Looks like I am going to the dark side

[westwind77]

Westwind, ......

LOL, do you really think I did that for you?

Well, actually yes, you did. Sure, others on the forum can see it and may/may not read it, but you yourself addressed me personally at the start of the post (see above) not the community as a whole. During your 'informational session' you did not seem to drift away to indicate you possibly were addressing others specifically. Just like the person on their cell phone on speaker in a crowd, others can listen but the conversation is really between two people. Yes, I know you were flipping back and forth....for 9 minutes.....searching and linking. Well. in any case, glad you agree they are not world class autos. Every year each company makes advancements, but every year the bar gets raised as well. The key is to make sure your advancements move further than the bar every year, then one day you will be above it.

 

[Jed]

Well, actually yes, you did. Sure, others on the forum can see it and may/may not read it, but you yourself addressed me personally at the start of the post (see above) not the community as a whole. During your 'informational session' you did not seem to drift away to indicate you possibly were addressing others specifically. Just like the person on their cell phone on speaker in a crowd, others can listen but the conversation is really between two people. Yes, I know you were flipping back and forth....for 9 minutes.....searching and linking. Well. in any case, glad you agree they are not world class autos. Every year each company makes advancements, but every year the bar gets raised as well. The key is to make sure your advancements move further than the bar every year, then one day you will be above it.

You really need to pop that inflated head of yours. Whether I addressed you or not, my post was intended to inform anyone who wants to read the links. That's the concept of a message forum...and even people who aren't forum members can read it too! If I want to address you personally, I'll PM you. But don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen, because I'm really not interested in you on a personal level.

And since you think you know everything, I'll have to say once again that I didn't spend anywhere near 9 minutes searching/linking/typing. But thanks once again for being so very concerned with how I spend my time.

You really shouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight. You're outta your league, kiddo.

 

[Jed]

I looked at the jeep before making the final decision on the forerunner and Ive got to be Honest that was a sharp looking SUV. I keep my vehicles as long as the bumper to bumper warranty is in effect and then I sell or trade the vehicle in So jeep reliability wasn't in question for me. The downfall to the Jeep for me was the dealerships lack of wanting to deal since it was a 2011 in 2010, and the V6 felt rather sluggish compared to the Toyota and I had no interest in a big V8. The interior was awesome and felt very comfortable, but then again so does Toyota's. I know some of or most of this has been covered but I just wanted to Voice my opinion on the matter. On the above posts I kind of like having someone with an outside opinion of Toyota and Jeep makes you look at the other side of the coin.

Some people have reported that they've been able to negotiate a decent price on the new Grand Cherokees already. And as for being underpowered, I think the V6 model will feel very much different next year when they put the new 6-speed automatic in it. From what I've heard, the gear ratios are supposed to be perfectly suited for the engine output of the V6 engine.

 

[Jed]

.... Just like the person on their cell phone on speaker in a crowd, others can listen but the conversation is really between two people....

Forgot to say.... this is by far the funniest part of your response. The fact that you're trying to equate a cell phone conversation with a message forum proves how out of touch you are with reality.

If someone just happens to overhear your cell phone conversation, then they happened to be in ear shot (which in your case is unfortunate for them) and they hear just one side of the conversation. Here in a message forum, anyone interested can read both sides of the conversation. Hence my decision to post the information that I provided earlier. I can't believe you don't understand this simple concept, but I guess it really shouldn't surprise me.

 

[Thai]

A few thoughts:

QDII is NOT new to 2011 GC...it has been around. QDII has never been really hardcore stuff...it does NOT lockup completely under stressful conditions and is (i believe) totally computer controlled...it is more like a fancy LSD. I much rather have a rear locker + A-TRAC that can be selected manually by the driver.

Uniframe is still a unibody. All unibodies have steel rails to support it. My old 1997 Honda CRV had them. Unibodies are great for on-road stuff (less weight, more uniform movement, and better crash protection). Unfortunately, Jeep has never really been good at any of this...their weight is still on par with body-on-frame SUVs. The handling, while decent, was not really breakthru. The crash testings have been unspectacular. The other big thing about unibody is that off-road damage often makes repair expensive and affects the overall body rigidity (once you crack an egg, it is never the same afterwards).

IFS & IRS = bad articulation. This is why KDSS is so nice. IFS & IRS also limits how reliable it is with aftermarket lockers (in case you want to get rid of QDII). If this was a car, then i think IFS & IRS are great...but for an off-roader? Nah.

Finally, this GC is based on a Mercedes M-class...and this is not the old M-class. The platform is the new TOTALLY ON-ROAD Mercedes crossover that Mercedes has NO PLANS for it going off pavement. It is like Toyota putting the off-road stuff on a Highlander or Lexus RX350...and calling it the next best thing for off-roading.

At least, with Land Rover products, they were designed from the start as an off-road capable platform; thus you have the cross-linking shocks, the HD unibody (Range Rover) or HD BOF (RRS and LR4). Although i am not fond of the Terrain Response, at least, it has a real rear locker. (Note: the rear locker in the LR is computer controlled also...so, it ain't as good as a traditional man-pushing-button locker.)

If i was buying a Jeep, then i would look only at the Wrangler lineup. But you guys knew that already.

 

[Jed]

Thia,

It’s not the same old QDII system…they kept the name, but the revamped all three 4wd systems for the 2011 Grand Cherokee. I’m not saying it’s any better (I’m not completely familiar with exactly what they changed), I’m just saying it’s different.

 

[Thai]

Thia,

It’s not the same old QDII system…they kept the name, but the revamped all three 4wd systems for the 2011 Grand Cherokee. I’m not saying it’s any better (I’m not completely familiar with exactly what they changed), I’m just saying it’s different.

Well, the only difference is that QDII now has a CPU to determine when to "progressively lock the axle." (Quotes are placed because QDII does not really fully lock an axle in practice; only under lab conditions does it do it.) This is why Jeep kept the same name because it is really not that much different, same components, just different brain (mechanical/hydraulic before, now electronic). In practice, it is probably (at best) as effective as A-TRAC. A true manually-actuated locker is still superior for off-roading.

This is why you don't see the Wrangler Rubicon running QDII (of any type). QDII is not for true off-roaders...they are good for most folks, just like ATRAC (not A-TRAC) is good for most folks.

 

[Jed]

westwind77 or is it westwind1124a?

Ah ha! It all makes sense now!

LOLOLOL

 

[westwind77]

Whether I addressed you or not, my post was intended to inform anyone who wants to read the links.

You really shouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight. You're outta your league, kiddo.

Ha, nice try, but anyone with common sense knows better. Like I said, anyone can read them, but the fact is you addressed me personally in start, just like you were writting a letter to your little pen pals around the world. Do me a favor, never address me personally and then I will not have to call you one it, M'ka? Oh, and after you pop my 'head' do yourself a favor and pop your ego.

As far as bringing a knife to a gun fight, obviously you have never been in the military, the bullet is not always stronger than the knife my friend, M'ka, you should really keep that in mind.

 

[westwind77]

westwind77 or is it westwind1124a?

Ah ha! It all makes sense now!

LOLOLOL

Ummmm huh? It is westwind77, signed up shortly as the 10's were being released. Oh no, someone else has westwind in their screen name, oh no, it must be that 77 guy, it is all a giant conspiracy. News flash, no reason to create more than one screen name...I have not looked up any posts by that person but here is a shot in the dark, they have a problem with you too (that is not a small list around here though)? I think you should take another 9 minutes from your day and search the entire internet, I bet you that every name including westwind must be me. You should write them all and tell them you found who it really is, LOL So Gay

 

[Dispense]

I think these two should start their own thread...

Every time I come here looking for topic updates, all I get is this pissing contest. Seriously, who wants to read this back and forth babble...

Some folks here are all too eager to point out every minute mistake posted or take personal insult to a contrary opinion.

Now I believe accuracy is important, but there are tactful ways to re-inform =) These internet battles are getting old.

 

[Thai]

Not that I think the factory locker is worth the $$, but Toyota did discontinue the lockers in the later 3rd gens and replaced them with electronic traction control and that continued through the entire run of the 4th gens. But then they brought the lockers back with the FJCs and the Trail Ed. 5th gen. It would appear that Toyota does know that sometimes mechanical devices (albeit electronically actuated) are better even if the technology is older. Take the Colt 1911 (M1911 made me think of this). It's almost 100 years old and it's still the most popular hangun sold today. Technology has made many other handguns possible since then, but are they better? No, just different and IMO most (if not all) are still inferior.

To be 100% accurate, the 4th gen did come with a rear locker from factory...2009 4runner Trail Edition...but then again, those are as hard to find as Bin Ladin!

 

[Jed]

Ha, nice try, but anyone with common sense knows better. Like I said, anyone can read them, but the fact is you addressed me personally in start, just like you were writting a letter to your little pen pals around the world. Do me a favor, never address me personally and then I will not have to call you one it, M'ka? Oh, and after you pop my 'head' do yourself a favor and pop your ego.

As far as bringing a knife to a gun fight, obviously you have never been in the military, the bullet is not always stronger than the knife my friend, M'ka, you should really keep that in mind.

You're a glutton for punishment, aren't you? Again, there is nothing personal in my messages...they are intended for everyone to read. That's common sense for everyone except you. Let me break it down for you in more understandable terms: Take this specific post. It isn't just intended for you, but for anyone interested in reading it. If it was for your eyes only, I'd have sent it to you via PM. But since I didn't, it was obviously intended for everyone. Get it? Got it? Good.

Any time you want to match up that knife with a gun, let me know. Ironically, you're trying to do that right now and failing miserably.

Umm...wait, did you just say I've never been in the military? LOL, I guess 4 years in the Marine Corps doesn't qualify, huh?

 

[Jed]

Ummmm huh? It is westwind77, signed up shortly as the 10's were being released. Oh no, someone else has westwind in their screen name, oh no, it must be that 77 guy, it is all a giant conspiracy. News flash, no reason to create more than one screen name...I have not looked up any posts by that person but here is a shot in the dark, they have a problem with you too (that is not a small list around here though)? I think you should take another 9 minutes from your day and search the entire internet, I bet you that every name including westwind must be me. You should write them all and tell them you found who it really is, LOL So Gay

Yeah, someone else....keep trying to convince us that it's somebody else. You're a riot, Alice.

 

[Thai]

Thanks for that. Wiki is cool. I was talking about all the "improvements" in general that aren't improving traditional and proven equipment. My point is there's nothing more mechanical than removing/disconnecting traditional sway bars to get independent movement. I get your point about KDSS, but I included that as another thing that has a complicated system to break that isn't controlled by the driver and isn't any better than what the older trucks have (whether it's hydraulic or electric). I didn't know the exact way it was operated because I'm not interested in overcomplicating a simple thing so I don't spend a lot of time researching designs like that. Now that you've so tastefully pointed out the difference, I still would not want an expensive hydraulic system to replace my lack of sway bars. How much does that cost to fix when it breaks?

KDSS provides the "best of both worlds." It disconnects the front and rear sway bars in one motion. It does it by "reading" the terrain. Not all off-road obstacles require disconnects...and on some obstacles, disconnects can be deadly! Without KDSS, you will be jumping in and out of your 4runner often as the terrain varies (if you go to such places). Is there a small compromise in clearance with KDSS? Sure, but the benefits surely outweighs the small compromise. KDSS is reliable enough that it is on the mighty Land Cruiser, which is used around the world. KDSS was also optional on the GX470/Prado. And correct me if i am wrong, but KDSS is well-proven in rally cars...this technology has been around for several years in off-road races. So, i don't think that it is any less reliable than your average locker.

And lets not forget 3rd gen's other weaknesses: lack of rear disc brakes, relatively low crawl ratio (MUCH more important than engine power, but the later gens 4runners have both!), less stock articulation, less room (and payload), etc.. And even the best 3rd gens with rear locker has an open front differential. 5th gens (and GC for that matter) have front assisted traction devices that are effective.

While the 3rd gen was simpler technologically, it does not necessarily mean that it is the best off-road, either from capability or reliability standpoint.

Just wanted to throw this in here....

 

[Jed]

KDSS provides the "best of both worlds." It disconnects the front and rear sway bars in one motion. It does it by "reading" the terrain. Not all off-road obstacles require disconnects...and on some obstacles, disconnects can be deadly! Without KDSS, you will be jumping in and out of your 4runner often as the terrain varies (if you go to such places). Is there a small compromise in clearance with KDSS? Sure, but the benefits surely outweighs the small compromise. KDSS is reliable enough that it is on the mighty Land Cruiser, which is used around the world. KDSS was also optional on the GX470/Prado. And correct me if i am wrong, but KDSS is well-proven in rally cars...this technology has been around for several years in off-road races. So, i don't think that it is any less reliable than your average locker.

And lets not forget 3rd gen's other weaknesses: lack of rear disc brakes, relatively low crawl ratio (MUCH more important than engine power, but the later gens 4runners have both!), less stock articulation, less room (and payload), etc.. And even the best 3rd gens with rear locker has an open front differential. 5th gens (and GC for that matter) have front assisted traction devices that are effective.

While the 3rd gen was simpler technologically, it does not necessarily mean that it is the best off-road, either from capability or reliability standpoint.

Just wanted to throw this in here....

Yes, I agree with everything you mentioned. And I'm not sure why anyone would think KDSS is anything but good technology. Even guys who like to keep it simple should realize how much better it is to have KDSS than to rip out the sway bars and have a wallowy 4Runner on the road. Articulation is nice, but not when it comes at that kind of expense, unless you have a 100% trail-dedicated rig.

 

[Thai]

Any experienced off roader realizes that the "trail" package is paying about 5xs more than you should for a rear locker plus a bunch of useless crap like a mediocre JBL stereo system and the cheapest line of Bilstein shocks made.

I'll take bets on how long that Hemi will last in the GC. It actually affirms to me just how out-of-touch Jeep is with their customer base. Wrangler fans have been asking for that engine since way before they started putting minivan V6s in the Wranglers in '07. But who does Jeep give it to? Yip, as always the ones who appreciate it the least - soccor moms. Fix It Again Tony!

Trail package brings a lot to the table...you may have to spend more aftermarket to get the equivalent. I thought that the JBL in the 5th gen is amazing??? Is it bad? Bilsteins are bilsteins...sure, you can spend $$$$ for the 5100 series or something, but how many of you ACTUALLY need 5100s??? Most of my off-roading (in my former life) was low-speed crawl over rocks and so on. Even with my stock shocks (on my 3rd gen) and my Bilsteins (on my G500), i never experienced shock fade nor shock leak. Never. And with the OEM Bilstein's monotube design, shock fade should be hard to come by (as is foaming). I am sure that the standard OEM Bilsteins (still monotube, still same technology as 5100s) can handle most off-roaders on this forum. Yeah, if you do a lot of high speed desert runs, then yeah, you may consider 5100s or whatever. Now, if you lift your vehicle, then i agree with aftermarket shocks, but then again, i am not a fan of modifying suspension factory specs either (another story, another thread).

Your same argument was proposed by some Jeep owners when the Rubicon first came out in 2003. "Jeeps are built, not bought." Remember that? Oh yeah, those same folks soon came to the realization that the Rubicon package was far cheaper than what you can get aftermarket! And the best part? It comes with factory warranty and factory engineering..and if you don't overly abuse (or modify your rig), then this warranty is intact. Factory engineering is VERY important because i trust this over any aftermarket vendor, with maybe exception being ARB. Oh yeah, you also don't have to deal with dumba$$es who install your aftermarket parts backwards!

HEMI in a Wrangler is probably not a good idea. I know...AEV does it. I just don't see how they can put it in and still maintain balance and reliability in the powertrain. Honestly, i don't know for sure. I much rather have Jeep put in the oversea diesel (from Mercedes parts bin i think) in the Wrangler! That is much much more worthwhile than any HEMI from both reliability AND economical viewpoints. Here is some tidbits on the new diesel:

"Automotive markets outside of North America will get to enjoy the 2.8-liter unit which produces 200 horsepower and over 300 pound-feet of torque (the twist output depends on which transmission is fitted). The six-speed manual sees about 302 lb-ft (delivered from 2,000 to 3,000 rpm) while the five-speed automatic-equipped Wrangler produces nearly 340 lb-ft of torque (1,600 to 2,600 rpm).

In addition to the power boost over the outgoing diesel engine, this Wrangler also benefits from start/stop technology. This helps the Jeep see a 13 percent increase in fuel economy over the previous generation while at the same time reducing emissions by 14 percent."

 

[infractions]

I think these two should start their own thread...

Every time I come here looking for topic updates, all I get is this pissing contest. Seriously, who wants to read this back and forth babble...

Some folks here are all too eager to point out every minute mistake posted or take personal insult to a contrary opinion.

Now I believe accuracy is important, but there are tactful ways to re-inform =) These internet battles are getting old.

Agreed, infractions given, which resulted in one temp ban, the member had other infractions from a month ago.

Lets try to not have personal attacks and just talk about the subject at hand. Thanks.

 

[westwind77]

Agreed, infractions given, which resulted in one temp ban, the member had other infractions from a month ago.

Lets try to not have personal attacks and just talk about the subject at hand. Thanks.

Just like to issue an apology to the forum for my back and forth, it had no place in the open, it takes a LOT to get under my skin, unfortunately there are a couple people in this world who manage to do it very well.

Anyway Onward we go, here is to full tanks of fuel and open trails (and on topics posts) Its the weekend, let's get dirty!

 

[brian2sun]

I appreciate your posts Thai. You're right that I forgot the 4th gen Trails came with a locker. Like you pointed out, they are hard to find, almost like Bin Ladin haha. I've always found it cheaper to take a base model and do your own suspension and off road upgrades, but some vehicles do come well-equipped from the factory like the Rubi. If I was going to buy a Jeep, I would go for the Rubi because the Dana 44s are much stronger and the selectable lockers they come with are good too. Add in the Rubi t-case and it would be hard to buy all that stuff aftermarket and beat the price. And like you mentioned, the warranty is nice too (that's a lot bigger concern to me with a Jeep!). However... if you took a stock Wrangler and threw in D60s with ARBs and dual cases, it would end up being an even better, stronger off roader for probably close to that $10,000 difference. I think we both understand eachother. And yes, I do come from the school of "a Jeep/Toyota/whatever is built, not bought". However, the Rubi would give me years of good off roading without having to do much so it's something I definitely would consider.

My 3rd gen is a trail rig and what I use to get around in the snowy winter months. That's why I don't mind not running sway bars. I'm used to the handling characteristics on the highway and it doesn't really bother me, but if it was my DD, I would run disconnects. My comment on KDSS was coming more from a full time off roader standpoint. For a DD KDSS is probably a nice feature and like I said earlier, it isn't something that would sway my decision in the least to buy a 5th gen. I just like to be in control, not the truck. I've also dropped in lower gears to help offset the low crawl ratio, but if we're talking a serious off roader, all gens of the 4runner need dual cases or a crawl box.

As far as the 5th gens and off roading goes, I think I could take just an SR5 and for ~$5000 less than a Trail Ed and spend ~$1000 on a lift (with better shocks), $2000 on some ARBs, and the other $2000 on a dual case set-up and it would eat a Trail Ed for breakfast. I admittedly haven't priced this out, but I would say I could probably make it happen for about the same price as a Trail. Basically I would gain a front locker, get a lift (with better shocks) and trade a stereo system for a "real" low crawl ratio.

As far as 3rd vs. 5th for off roading, I think there are both pretty equal as platforms to make into great off roaders, but I do believe that a skinnier vehicle is a big improvement on the trails too, so I can't discredit that. Some of "my" trails have a few squeezes that a 5th gen may just not make it through without body damage. Offset that with the power of the 5th gen and I think they're pretty equal. I didn't really consider stock travel, because I just don't see stock trucks on the trails. Maybe the fire roads, but not the rock gardens so I would have to change the suspension on any gen of the 4runner before running real trails.

I would love to see the Hemi in the Wrangler! I know you have commented in the past that you don't dislike the current V6 they use, but I live in the mountains and have lots of friends that have them and honestly, all of them want more power. I have ridden up the mountain several times in them and they're weak IMO. The 4-doors are painful. But a diesel? I would definitely consider that just as much as a Hemi.