The point is that they never did such extensive testing. So it stands to reason they might actually do a bit better this time around. Sounds logical to me. At least they are trying to make a "world class" vehicle.
Looks like I am going to the dark side
- Thread starter 03_4x4Runner
- Start date
The point is that they never did such extensive testing. So it stands to reason they might actually do a bit better this time around. Sounds logical to me. At least they are trying to make a "world class" vehicle.
First of all, lets stop pretending that you're ignoring me...that's getting old. Either ignore me or don't ignore me. But don't keep saying that you're ignoring me when you're obviously not.
What am I doing here? Reading and posting. I'm not a negative Nancy. I'm just giving my own opinions, not stating them as facts like some other people apparently like to do... My opinions are my own and have always been. The funny thing here is how butt-hurt some guys get when I say I don't like the 5th gen styling. Who cares? That's my opinion. If you love it, then good for you. And for the record, I don't just go into the 5th gen forum and start posting....that's not how I choose to use the forum. Whenever I come here, I look at the new posts and read/respond to the ones that interest me, regardless of which sub-forum they are posted in.
Sorry, but I'm not buying it. All manufacturers build prototype and preproduction units and road test them -- that's why spy photographers are able to get pictures. And while testing of preproduction units will find some issues, it isn't the be all, end all of reliability. For example, things as innocuous as specifications for automotive wiring and connections can have a huge impact on intermittent electrical problems.
I hope the new GC is world-class in reliability. I really do. But a Chryco advertisement video isn't going to convince me that they've succeeded. Only time will do that.
Sure, they all test. But it looks like they are going above and beyond what they normally do. So maybe it will be better....only time will tell.
adkinsadam1
New member
Really?! Independent front and rear suspension - really?! Unibody design - really?! Non-standard skid plates - really?! A 4Runner copy terrain-select - really?! No manual locking rear differential - really?! 13 mpg city - really?! No KDSS - really?! And you are buying this - really?! The 4Runner wasn't the 4 wheeler of the year for nothing.
4Runner also has an IFS and the GC IRS is adequate for the vast majority of buyers.
GC has been unibody for many years. So?
Dunno about the 5th gen skid plates, but my 4th gen skid plates were a joke.
Oh, come on. Terrain select was not a Toyota invention and you know it. Land Rover has had it for years.
SR5 and Limited don't have a locking rear diff either.
As you know, only some TE's have this. In my market, I can't find a single one.
There are plenty of reasons to choose a 5th gen over a 2011 GC. There's just no reason to try to mislead as you did.
TOYSTRY
New member
You'll love the new Grand Cherokee (GC). I too was about to buy one but the ONLY reason I didn't was because of the cargo space and rear window (I have a 120 dog who is too big for it). The GC's rear cargo area is too shallow in height and the rear window doesnt roll down. They are amazing inside and out.............amazing. The 4Runner is a second runner up to the GC in my opinion. Air adjustable suspension option, V8 with MVS engine shutoff of 4 cylinders, Mercedes grade interior........the list goes on. Beautiful SUV!
Having said that, I just bought a 2011 Limited 4Runner last night and LOVE the ruggedness of it. Less worried about the dog trashing it....selling point for the wife and I.
Good luck with whatever decision you make, you won't regret either.
You're completely missing the point. So I'll say it again--they are going above and beyond anything THEY'VE done in the past. Now put your logic cap on for a moment and realize that can only be a good thing. And it might even improve the reliability of their vehicles.
Yup, IRS is new this year. First time ever. The 4Runner is one of the last midsize SUVs still holding on to a live rear axle.
Yup, the Grand Cherokee has always been unibody. They actually call it something different though. I think "uniframe" is their name for it. Supposedly it incorporates some type of stiffer frame rails into the unibody shell.
Or you can say available skid plate package. I'm sure guys who never plan to offroad would rather not have the extra expense, weight, and inconvienience of skid plates. Point is, they are available for those who want them.
Really do you think they are copying the 4Runner? LOL, terrain select has been a Land Rover thing for years. So if anything, Toyota copied it from Land Rover. And since it's a new feature on the 4Runner, I'd have to give that a big "REALLY" for copying Land Rovers!
Electronic locking rear diff. QDII is actually a new 4wd system for the 2011 Grand. It should be very capable.
Yup, with a Hemi V8. With a V6, it's more like the 4Runner.
Yup, really. Air suspension that raises the vehicle to two heights above standard ride height? Yup, really. I doubt they need or want KDSS.
Hey, I thought I'd make a "really" response for the Grand Cherokee guys. Here's what they would say about the 4Runner Trail Edition:
Really?! No available V8? Really?! A max tow rating of 5,000 lbs? Really?! Non-projector headlights? Really?! No adjustable air suspension ride height? Really?! No full-time 4wd capability? I think you get the point....
brian2sun
Elite Member
Well the way I see it is, it doesn't matter what the Trail (or any edition of the 5th gen) or the GC comes with for off roading. Any experienced off roader realizes that the "trail" package is paying about 5xs more than you should for a rear locker plus a bunch of useless crap like a mediocre JBL stereo system and the cheapest line of Bilstein shocks made. So from an off road standpoint, you'd have to choose which is the best platform to start from. A frameless SUV (in the truest sense of the words) with indy suspension all the way around or a body-on-frame truck/SUV that at least has a solid rear axle. I don't think too many smart off roaders will be choosing the GC, but soccor moms will love it as well as any edition of the 5th gen.
QDII isn't comparable to a selectable spool locker. Mechanical lockers will outperform ABS and throttle driven locker "simulators" in every circumstance. That is something that Jeep should know. It actually irritates me that they think their loyal off roader base doesn't know these things are crap. If you've got a wheel up in the air, only a locked diff will make it turn. And KDSS is overcomplicating something that should stay mechanical IMO. Someone please tell all these friggin tech geeks that electronically controlled aides are f'ing junk off road.
I'll take bets on how long that Hemi will last in the GC. It actually affirms to me just how out-of-touch Jeep is with their customer base. Wrangler fans have been asking for that engine since way before they started putting minivan V6s in the Wranglers in '07. But who does Jeep give it to? Yip, as always the ones who appreciate it the least - soccor moms. Fix It Again Tony!
QDII isn't comparable to a selectable spool locker. Mechanical lockers will outperform ABS and throttle driven locker "simulators" in every circumstance. That is something that Jeep should know. It actually irritates me that they think their loyal off roader base doesn't know these things are crap. If you've got a wheel up in the air, only a locked diff will make it turn. And KDSS is overcomplicating something that should stay mechanical IMO. Someone please tell all these friggin tech geeks that electronically controlled aides are f'ing junk off road.
I'll take bets on how long that Hemi will last in the GC. It actually affirms to me just how out-of-touch Jeep is with their customer base. Wrangler fans have been asking for that engine since way before they started putting minivan V6s in the Wranglers in '07. But who does Jeep give it to? Yip, as always the ones who appreciate it the least - soccor moms. Fix It Again Tony!
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TTown
New member
I passed a JGC on the freeway today. It is a good looking truck. I hope Jeep improves it's reliability and sells a ton of them.
I still won't buy one because of their reputation for quality and reliability. If they change that, then that means more competition. More competition means better products for us!
I still won't buy one because of their reputation for quality and reliability. If they change that, then that means more competition. More competition means better products for us!
Like it or not, electronic aids are here to stay. If you want to stay low-tech, you basically have no choice but to stick with the older vehicles. I've actually been thinking about getting myself a decent International Scout II as a project vehicle.
This was an advertising video, which means I don't believe a word of it.
I will go so far as to say that the new GC reliability will absolutely be better than the previous one. The question is, will it be good enough? That's where my skepticism comes in. I hope it is. Really, I do. But Chryco has disappointed me in the past.
brian2sun
Elite Member
Not that I think the factory locker is worth the $$, but Toyota did discontinue the lockers in the later 3rd gens and replaced them with electronic traction control and that continued through the entire run of the 4th gens. But then they brought the lockers back with the FJCs and the Trail Ed. 5th gen. It would appear that Toyota does know that sometimes mechanical devices (albeit electronically actuated) are better even if the technology is older. Take the Colt 1911 (M1911 made me think of this). It's almost 100 years old and it's still the most popular hangun sold today. Technology has made many other handguns possible since then, but are they better? No, just different and IMO most (if not all) are still inferior.
A 4Runner copy terrain-select - really?!
Really do you think they are copying the 4Runner? LOL, terrain select has been a Land Rover thing for years. So if anything, Toyota copied it from Land Rover. And since it's a new feature on the 4Runner, I'd have to give that a big "REALLY" for copying Land Rovers!
I agree Jed. Have had two LR3's and have to say land rover has it down.
On another note I have had 3 SRT8 jeeps and had zero problems with them. Granted, it was not really an suv. Can't wait to see how the 12 turns out.
Really do you think they are copying the 4Runner? LOL, terrain select has been a Land Rover thing for years. So if anything, Toyota copied it from Land Rover. And since it's a new feature on the 4Runner, I'd have to give that a big "REALLY" for copying Land Rovers!
I agree Jed. Have had two LR3's and have to say land rover has it down.
On another note I have had 3 SRT8 jeeps and had zero problems with them. Granted, it was not really an suv. Can't wait to see how the 12 turns out.
Egstyle
New member
KDSS is a mechanical system, no electronics are involved.
Learn from Wikipedia: "It optimally adjusts front and rear stabilizers based on a set of interconnected hydraulic cylinders. The interconnection is made up of hydraulic piping and a control cylinder which is located at the frame rail. KDSS, which is ---->*****fully mechanical******<------, can disengage the stabilizer bars (the bars are jointed, allowing movement independent of one another). This system will not engage during normal driving conditions, when hydraulic pressure is equal. In off-road conditions, KDSS activates when it senses that a wheel has dropped."
Know what you're talking about.
brian2sun
Elite Member
Thanks for that. Wiki is cool. I was talking about all the "improvements" in general that aren't improving traditional and proven equipment. My point is there's nothing more mechanical than removing/disconnecting traditional sway bars to get independent movement. I get your point about KDSS, but I included that as another thing that has a complicated system to break that isn't controlled by the driver and isn't any better than what the older trucks have (whether it's hydraulic or electric). I didn't know the exact way it was operated because I'm not interested in overcomplicating a simple thing so I don't spend a lot of time researching designs like that. Now that you've so tastefully pointed out the difference, I still would not want an expensive hydraulic system to replace my lack of sway bars. How much does that cost to fix when it breaks?
harper7
Senior Member
Curious to hear your explanation of why you think a 3rd Gen is "smarter" to build an offroad vehicle then a 5th Gen. soccer mom vehicle as you say.
Other then the 5th being bigger and can't get thru as tight of trails they can both made to be equally formidable with the right add ons.
BTW,I drive and maintain my GF's 97 Limited 4x4 all the time and yes she is a soccer mom.She bought it in 99 with 19k miles and now has 170k miles.
Now the first Gens are a different story.
