LT Load Range E Tire on 4Runner

[MrEMan]

How did they affect your MPG?

They lowered it, but I'm afraid I can't tell you by how much ... over the years my MPG has gradually lowered due to a variety of changes. E rated tires are just one of the changes.

 

[MAST4R]

I'm running E, but only because it's the only rating available for the tire and size I wanted

Ride is firmer but not terrible. My only issue with it is how little the footprint changes when aired down. We'll see how much that changes as they break in and that will decide if I choose a lower-rated sidewall for my next tire

My D-load KO2s never changed (not 4R).

At what psi does traction improve? 20?

EDIT: clarity: I know well how traction improves in general. The point is about the specific Wildpeak E load tire.

On my D load KO2s there was literally no change until down to 20 psi. Change happens much faster with a P metric.

I am fine with traction at 28-33 in rock on the P metric only airing down to 18 once for deep volcanic ash on steep climb.

 

[NinjaOne]

My D-load KO2s never changed (not 4R).

At what psi does traction improve? 20?

Traction is improved with any drop, 10-20 PSI is usually where I target depending on what I'm doing. The Wildpeak AT3ws (also technically E-rated) would have a nice bulge at 10 psi, the Cooper STT Pro's show minimal sidewall bulge at the same pressure. Rolling over rocks/bumps you can see that it is aired down; it's just not as dramatic an effect.

 

[Inv4drZm]

My D-load KO2s never changed (not 4R).

At what psi does traction improve? 20?

I'm not sure on the traction part, where the point of diminishing returns is. But I can tell you from 20 to 15 there is a difference in ride smoothness driving over bumps and rocks.

The tradeoff is a more exposed/lower sidewall that could be cut up or gashed more by rocks so use a sturdy tire.

 

[wracks03s]

i have 285 bfg's on mine that are e rated and I love them. the handling is better with stiffer sidewalls. they work great off road as well. I drive the hell out of mine so they work great.

 

[MAST4R]

Traction is improved with any drop, 10-20 PSI is usually where I target depending on what I'm doing. The Wildpeak AT3ws (also technically E-rated) would have a nice bulge at 10 psi, the Cooper STT Pro's show minimal sidewall bulge at the same pressure. Rolling over rocks/bumps you can see that it is aired down; it's just not as dramatic an effect.

I'm not sure on the traction part, where the point of diminishing returns is. But I can tell you from 20 to 15 there is a difference in ride smoothness driving over bumps and rocks.

The tradeoff is a more exposed/lower sidewall that could be cut up or gashed more by rocks so use a sturdy tire.

My bad, my question was related specifically to the E-load Wildpeak.

The point is that with D/E traction on vehicles much lighter than the intended ones is not improved until you get down to about 20 psi, which was my experience with D load KO2s. So I wondered if the E load Wildpeak acts the same on 4Runners.

Let's leave the soft stuff aside, that requires low pressures anyway.

In rock, D/E load maybe requires lower pressures whereas P does not. If I can do Broken Arrow and Fins and Things at 33 psi and Crown King at 28 without spinning anywhere (using the locker on the worst spots), I can drive anything else I care to drive in the desert without running out of traction at street pressures (in dry weather). I saw lesser trucks spin like crazy where the 4Runner just went up with no fuss (Submarine Rock at Broken Arrow). So, the excellent platform + P metric tire = good enough.

And so, even if the sidewall of D/E is indeed stronger, what's the benefit?

They need the stronger sidewall because they need to be aired down to 20 or less because they are far too stiff for the vehicle to provide good traction at higher pressures.

So, it seems like a self-fulfilled prophecy to me.

I am not saying P metric is perfect, but the issue is another one: getting tread punctures when running higher pressures on trails with sharp rocks. Small rocks but sharp. But this has only happened to me in the Sonoran desert, no issues in Utah, Montana, or the rest of Arizona. I will probably experiment running 25 psi on the worst ones, though we only got one puncture.

Unfortunately, there is no way to get definitive answers. Tire makers tell me bits and pieces when I email but they would never go as far as I want to know over email...

EDIT: smoothness is obvious. E-load must be aired down or else. This is why I was determined to try and get a P metric that is strong enough (or LT-C). Mandatory airing down even on the easiest dirt roads is tedious, did it for 3 years and did not enjoy it.

Also, a dedicated trail rig would be a different story. MT tires are always E rated from what I have seen. I am talking multi-purpose 4Runner that sees serious but not crazy offroad conditions.

 

[MAST4R]

Also, while Falken insists that LT-C and P Wildpeaks are the same strength offroad, just LT-C better for towing, Discount Tire tells me that since plies are thicker as you move from P up to E, they should also be stronger.

It is still up to us to make choices based on limited information. I would put E load on a dedicated trail rig but for now I will stick with P metric Wildpeaks on mine. If I get more punctures than I like, I will move up to LT-C.

The cost of a new spare when moving between P and LT is also a factor for me since I buy tires often anyway.

 

[Inv4drZm]

Let's leave the soft stuff aside, that requires low pressures anyway.

The soft stuff is about the only time you need traction from your tires. Anything else, anything in Moab, you can do with any set of tires, all the rocks are well rounded and like sandpaper, tons of grip. No worries about gashing there. To me, traction means mud cleanout and maybe softness of tread helps a little. All the trails around where I live are always muddy and have sharp rocks, and in Colorado to some extent too.

Are you thinking that P-rated grips around rocks better the D/E for a given pressure, that's what gives it better traction?

For a multipurpose 4Runner that drives miles to and from wheeling spots I would personally take stronger tires than hope a P rated was up to the task, even if it rode better.

But if they work for you then no need to change.

 

[MAST4R]

The soft stuff is about the only time you need traction from your tires. Anything else, anything in Moab, you can do with any set of tires, all the rocks are well rounded and like sandpaper, tons of grip.

...

Are you thinking that P-rated grips around rocks better the D/E for a given pressure, that's what gives it better traction?

.

Fun discussion! I agree with your bottom line about Utah but the devil is in the detail.

Mud is mud. Different story, I can totally see an MT and E-load there. I can do reasonable mud when needed but try to avoid mud. Not a fan.

On slickrock any tire will do if you have a quality 4x4 system--easy to say from a 4Runner perspective!--and enough contact patch. If either one does not suffice, airing down is the only way.

Yes, I am thinking that a P-metric will always provide better traction than an LT-D/E at the same pressure because it is softer and thus offers greater contact patch. The price you pay is more sidewall exposure on typically weaker sidewalls. And then also pinch flats. And then they blame the tire. This is why people should not air down unnecessarily on P-metric tires. I would stay 25 and up. Soft sand is different.

I have 2,800 unpaved miles in Southern Utah, more than anywhere else, with no punctures. Most were on P-metric tires. 550 of them were on the 4R and the Wildpeaks including to the furthest point of the Maze. We do not do "hardcore" stuff but we go out whenever we can.

Central Arizona is much harsher on the tires and the 4x4 systems alike. There are a few great dirt roads, but beyond that the rocks are sharp and nasty and they do not provide traction like sandstone does. They do make for serious traction challenges. The sand is coarse and is often mixed with small rocks making for a constant beating of the kind that rarely happens in Utah. It does not seem like much but if it is uphill, you need something more than just 4x4 with low range and open diffs (whether it be traction control, locker, or low tire pressures). And there are more types of AZ terrain where traction is an issue.

Here is where I see the LT-D/E advantage:

--You drive terrain so hard, you need to drive on the sidewalls. That means body damage risk is very real, so not my fare.

--You drive rocks so steep and jumbled, you need the strongest of tires and lowest of pressures and beadlock wheels. That's the sport of rock crawling so not applicable here.

--You need to drive in soft sand a lot. This is where I totally don't see the P metric advantage. You have to air down anyway and you have to expose your sidewalls. Better go for LT-C minimum, LT-D/E better for remote areas.

--You have a built rig, travel really heavy, and or tow a lot, especially offroad. So if you are Jason, I don't see the P metric advantage at all.

--Obviously, if you have no good options in your tire size in less than LT-D.

So, yes, I can see how for some forum members the E/D advantage is very real, but not for all, not even for all who do a lot of dirt miles.

 

[Inv4drZm]

Fun discussion! I agree with your bottom line about Utah but the devil is in the detail.

Mud is mud. Different story, I can totally see an MT and E-load there. I can do reasonable mud when needed but try to avoid mud. Not a fan.

On slickrock any tire will do if you have a quality 4x4 system--easy to say from a 4Runner perspective!--and enough contact patch. If either one does not suffice, airing down is the only way.

Yes, I am thinking that a P-metric will always provide better traction than an LT-D/E at the same pressure because it is softer and thus offers greater contact patch. The price you pay is more sidewall exposure on typically weaker sidewalls. And then also pinch flats. And then they blame the tire. This is why people should not air down unnecessarily on P-metric tires. I would stay 25 and up. Soft sand is different.

I have 2,800 unpaved miles in Southern Utah, more than anywhere else, with no punctures. Most were on P-metric tires. 550 of them were on the 4R and the Wildpeaks including to the furthest point of the Maze. We do not do "hardcore" stuff but we go out whenever we can.

Central Arizona is much harsher on the tires and the 4x4 systems alike. There are a few great dirt roads, but beyond that the rocks are sharp and nasty and they do not provide traction like sandstone does. They do make for serious traction challenges. The sand is coarse and is often mixed with small rocks making for a constant beating of the kind that rarely happens in Utah. It does not seem like much but if it is uphill, you need something more than just 4x4 with low range and open diffs (whether it be traction control, locker, or low tire pressures). And there are more types of AZ terrain where traction is an issue.

Here is where I see the LT-D/E advantage:

--You drive terrain so hard, you need to drive on the sidewalls. That means body damage risk is very real, so not my fare.

--You drive rocks so steep and jumbled, you need the strongest of tires and lowest of pressures and beadlock wheels. That's the sport of rock crawling so not applicable here.

--You need to drive in soft sand a lot. This is where I totally don't see the P metric advantage. You have to air down anyway and you have to expose your sidewalls. Better go for LT-C minimum, LT-D/E better for remote areas.

--You have a built rig, travel really heavy, and or tow a lot, especially offroad. So if you are Jason, I don't see the P metric advantage at all.

--Obviously, if you have no good options in your tire size in less than LT-D.

So, yes, I can see how for some forum members the E/D advantage is very real.

Just curious what tire size you run? Something around 33" might be harsher than a comparable 35" tire. I don't see much discussion about this and it may cause some discrepancy, not sure.

As far as contact patch, physics says it's only a function of vehicle weight and tire pressure, nothing to do with P vs E though in the real world maybe it is different, its not like anybody actually measures it. Then there's the argument when airing down you are only really increasing the patch area front to back and does that actually gain you anything or does it hurt you having less total force/sq in. Probably depends on the terrain.

Anyway, that's about the extent of my knowledge on the subject. More questions than answers... A bit off-topic too.

 

[MAST4R]

Just curious what tire size you run? Something around 33" might be harsher than a comparable 35" tire. I don't see much discussion about this and it may cause some discrepancy, not sure.

As far as contact patch, physics says it's only a function of vehicle weight and tire pressure, nothing to do with P vs E though in the real world maybe it is different, its not like anybody actually measures it. Then there's the argument when airing down you are only really increasing the patch area front to back and does that actually gain you anything or does it hurt you having less total force/sq in. Probably depends on the terrain.

Anyway, that's about the extent of my knowledge on the subject. More questions than answers... A bit off-topic too.

Yeah, I have zero education in any related area...but have read what there is to read, so I am a somewhat informed amateur, which is not much!

Yes, the idea is that contact patch increases front to back.

I run P265 70 17.

That's a great point about tire size. You should be right about bigger being better but I had not considered that at all.

As for traction, there is the whole issue of whether lifted rigs need more traction but that is completely off topic.