New Yorkers... Give up your guns.

[hikenbike]

Why would a person carrying a firearm affect your desire to go out to lunch with them? My uncle carries and I've never worried about it. He's still doing his thing and hasn't harmed any civilians his entire life.

I'm not worried at all. Hate to see him get arrested is all.

First round is on me. Second round too if he gets busted.

 

[hikenbike]

Ahhhhhhh I guess they are unless you are being chased by biker gangs in broad daylight for 45 minutes throughout NYC, even with hundreds of calls to the police .... no police arrived to intervene.

Was waiting for this one.

Generally excellent. Not perfect. Its a "big bad" place with its obvious challenges.

And without a fence around it, mind you, so anyone is welcomed to leave at anytime should they dislike it.

 

[RunninInGA]

Criminals are the responsibility of law enforcement. I do live in a different world than you. The LE around me (live, work, and play in NJ and NYC) is responsive and generally excellent.

I want the guy who's carrying anywhere near my kids, sitting next to me at my next Devil, Ranger, Giant, Jet game, on my subway train, and in my work place to be EXTREMELY qualified to do so. You have a problem with having that expectation?

No problems with your expectation at all.

I fail to see how making it more difficult for the law abiding citizen to remain compliant will affect the criminal element that isn't going to give 2 sh1ts for your additional levels of licensure. All those increased regulations will do is make it easier for criminals to take advantage of those that cannot or will not go through your licensure process. I don't see any positive affects this will have to the gun violence problem you guys seem to think permeates this country.

 

[hikenbike]

Criminals are the responsibility of law enforcement. Fact. But criminals are not criminals until they commit a crime. The police are rarely there in time to stop a crime, but are always there to investigate and mop the blood off the floors. That is why we carry. Average 911 response is over 15 minutes. Average .40 response time is 1100 feet per second.

As for the second statement, I fully back that as well. I would like anyone carrying to be vigilant, accurate, smart and well-trained. I'd also like to assume that most CCW holders are just that. There are a good handful of punks who carry to carry, but for the most part, the people who legally carry are the ones who know the responsibility associated with carrying a handgun.

Are there reliable stats one way or the other that show those that carry preventing or thwart crimes as opposed to bringing another gun to a criminal situation and aggravating and/or escalating it?

As for the second statement, I fully back that as well. I would like anyone carrying to be vigilant, accurate, smart and well-trained. I'd also like to assume that most CCW holders are just that. There are a good handful of punks who carry to carry, but for the most part, the people who legally carry are the ones who know the responsibility associated with carrying a handgun.

I don't want to "like" or "assume". Thats not good enough. It should be demanded, required, and a comprehensively foolproof process. You pass, carry away. If not, can't carry. Those that care enough will have no problem with it.

 

[hikenbike]

No problems with your expectation at all.

I fail to see how making it more difficult for the law abiding citizen to remain compliant will affect the criminal element that isn't going to give 2 sh1ts for your additional levels of licensure. All those increased regulations will do is make it easier for criminals to take advantage of those that cannot or will not go through your licensure process. I don't see any positive affects this will have to the gun violence problem you guys seem to think permeates this country.

Because you don't know who's law abiding and competent or not until they go through it.

Criminals are criminals because there are not rules for them. Remove that expectation across the board.

I'm not "you guys". This is just me. I don't believe there is a gun violence problem. I think if everyone can carry anywhere they like without appropriate process, there WILL be a problem.

 

[RunninInGA]

Because you don't know who's law abiding and competent or not until they go through it.

Criminals are criminals because there are not rules for them. Remove that expectation across the board.

I'm not "you guys". This is just me. I don't believe there is a gun violence problem. I think if everyone can carry anywhere they like without appropriate process, there WILL be a problem.

Gotcha. Make up more rules for everyone to follow, particularly the guy wanting to protect himself from the guy wanting to rob the store.

If your wishes were granted, how would this help society in your opinion?

 

[LandCruiser]

Because you don't know who's law abiding and competent or not until they go through it.

Criminals are criminals because there are not rules for them. Remove that expectation across the board.

I'm not "you guys". This is just me. I don't believe there is a gun violence problem. I think if everyone can carry anywhere they like without appropriate process, there WILL be a problem.

Why will there be a problem?

Will young husbands no longer get shot in front of their wives, or beaten by a biker gang?

If you feel safer knowing that law abiding people don't have access to weapons to defend themselves, that's on you. They're not the ones you have to worry about, and they're the ones whose rights you want to strip away. There will be no wild west gun battles. You won't have to worry about a CCW holder pulling a gun on you, rather you will have to worry about a shitbag who has no respect for the law or how many rounds are in a magazine.

God help you if you're ever home and someone kicks the door in and all you can do is scream "this is a gun free zone, I'm calling the police!" at the top of your lungs.

 

[hikenbike]

Gotcha. Make up more rules for everyone to follow, particularly the guy wanting to protect himself from the guy wanting to rob the store.

If your wishes were granted, how would this help society in your opinion?

It would ensure the guy carrying the gun to protect himself (and others) when someone is robbing the store is completely qualified and skilled to do so.

 

[hikenbike]

Why will there be a problem?

Will young husbands no longer get shot in front of their wives, or beaten by a biker gang?

If you feel safer knowing that law abiding people don't have access to weapons to defend themselves, that's on you. They're not the ones you have to worry about, and they're the ones whose rights you want to strip away. There will be no wild west gun battles. You won't have to worry about a CCW holder pulling a gun on you, rather you will have to worry about a shitbag who has no respect for the law or how many rounds are in a magazine.

God help you if you're ever home and someone kicks the door in and all you can do is scream "this is a gun free zone, I'm calling the police!" at the top of your lungs.

If you carry, you will find trouble or trouble will find you IMO. You're just as likely to embolden and challenge those without one than deter anything. Where there was perhaps no gun, there is now that you brought one. Where they have a gun and want to do you harm, they have the lopsided advantage anyway. Just my opinion.

IMO, human nature is far more powerful and, with many (perhaps most) citizens being very imperfect, with guns in the hands of good guys and bad guys, or even one OR the other, bad things will happen more often than not where perhaps otherwise they wouldn't at all or to a lesser extent. Situations where they actually deter are likely in the minority. This is only my opinion.

I think I'm done here. Have a nice night all.

 

[nodixe]

I think the reason you are running into a wall here is because you assume there should be a debate or enlightened discussion about gun control but that is not an option untill we see a full reinstatement of 2a rights. Its pretty simple: the right to bear arms and band together in defense of the constitution. Period. And it is foolish to compare guns to auto or hospital deaths because firearms are far more integral to our way of life since it is all predicated on a free society defended by its armed citizenship (There's an actual reason for the 2a lol). There is no mention of registration or restriction. Who owns guns and what kind is none of the govt business and that scope of inquiry has no place in a free society. If removing these restrictions makes you feel less safe thats acceptable because we are land of the free not land of the safe. Period.

 

[BrianSD_42]

I think the reason you are running into a wall here is because you assume there should be a debate or enlightened discussion about gun control but that is not an option untill we see a full reinstatement of 2a rights.

That makes no sense.

 

[JBecker]

Are there reliable stats one way or the other that show those that carry preventing or thwart crimes as opposed to bringing another gun to a criminal situation and aggravating and/or escalating it?

When seconds count, the police are minutes away.

Regarding statistics on concealed handgun permit holders (being that I am Mr Statistics and all)

Texas study showing permit holders commit less than 1% of crime: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2011.pdf

FBI data on justifiable homicide: FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data Table 15

If you want stories about a good guy with a gun stopping a crime, you are gonna have to do your own research there. There are a lot of misconstrued sources out there pushing numbers they like. If there was a solid source for that info, I would post it. There, google is your friend.

Now, here is something that is a bit controversial, since cause does not necessarily lead to effect here. Since 1991, the violent crime rate has decreased in this country drastically. Conversely 23 states have added "shall issue" carry laws bringing the total number of states up to 41. Also, at the same time approx. 100 million additional firearms have been added into private circulation since then. So while other factors can also be attributed to the reduction in violent crime, it would seem for certain that an increase in people carrying, and an increase in firearms, didn't relate to an increase in crime as our opponents had feared. They still try to play on that fear today, knowing it is a bold faced lie.

 

[JBecker]

And again, my comparison of automobile deaths and gun deaths was merely to show that fear of being shot by someone isn't a rational fear. Not when you are nearly 3 times as likely to die on your way to work. None of us bat an eye when we do that daily.

 

[02SE]

Are there reliable stats one way or the other that show those that carry preventing or thwart crimes as opposed to bringing another gun to a criminal situation and aggravating and/or escalating it?

Quote that I already posted in the thread about the latest School shooting in Colorado:

So Colorado passes ridiculously restrictive gun laws... they do not prevent another school shooting... cops take 14 minutes to show up... yet miraculously the shooting is over in 80 seconds because shooter takes his own life when he realizes he is cornered by an armed resource officer who is on the staff... and the shooter is a proud socialist... and the mainstream media doesn't have a whole lot to say about it because a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun... it flies in the face of their agenda.

 

[hikenbike]

Quote that I already posted in the thread about the latest School shooting in Colorado:

How does anyone know the kid took his own life out of fear of the armed person?

Proud socialist? Was this statement meant seriously? He was a teenage kid who had a bad stretch and lost it.

 

[02SE]

How does anyone know the kid took his own life out of fear of the armed person?

One thing is certain, as soon as he encountered the armed School Resource Officer, he used his own gun on himself. Clearly amongst the problems he had, he was also a coward.

Proud socialist? Was this statement meant seriously? He was a teenage kid who had a bad stretch and lost it.

According to numerous accounts and interviews from fellow students at the School, he was very outspoken about his political views, and referred to himself as a "proud socialist".


You could have easily answered these questions for yourself, if you had bothered to look.

 

[RunninInGA]

It would ensure the guy carrying the gun to protect himself (and others) when someone is robbing the store is completely qualified and skilled to do so.

Asinine, but you are entitled to your opinion.

What do we do about the guy robbing the store - hope and pray he doesn't see us and want our watches, wallets, or lives while doing so? I once heard that we should scream something about being on our periods or something.

 

[BrianSD_42]

[MENTION=96581]hikenbike[/MENTION] & anyone else who is in favor of new gun legislation ...


Q: What do you think about the fact that the myths below have been debunked?

Q: What justification is there for new laws now that we know the solutions proposed so far by those in favor of legislative action, will not solve the problem?


I have this conversation with my parents as well because they are in favor of new gun laws yet I am not.

I just read this:

Everything You Think You Know about Mass Murder Is Wrong

Link ----> Mass shootings in America: Northeastern criminologists James Alan Fox, Monica J. DeLateur in Homicide Studies refute common myths about mass murder.


It is explaining a new study that debunks the idea that mass murder has been increasing. There were several articles released after Newtown that manipulated statistics to show an increase when none existed.

Here is the study ----> Mass Shootings in America: Moving Beyond Newtown



It addresses each of these myths and debunks them individually:

* Myth: Mass Murderers Snap and Kill Indiscriminately
* Myth: Mass Shootings Are on the Rise
* Myth: Recent Mass Murders Involve Record-Setting Body Counts
* Myth: Violent Entertainment, Especially Video Games, Are Causally Linked to Mass Murder
* Myth: Greater Attention and Response to the Telltale Warning Signs Will Allow Us to Identify Would-Be Mass Killers Before They Act
* Myth: Widening the Availability of Mental Health Services Will Allow Unstable Individuals to Get the Treatment They Need and Avert Mass Murders
* Myth: Enhanced Background Checks Will Keep Dangerous Weapons Out of the Hands of These Madmen
* Myth: Restoring the Federal Ban on Assault Weapons Will Prevent These Horrible Crimes

* Myth: Expanding “Right to Carry” Provisions Will Deter Mass Killers or at Least Stop Them in Their Tracks and Reduce the Body Counts
* Myth: Increasing Physical Security in Schools and Other Places Will Prevent Mass Murder
* Myth: Having Armed Guards at Every School Will Serve to Protect Students From an Active Shooter and Provide a Deterrent as Well



Conclusion ---> see link above

 

[RunninInGA]

[MENTION=96581]hikenbike[/MENTION] & anyone else who is in favor of new gun legislation ...


Q: What do you think about the fact that the myths below have been debunked?

Q: What justification is there for new laws now that we know the solutions proposed so far by those in favor of legislative action, will not solve the problem?


I have this conversation with my parents as well because they are in favor of new gun laws yet I am not.

Good question Brian. My gut tells me "they" haven't read and will not easily consider this information as accurate because it isn't aligning with what they hear and read from their particular brand of news.

This is and always has been an "us" versus "them" situation and unfortunately the last 6 or so years in this country have served to divide us into a thousand different "us's" and "them's".

 

[hikenbike]

[MENTION=96581]hikenbike[/MENTION] & anyone else who is in favor of new gun legislation ...


Q: What do you think about the fact that the myths below have been debunked?

Q: What justification is there for new laws now that we know the solutions proposed so far by those in favor of legislative action, will not solve the problem?


I have this conversation with my parents as well because they are in favor of new gun laws yet I am not.

I agree as I don't see mass killings as a problem.

I support strong and recurring background checks generally as I said earlier.

Respect your parents and don't discuss this kind of stuff with family. It will never lead to anything good.