New Yorkers... Give up your guns.

[zopperman]

I'm gonna assume that was directed at me. You don't think guns are used for good in this country? Or worldwide? There are tens of thousands of instances every year where a firearm in the hands of a good guy either saved a life, stopped a crime, or let a good guy make it home to their family.

Regarding the economy, where do you think these weapons are made? In America by Americans. It's a booming business and one of the few American manufacturing fields still left in this nation.

I would love to see data on this. Not saying you're wrong at all, I'm just genuinely curious to see if the number of these incidents is as high as one would imagine. I subscribed to the American Rifleman (I think that's the name, I don't get it anymore since my NRA card lapsed) and I see the "armed citizen" portion and I always remember thinking that there was a pretty low number of these instances. If I were writing a magazine like that I would want to highlight as many as possible, not just 5 or so that I recalled seeing. I may not be 100% on that so correct me if I'm wrong. I know it's not the only source of data on that subject, but it's really hard to find.

Data is based on proxies, political lobbies and other organizations that prevent the acquisition of clear and true data. I'm doing my thesis on a gun related program and I can tell you first hand how horrible, inaccurate and difficult to work with the data is.

It is very easy to make these numbers say what you want for either side. All the research is sponsored by partisan organizations and it's hard to find independent studies, I find myself continually taking many of these statistics with a grain of salt.

ETA: Here's an NYT article that speaks to this

The National Rifle Association maintains a blog called The Armed Citizen, which highlights defensive gun use. The latest entry, from April 9, describes three incidents: Two from 2013 and one archival example from 1969. It’s not hard to see what the NRA’s getting at, but just in case, a sidebar on the site states: “Studies indicate that firearms are used over 2 million times a year for personal protection, and that the presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances.” In other words, as Wayne LaPierre put it after Newtown, “the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

That’s almost as catchy as “guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” The problem is: The 2 million figure — often inflated to 2.5 million in N.R.A. literature — is bogus. Defensive gun use is actually quite rare.

A new paper from the Violence Policy Center states that “for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.” That comes to an annual average of 67,740 — not nothing, but nowhere near the N.R.A.’s 2 million or 2.5 million.

Readers can judge for themselves whether the V.P.C. or the N.R.A. is likely to have better numbers. The V.P.C. used data from the National Crime Victimization Survey, conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. The N.R.A.’s estimate is the result of a telephone survey conducted by a Florida State University criminologist.

The V.P.C. also found that in 2010 “there were only 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm” reported to the F.B.I.’s Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Compare that with the number of criminal gun homicides in the same year: 8,275. (That’s not counting gun suicides or unintentional shootings.) Or compare it with the number of Americans killed by guns since Newtown: 3,458.

As the V.P.C. paper states, “guns are rarely used to kill criminals or stop crimes.”

 

[WFO_Racer]

Straw man arguments aside, unfettered access to assault weapons (quotation marks or otherwise) is indeed an extremist view and you're in the minority. The inability to acknowledge that and explore more tactful ways of protecting what you believe in is troubling to say the least.

Like others have told you,

Shall Not Be Infringed......

 

[zopperman]

I was telling a liberal parent at my kids school, if you remove the minorities from the equation the figures are even more eye opening.

In what way?

 

[JBecker]

I would love to see data on this. Not saying you're wrong at all, I'm just genuinely curious to see if the number of these incidents is as high as one would imagine. I subscribed to the American Rifleman (I think that's the name, I don't get it anymore since my NRA card lapsed) and I see the "armed citizen" portion and I always remember thinking that there was a pretty low number of these instances. If I were writing a magazine like that I would want to highlight as many as possible, not just 5 or so that I recalled seeing. I may not be 100% on that so correct me if I'm wrong. I know it's not the only source of data on that subject, but it's really hard to find.

Data is based on proxies, political lobbies and other organizations that prevent the acquisition of clear and true data. I'm doing my thesis on a gun related program and I can tell you first hand how horrible, inaccurate and difficult to work with the data is.

It is very easy to make these numbers say what you want for either side. All the research is sponsored by partisan organizations and it's hard to find independent studies, I find myself continually taking many of these statistics with a grain of salt.

I'm not gonna spoon feed anyone info. But if you are genuinely curious I suggest looking at the FBI website for self defense shootings and officer involved shootings. Also realize the number of incidents every year where not a shot is fired but the presence of superior firepower was enough to diffuse the situation.

A firearm is a tool. Nothing more. It can be used for good or evil. What some fail to realize is that the criminal element is just that, a force that works outside the laws set in place to keep order.

 

[Dirtyfingers]

This.

 

[zopperman]

I'm not gonna spoon feed anyone info. But if you are genuinely curious I suggest looking at the FBI website for self defense shootings and officer involved shootings. Also realize the number of incidents every year where not a shot is fired but the presence of superior firepower was enough to diffuse the situation.

A firearm is a tool. Nothing more. It can be used for good or evil. What some fail to realize is that the criminal element is just that, a force that works outside the laws set in place to keep order.

I agree with the second part of what you said. I don't want to turn this into stat 101 but I just wanted to point out that the data sucks

 

[JBecker]

I agree with the second part of what you said. I don't want to turn this into stat 101 but I just wanted to point out that the data sucks

I wouldn't say that the FBI's data on violent crime sucks

 

[Jumpkix]

When I heard about this, I immediately joined the NRA and more importantly, the Oregon Firearms Federation.

 

[ndcent]

Like others have told you,

Shall Not Be Infringed......

Your interpretation of centuries old text doesn't supercede mine.

The argument that anyone should be able to own any firearm "because freedom" is as laughable as it is scary.

 

[LINY4Runner]

Let's make high capacity magazines and assault rifles illegal...it worked for heroin, right?

 

[LINY4Runner]

Interesting that people are concerned about the new law in NYC, yet LINYRunner talks about owning an assault rifle. Doesn't sound like that bad in NY after all.

I do own what the media would label as an "assault" rifle, yes. For me it's a sporting and defense rifle. I also said that I was non-compliant with the SAFE Act. So technically speaking it shouldn't have a collapsible stock, 30-round magazines, angled foregrip, laser sight, etc. It's also supposed to be registered at which time I'd go through roughly the same interviews someone does as when they try to join the police force. Then they'll know where to find my rifle when the NYC fever spreads.

Nope not me.

Shall not be infringed.

 

[RunninInGA]

Your interpretation of centuries old text doesn't supercede mine.

The argument that anyone should be able to own any firearm "because freedom" is as laughable as it is scary.

Congratulations! You've completed Indoctrination 101. Please sign here so we can mail your certificate of completion.

 

[ndcent]

I went to my first gun show the other day. It was fun, bought a couple things then went to the indoor range. Anyways...the people watching was really the most interesting. 85% of the crowd was normal looking polite hobbyists like myself but that fringe element there. The camo wearing thousand yard stare agent orange dudes at the propaganda and bumper sticker tables.

I feel you guys are that 15%. Cheers!

 

[JBecker]

Haha

 

[RunninInGA]

I went to my first gun show the other day. It was fun, bought a couple things then went to the indoor range. Anyways...the people watching was really the most interesting. 85% of the crowd was normal looking polite hobbyists like myself but that fringe element there. The camo wearing thousand yard stare agent orange dudes at the propaganda and bumper sticker tables.

I feel you guys are that 15%. Cheers!

Is everyone who disagrees with you considered a fringe element / hillbilly / redneck / extremist or just us here on T4R?

 

[Thai]

I'd rather not hide behind a Constitutional amendment; I'd rather let my arguments succeed or fail at the ballot box. I'd rather see people take an honest look at the data, face the societal toll that comes with individual choices like gun ownership, and own up to it.

Lets face it, most Americans don't do any research nor data-finding. Look at who "we" voted into the White House!

What good is the Constitution if we cannot refer to it in times of need? Why are we throwing away the basic laws that made our nation great? Should we all listen blindly to Congress or the President and disregard the past? Because they have never made an idiotic policy in their life? History repeats itself i am told...so, shouldn't we at least understand our past to be prepared for the future?

 

[LINY4Runner]

I went to my first gun show the other day. It was fun, bought a couple things then went to the indoor range. Anyways...the people watching was really the most interesting. 85% of the crowd was normal looking polite hobbyists like myself but that fringe element there. The camo wearing thousand yard stare agent orange dudes at the propaganda and bumper sticker tables.

I feel you guys are that 15%. Cheers!

Do you post in the 3rd Gen forum or just troll the off-topic section?

 

[KidVermicious]

You guys know he's trolling you, right? He can't debate to save his life and has gotten his ass kicked every time he's tried, so instead he gets his rocks off by riling people up and derailing threads. He wants attention, and he wants to get under your skin. If you ignore him, you stop rewarding him, and eventually he'll wander away.

 

[LINY4Runner]

Lets face it, most Americans don't do any research nor data-finding. Look at who "we" voted into the White House!

What good is the Constitution if we cannot refer to it in times of need? Why are we throwing away the basic laws that made our nation great? Should we all listen blindly to Congress or the President and disregard the past? Because they have never made an idiotic policy in their life? History repeats itself i am told...so, shouldn't we at least understand our past to be prepared for the future?

You will likely never hear me say this aside from this one post but....


I agree with Thai. :tape:

 

[bofa]

Okay fellas, you are getting dragged into the same tired debate with the same half-freedom advocates again.

They won't get their Pelosi panties in a bunch until "high capacity" includes derringers and 6-shooters and we're all trying to find DeSantis holsters for our muskets.