Lotus CV Axles are here!

[Nelsonmd]

As far as the R&D of these, unless you personally know the guys at Toytec, as I do, then you have NO room to talk, these guys test everything they sell, and they test it HARD....

Let's be fair, the R&D was at Lotus. It's great that Toytec tests their product, but a couple buys beating on a product does not prove a good design. They can find design flaws, but they can't prove reliability or lack of defects. It's a great selling strategy though, they gain alot of insight by using the products they sell.

The whole "you're moving the weak point" argument is total crap. You are making the vehicle stronger!! Chances are you won't be breaking the next thing in the chain, although it can happen, but guess what? Now you are getting further along the trail and having more fun! That's the whole point. If you subscribe to the move the weak point theory, then don't ever, ever modify your car.

Actually, it's a very good argument. Engineers frequently design in the weak point to make it repairable (this is VERY common in the auto industry), and to achieve a single, predictable failure mode. Better to have a cheap, easy to replace component that consistently breaks at 10 imaginary strength units, than have an expensive, hard to replace one that breaks over a wide range, but averaging 14 imaginary strength units.

If you believe your point, then please don't ever design a car...

I am not saying to axles are a bad thing just tryin to make sure people see what they may have to look for in the long run...

This is a good point, but you have to admit, your original delivery totally deserved the ridicule. Punctuation matters!

I think you missed my point. Yes, there will always something that is the weakest link, but that is a ridiculous reason to use against doing an upgrade.

Not necessarily. You gotta appreciate how much engineering goes into these vehicles. Controllable failure points are very important. You may think it makes your vehicle "stronger", but that only counts if you can live in the range between the old weakest link, and the new one. More than likely, if your stress goes beyond the original weakest link, it is probably also going to spike above the second weakest too, in which case, instead of breaking some thing like a CV that is easy to replace, you break a diff, or a DS, or a TC, or a tranny, or something else anyway.

And be serious guys, all of you that said a diff is cheap and easy to replace, would you RATHER break a CV on the trail, or break your diff? That's a pretty easy question, you'd rather break the CV.

BTW, I am not bashing these Lotus CV's, or defending them. I'd never pay for them, but for someone with lots of money that wants THE strongest CV possible (assuming they have upgraded the other weak links in the drivetrain already), this could be a great product.

 

[JWaldz]

I've got a full warranty'd diff. Only PITA part is removing/installing, which sucks but is still doable. With that said, I'll gladly be a guinea pig if you guys want to send me a pair to see a hardcore test. My combo of 35's and the ARB locker EATS cv's for breakfast, lunch, & dinner. I've literally blown them to bits. So, I'll test the hell out of them until something breaks, I promise. If this has already been done then please, show us the proof cus I really want to see it, honestly. I'm not bashing the product guys. If you're anything like me, you would want to see the proof of a new product before you dish out. Especially since these are NOT cheap. If they have a full no questions asked warranty then great!

 

[sn0wrunner]

The owner of Lotus wheels his 3rd gen harder than anyone I've seen. Because he has a 3rd gen without manual locking hubs he designed his products for that vehicle. It was more common for him to go wheeling and brake and axle, than it was for him to not break an axle. Same goes for me, and many others. Together him and I have broken well over 25 stock axles. Since installing the axles neither he or I have broken a single one. This includes trips to moab and trails all over colorado. That right there shows these are obviously stronger than stock. What kind of proof do you want?

If you have already upgraded your front diff to an ARB, trutrac, etc the CV's are the weak point.

Neither Lotus or Toytec are claiming they are "unbreakable". Nothing is unbreakable. What they are saying is that they have a superior product than the stock axle.

For those that haven't, I'd suggest reading the product description on the Lotus Development website.

 

[steezemcqueen]

So you telling me you put a $1000 set of axles in you rig that may cost $3000 to rebuilt the front diff. Have you seen a front diff blow up on the trail and bust a case and jack all kind of stuff up. That is with stock ones. I think you have not.

I will just stick with my $65 one and replace it when I break it for free plus I have a set of OEM ones I had rebuilt for trailer spares. It only a 30min job to replace one. In less it breaks off in the diff then add 15mins to drill and tap a hole to screw a bolt in so you can pull it out done that a few times as well.

I was going to keep quiet through all this and accept that everyone has differences of opinion and are entitled to it. However there are a lot of incorrect statements in this post that i would like to clear up

1st. Yes sure the auto parts stores have a lifetime warranty on their axles. But in my opinion this means absolutely nothing if the product is junk and breaks easily whenever you wheel. Kinda reminds me of a line from Tommy Boy



Sure you can get a free replacement every time one breaks, but replacing CV's is time and time is money to me. Also, have you ever gotten under a 4runner held up by a hi-lift to replace a CV? Its sketchy! If the truck falls in you while you are under there, you are pretty much dead. So by that logic, the more you replace your CV's the higher chance you could be dead!

Ok that was a stretch but whatever.


2nd. have you ever had to drill and tap a broken off shaft in the CV? since you said it only takes 15 minutes, i'm gonna say no you haven't. Try like 4 hours.

3rd. Lotus and Toytec are releasing new products for the 3rd gen and trying to support the platform. Not really sure why you seem to be mad about that. IMHO its a great thing that these people are willing to spend time and money to R&D products for our rigs.

Obviously these axles are not meant for everyone but lets say you have added a ARB or lockrite or whatever up front and now you end up popping CV's every time you wheel. THAT is why these were designed.

I personally know and wheel with the owner of Lotus and i can say that he would break a CV almost every time he went wheeling. That gets pretty old. Heck, it got old for me and it wasn't even my rig! I do know that these axles have been beat on by him and a few others and have not had a single failure as of yet.

 

[DeTwizzle]

The real problem is that y'all don't know about my secret stash of OEM CV's for $40... once that dries up this is about the only route that I will go.:boxer::vader:

 

[JWaldz]

The owner of Lotus wheels his 3rd gen harder than anyone I've seen. Because he has a 3rd gen without manual locking hubs he designed his products for that vehicle. It was more common for him to go wheeling and brake and axle, than it was for him to not break an axle. Same goes for me, and many others. Together him and I have broken well over 25 stock axles. Since installing the axles neither he or I have broken a single one. This includes trips to moab and trails all over colorado. That right there shows these are obviously stronger than stock. What kind of proof do you want?

That is what I wanted to hear. Thank you. I'll give credit where's it due, no problem there. I just wanted to make sure these were VERY WELL tested.

 

[JWaldz]

The real problem is that y'all don't know about my secret stash of OEM CV's for $40... once that dries up this is about the only route that I will go.:boxer::vader:

or you could sell them all and afford the Lotus' axles lol...

 

[sn0wrunner]

That is what I wanted to hear. Thank you. I'll give credit where's it due, no problem there. I just wanted to make sure these were VERY WELL tested.

No doubt. I'd like to see what exactly is the breaking point of these axles. It'd be cool to test with some machinery. I'll see if we can make that happen.

 

[mark3406e]

No doubt. I'd like to see what exactly is the breaking point of these axles. It'd be cool to test with some machinery. I'll see if we can make that happen.

Since you have an inside line can you talk to them about selling just the outer end since the inner tripod is stock? That should drop the cost down which might help move even more units. Thanks.

 

[techno]

Actually, it's a very good argument. Engineers frequently design in the weak point to make it repairable (this is VERY common in the auto industry), and to achieve a single, predictable failure mode. Better to have a cheap, easy to replace component that consistently breaks at 10 imaginary strength units, than have an expensive, hard to replace one that breaks over a wide range, but averaging 14 imaginary strength units.

If you believe your point, then please don't ever design a car...

Of course I believe my point, why else would I have written it? There's nothing wrong with moving the weak point. It makes your ride more capable.

More than likely, if your stress goes beyond the original weakest link, it is probably also going to spike above the second weakest too, in which case, instead of breaking some thing like a CV that is easy to replace, you break a diff, or a DS, or a TC, or a tranny, or something else anyway.

Haha, that's a very general statement. The truth is you have no idea what the stresses are going to be and there's no way in hell you know that they are 'probably' going to spike above the mystery 2nd weak point.

Bottom line.... if you're afraid of breaking stuff, then drive accordingly, otherwise, wheel hard and have fun.

 

[smallfry]

:snacker:

 

[sn0wrunner]

Since you have an inside line can you talk to them about selling just the outer end since the inner tripod is stock? That should drop the cost down which might help move even more units. Thanks.

Yeah I think that is in the works. Cost would be much lower, labor would be the only difference.

 

[mark3406e]

Yeah I think that is in the works. Cost would be much lower, labor would be the only difference.

Cool, thanks for the response I will be watching. I will be doing something with these either way. Still way cheaper than a set from RCV.

 

[Nelsonmd]

Of course I believe my point, why else would I have written it? There's nothing wrong with moving the weak point. It makes your ride more capable.


Haha, that's a very general statement. The truth is you have no idea what the stresses are going to be and there's no way in hell you know that they are 'probably' going to spike above the mystery 2nd weak point.

Bottom line.... if you're afraid of breaking stuff, then drive accordingly, otherwise, wheel hard and have fun.

There is something wrong with moving the break point, if it makes it a less advantageous break point (i.e. more expensive component breaking, harder to replace component, does collateral damage when failing, etc.).

I have no idea of the stress, you have no idea of the stress, it's a judgment call for all of us. The difference in stress between the designed weakest point and the second weakest point is some range. As long as you are only topping out in that range, then yes, getting stronger CV's will be advantageous and get you through where your CV would have broken before. But if your stress exceeds that band without the CV's breaking first, then you will break your diff (or something else), where before your CV's would have broken first and you could replace it on the trail and continue on your way. Again, it's a judgment call, but at least present it in an informed way, don't just tell people "it's stronger!", or that legitimate risks are "ridiculous reasons not to upgrade".

I have no problem with your bottom line conclusion; wheel hard, and don't complain when you break stuff. But know the risks of both your "upgrades" and the activity.

 

[Dirtco]

Since you have an inside line can you talk to them about selling just the outer end since the inner tripod is stock? That should drop the cost down which might help move even more units. Thanks.

Yeah I think that is in the works. Cost would be much lower, labor would be the only difference.

I would defiantly be interested in this as well, keep us posted!

 

[the great him]

so what if you move the breaking point somewhere else, that just means its time to up grade that item next. look if you install a nice set of gears on a ARB diff and these axles i really dont think your are gonna be breaking too much, and if you do, i think its time you start looking a an SAS... our rigs are very capable as they sit stock, so you wheel it a bit. but you become limited on where you can go because you dont have a lift or big tires. so you put bigger tires on it, lift it up a few inches, and put some extra weight on the rig and now you have exposed the CVs as the weak point, but you are now able to get further down the trail and into new terrain that you other wise before could not access. so you know where your limit is and have fun with what you have. and once that gets old and its not "fun" any more, then you upgrade to these axles... then you get out and do more trails once again, going further and new things that you hadn't previously been able to do... then you find out that the diff and or the gears you have are holding you back, because you break that. well at this point you upgrade that to a stronger unit like an ARB, or the likes. then get back out on the trail and see what you can do and where you can go... if you break that stuff its time to seriously look at the SAS or getting a different rig.

bottom line if you are into this sport enough to be breaking CVs enough to justify getting these, or you enjoy wheeling enough to toss in a couple of ARBs in your rig then you probably really dont care about the the $500 a stick for these bab boys, and you have been waiting for something like this to come along so you can run your trails with out swapping CVs every 40min...

i for one have not spent a lot of time or intrest in putting an ARB up front just cause i know ill snap CVs left and right, but now with this out on the market, i might be changing my song and dance... i do not want to SAS my runner, i like the nice ride of the IFS, and besides i already have a SA truck... i think for most of us who actually wheel our rigs this is just the thing we have been looking for. PROPS to LD for making a set and getting them out there on the market.

are they unbreakable no, i dont think so, i mean hell ARBs are strong, and some would say they are unbreakable, but i can tell you from first hand experience that thats not true, but they also stand behind their product too... i dont think a company as small as Lotus will hang someone out to dry, they have too much riding on their products, and dont have the name like ARB, or Warn, or Toyota to tell someone "sucks for you pal, buy another set..." thats just poor customer service and i dont think they have a big enough market to start hanging their customers out to dry... not saying they are gonna bend over backwards to fix your stupidity but im sure they will work with legitimate failures if they happen.

yeah the price is kinda high, but two of these are the cost of one ARB locker... just sayin

 

[zgensler31]

Kid. That is exactly what I've been thinking. Just couldn't figure out how to say it clearly enough so as to not throw fuel on the fire. Lol thank you for that post.

 

[Nelsonmd]

Kid. That is exactly what I've been thinking. Just couldn't figure out how to say it clearly enough so as to not throw fuel on the fire. Lol thank you for that post.

I agree, very well put Kid. You are coming from the perspective of someone who understands the risks, and is ok taking them, and I think your point is correct. You understand the risk of moving the weak point, and are ok with breaking, and having the upgrade your diff (of course, as long as you don't get yourself stuck with a broken diff "further along the trail" where a rescue/tow is dangerous:lookout:, an exit strategy is a necessary part of the plan).

It is important to point out the fact that that may happen, so that newbies who don't already understand the risk of moving the weak point are at least informed of the risk. I know most guys here are in favor of safety, so I think it is not ideal to just call these things "upgrade" or say they make your rig "stronger" without disclaiming the additional risks. We should all understand the subtle safety features that are designed into these vehicles, and designed-in weak points that are easy to fix on the trail are absolutely a safety feature.

 

[LINY4Runner]

I like the idea of the replaceable outer joint, provided they're in the right price range. I would [am currently doing a] solid axle swap my truck before spending $1000 for a pair of CV axles. But if you put the outer joints in the range of 350-450 for a pair, I may just sell this mini-truck axle I have...

 

[ironhippy]

One question i haven't seen asked/answered is, are these new stronger axles ok for on-road use or are they designed for off road use only?

I know I can buy "stronger" birfields for my land cruiser, but they will wear out faster than the OEM birfs if driven on the road for any considerable amount of time.