together with hydraulic lines. The idea being that when you stuff one corner, pressure pushes to the opposite corner. Thus keeping the vehicle flatter around turns. If the rear wheels are sitting on the ground, then pressure remains in the lines and pushing toward the front. By lifting all four corners, it alleviates the pressure, and allows you to manipulate it a good bit easier.
wfo9
New member
Never head any issue compressing the piston... That is not much of an issue to overcome from my perspective... It's all about alignment with the LCA brackets. Traditional sway bars don't have tension on level footing. The rear with KDSS is more traditional and has no tension and is no issue. But again. never tried what you are suggesting. Just always did the front on the ground and level...
Sleeter
New member
Did you cross threaded the knuckle bolts when you were installing a lift to on someone else's vehicle? Im trying to understand your experience about cross threading bolts that didn't come from a forum, presumably first hand. I googled "cross thread kdss bolt 5th gen" and the only references were warnings not to cross thread and one post about cross threading a rear shock bolt. Maybe you should enlighten us with the "plenty" of posts where people cross threaded a knuckle bolt.
1engineer
Moderator
Good post.
I didn't design the KDSS system for Toyota. I have designed many (probably close to a thousand by now) high pressure hydraulic systems, some extremely complex.
When I say it's a simple circuit, I mean it only has three main hardware components: Accumulators, cylinders and an on off valve. How the circuit is wired into the other controls on the truck I have no clue though.
I am 99% sure I identified the clunk (valves switching when going from high to low speed) and I am working on a hypothesis for the "lean" some people get.
I don't wrench on vehicles anymore but I did the same as you for several years. I prefer to spend my time doing some woodwork and riding my mountain bike nowadays.
I guess the last thing is your opinions (and facts and experiences) are read by a lot of people, and they are mostly respected, so when you use a word like "all" or "most" or "everybody" people take that literally sometimes, even though you meant "some" or "a few." I have the same problem and I am constantly editing my posts to truly reflect what I mean instead of what I typed. I think the most misused number in this forum is how often people truly go off road. I constantly see "90% on road 10% off road." I think to my self "Really, you travel 2500 miles off road every year?" For most people it should be 99%+ on road, less than 1% off road. For the record I travel around 1% to 2% off road a year and that's more than most.
...annnndddd, since it's Friday, it's time for one of my terrible jokes!
One day, Einstein, Newton, and Pascal meet up and decide to play a game of hide and seek. Einstein volunteered to go first. As he counted, Pascal ran away scrambling to find a great hiding place. Giddily, he squeezed into a crawl space sure that he would win this time as this was his best hiding spot to date and Newton surely wouldn't find an equal. Newton on the other hand, stood right in front of Einstein, pulled out a piece of chalk and drew a box on the ground of roughly 1x1 meters. Once this was completed, he sat down neatly inside the box and waited for Einstein to finish counting. When Einstein opened his eyes, he of course saw Newton and with a bit of disappointment said “I found you Newton, you lose”... but Newton replied, “On the contrary, you are looking at one Newton over a square meter... Pascal loses!”
alphabeast
New member
Realizes he only is off-road 1.387% and quick googles newton over a square meter joke..... thanks [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] :wave:
Crikeymike
Senior Member
We (Dobinsons) have KDSS-specific coils. Several here on the forum have already run them, and a lot of posted up pics or feedback here in my thread.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...-4runner-suspension-options-lots-choices.html
...I stripped one bolt in my KDSS install, but I'm blaming the guy who had already changed the suspension for me!! :rofl:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...-4runner-suspension-options-lots-choices.html
...I stripped one bolt in my KDSS install, but I'm blaming the guy who had already changed the suspension for me!! :rofl:
Fantasyridge
New member
I'll drive to texas
my dealer service manager had to make a call when I asked him what it did. "Only needed for hardcore hunters on bad dirt roads" was his answer.
wfo9
New member
Let me help you out here. You have many facts wrong.
1.KDSS does not attach to the knuckle/spindle. It attaches to the LCA. There is a big difference.
2. Google searches do not always relate to the real world. First hand experince is 1000x better. And if you need more evidence.. http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...t-installation-kdss-equipped-vehicles-10.html. Read page 10 of this thread. It just took me a quick search and there are several mentions of the problem.
3. It has nothing to do with cross threading. It is related to the tension and clearance. The threads don't cross. Toyota uses a very fine thread pitch on those bolts and they are not thick enough to handle the load required to tighten them over time.
4. I've ran across several that already had stripped out threads from previous work at dealerships.... I've also had people call me with SOS calls asking why they can't get the bolts in/out... This plus the general struggle I've had putting them back together makes me believe it is a very common issue.
5. Yes, I used a little bit of hyperbole saying "most people"... I said it to give people a huge warning flag. Not to bash KDSS. I honestly come here to help people and learn things. I'm totally indifferent to what truck you or anyone else owns. I'm always shocked that people feel such a need to defend something. Your 4Runner has flaws. Like it or not... it's far from perfect. I find it best to know those flaws and how to work with them.
My take away from this thread is you can probably install coil overs on a KDSS truck without removing the front swaybar. I think I did this once but I'm not sure if it will always work with Extended travel lengths or a top hat spacer.....Anyway, worth a try to avoid a lot of hassle. I'll definitely keep that in mind the next time I encounter one myself.
Last edited:
wfo9
New member
Good info. One question.. Is the info at the top of your post correct. Seems like some typos. 730lb coils for 1.25" of lift on KDSS?
Sleeter
New member
Funny you speak about facts but you continue to regurgitate rumors and try to pass them off as fact.
1. Yes KDSS attaches to the LCA via what is sometimes referred to as a knuckle (looks like a closed fist)
2. You said there were many documented cases of cross-threading, I looked and couldn't find any. Additionally my first hand experience tells me it's very difficult to cross-thread if proper technique is used. I've done this a few times.
3. The warning you stated "most people cross-thread the bolts" is now about tension / clearance? Your grasping at straws here buddy.
4. Previous work at dealerships? Your hyperbole (story) changes again, it's dealships that are stripping the bolts... Did you hear this from your same buddy who is the "only tech in the region who knows how to work on KDSS".
5. A little hyperbole? It was a flat out out falsehood to spread your anti-KDSS gospel.
You have lost so much credibility with anything related to KDSS due to "hyperbole" anfter "hyperbole".
According to you:
1. KDSS is not reliable- KDSS IS More reliable than power steering
2. Only for mall crawlers- Definitely not true
3. Nearly impossible to install a lift - PROVEN over and over again to be Not true
3. Mystery mechanical wonder that is more complex than nuclear fission (hyperbole) - not true
Here are some facts for you:
1. Kdss is not compatible with long travel suspension. Which we all know are such a huge fan of.
2. Kdss allows for more articulation compaired to stock sway bars
3. Kdss allows for flatter cornering compaired to stock sway bars
4. Kdss has been used for years on LCs and Lexus vehicles
5. Installing a lift on a kdss vehicle should only take 30min longer that a non-kdss.
.
I've got a 2016 TEP and upgraded the front shocks to the TRD Pros. I set both of the spring perches to the high position and have zero lean. I also added .5" top spacers. One technique I used when installing was to do the drivers side first. Then on the passenger side once I had the shock in I used a 3' bar as a lever to move the KDSS sway bar up into position in order to bolt it to the LCA.This made the job a cinch and only added 10min total with no struggling etc. also once I had the bar and bracket close I clamped the bracket to the LCAand moved it around with a tapered punch in order to align the clearance holes on the bracket to the threaded holes on the LCA.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Last edited:
trailstandardoffroad
official vendor
Just to throw my 2 cents in about lifting with kdss and stripping the bolts. I feel semi qualified to make this post. As I have had my front swaybar on and off 4 times since I bought it in December.
First I will say ratchet straps are the best way I found to get the the sway bar straps back on. With the 4runner on level ground I put 1 around the piston and another around the swaybar to the transmission crossmember. Using this set up I was able to get the bolts in almost completely by hand.
Second on my 3 other attempts I tried various other ways that lead me to strip the lower bolt hole on the driver side. I blame this partly because of the bolt thread design, but mostly on my impatience (after fighting for 2 hours). Luckily I was able to clean them out enough without a helicoil.
I thought I screwed my bolts up. So before I went in for the 4th time I ordered all new bolts. And they all chipped at the beginning of the threads
So, moral of the story. Put the swaybar straps in a position so that you can hand thread the bolts in most the way. And you completly avoid the thread stripping. Otherwise it is pretty easy to strip.
First I will say ratchet straps are the best way I found to get the the sway bar straps back on. With the 4runner on level ground I put 1 around the piston and another around the swaybar to the transmission crossmember. Using this set up I was able to get the bolts in almost completely by hand.
Second on my 3 other attempts I tried various other ways that lead me to strip the lower bolt hole on the driver side. I blame this partly because of the bolt thread design, but mostly on my impatience (after fighting for 2 hours). Luckily I was able to clean them out enough without a helicoil.
I thought I screwed my bolts up. So before I went in for the 4th time I ordered all new bolts. And they all chipped at the beginning of the threads
So, moral of the story. Put the swaybar straps in a position so that you can hand thread the bolts in most the way. And you completly avoid the thread stripping. Otherwise it is pretty easy to strip.
Last edited:
drtyjerz47
New member
Another member got a trail P and had them add the badges and grille along with suspension of a trd pro.
You end up with a trd pro with kdss and a sun roof.
In retrospect I could have done the same thing and ended up paying more than his whole rig + conversion for a SR5P due to rolling a massive amount of negative equity.
U win some u loose some. I don't have the top notch 4R but I got a rig I've always wanted and I'm out of my last SUV
