No Acceleration, 10mpg?

[Ryanincc]

Update. The shop has said its the timing. But in order to find out what messed up the timing they have to dig into it. Total cost, depending on what parts have failed, 500-1200$. Shitty thing is they still haven't worked on it. They've had it for over 10 days. Its really messing up my home life having just one vehicle, especially with school starting soon for my little ones.
Im supposed to call them in the morning to see where they are at. If they can't get to it, Im going to take it to a different shop that I used to business with. Im not thrilled about that option, since I never was too pleased with their work either

 

[Ryanincc]

If your timing was off that much to give you the issues you are speaking of it would not just happen all of the sudden. Timing does not one day decide its going to jump and be off... Has anyone been into the motor recently say replacing a water pump or timing belt ect? I don't buy the timing being off for one min. And if I was you I'd grab my truck from said shop its in now and run.... Go take it to a good shop that specializes in Toyotas or the dealer. IF the belt some how managed to jump that much to give the symptoms you are describing then the belt would be chewed up and your truck would not run at all... I have seen these motors be one or two teeth off and still run OK, sure they seam to stumble a little bit and are a little sluggish but run OK otherwise... To be as bad as you are stating you would be throwing a code if it was timing

Wel, my mpg and power loss has come over 6 months or so. Only recently the acceleration was so noticeable that a non-owner would notice. Then it just got really bad. just over a couple days it got so bad that I wouldn't drive it anymore.

Can towing a 3000# popup camper mess up the timing? That is the only common factor I see between the times I have had the issue. I know the timing chain cover, well that whole front end kit has been done twice in 5 years at different shops. Water pump, chain etc. Last time was just a really bad oil leak IIRC. Im thinking it may not JUST be the timing or something else entirely as I have little faith in the shop its at anymore. Im leaning towards the injectors mentioned before here as those are the only "pending" codes Ive gotten. I would think the timing, as bad as it was running would throw some kind of CEL.

 

[Ryanincc]

I had an issue a few months back with power loss, a low/rough idle, and no check engine light. Every so often it would throw codes P0300 (random cylinder misfire) and P0301 (cylinder 1 misfire). It took me two weeks to diagnose it, but turned out to be an injector. I am a service advisor at a toyota dealer by the way, and using a tech stream, and involving more than 1 of my techs. If your ignition system is good, exhaust flow is good, and fuel system is good, start checking injectors. If i remember right you said you got codes once for 300 and 303. Unplug the #3 injector and see if the idle or anything changes. Mine was still flowing enough fuel to keep me from getting a misfire code all the time, but not flowing enough to run right. If you get a change when unplugging an injector, plug it back in and try another one. It doesnt sound like a real sophisticated way to diagnose, and I could be way off, but its worth a shot.

I usually get 301 pending every month or so, usually after doing a lot of stop and go followed by some freeway driving. Only once did I get the 300 303 pending and that was recent and I had just pulled on the freeway. Right before the acceleration got really bad. Im not sure I follow, on testing the injectors. If I unplugged one, Im sure it would run worse, so how would I know its the culprit? The shop and the dealership both told me they checked the injectors, but who knows anymore considering the luck Ive got thus far on this issue. You could easily be right.

 

[eplanajr]

Injectors can be temperamental.

Your timing is what it is. It shouldn't be changing one minute and changing another.

 

[the great him]

fuel filter was replaced last when?

 

[Ryanincc]

Update: I'm sitting at the dealership now waiting on the shuttle to take me home. Seems you guys are right about it NOT being the timing. The shop took it apart and found nothing wrong. At this point they said all they could do is throw parts at it because they can't figure it out. They ended up only charging me $80 for the fuel filter replacement. Dealership says they can't get to it until Monday so my fingers are crossed I won't have to càncel a third camping trip on Labor Day weekend. The service advisor has been really cool with me and seems genuinely sympathetic. Most of my fear of being run off from the dealership by pricing me out has settled due to his concern.

 

[Ryanincc]

Dealership just called to tell me they squeezed me in a little earlier than expected. They weren't sure why yet, but they said they are getting low compression across all cylinders. Anybody know what could cause that? Sounds like it could be some kind of catastrophic engine failure although it starts and sounds just fine. But I'm basing that mostly on how my luck has been with the truck over the last 5 years since getting it rebuilt. Can anyone alleviate my fear of having to get another engine put in?

 

[BrianSD_42]

I don't know dude but there are lots of cheap wrecked 4runners in Texas you could use for the engine swap.

Have you taken it to a different mechanic?

 

[02SE]

Dealership just called to tell me they squeezed me in a little earlier than expected. They weren't sure why yet, but they said they are getting low compression across all cylinders. Anybody know what could cause that? Sounds like it could be some kind of catastrophic engine failure although it starts and sounds just fine. But I'm basing that mostly on how my luck has been with the truck over the last 5 years since getting it rebuilt. Can anyone alleviate my fear of having to get another engine put in?

There is no way for me to determine anything, without having the vehicle in front of me to test.

My question would be whether or not they tested the compression properly. I would hope Dealership Mechanics would be competent, but I remember a few from my own Dealership days, who weren't competent.

There are several possibilities, none of which I can determine over the 'Net. I hope you find a resolution.

 

[Ryanincc]

I don't know dude but there are lots of cheap wrecked 4runners in Texas you could use for the engine swap.

Have you taken it to a different mechanic?

Just the one shop, but this is the second time its been at the dealership. The first time was more of a free check to do me a favor and i don't know how far they dug into it. Im sure they are getting deeper this time. I know ill find out pretty soon whats wrong, but my stomach is in knots waiting for the diagnosis.

 

[Ryanincc]

There are several possibilities, none of which I can determine over the 'Net. I hope you find a resolution.

You don't have to elaborate or anything, but could you list a couple?

 

[eplanajr]

Generally speaking low compression would be seen on just about any engine with some age. That's why ANY engine with 20k miles runs feels like a 200k mile engine that drank some Barry Bonds Koolaid.

Here's a few and most common...

- Valve lash adjustment off (no parts, invovled other than gaskets)
- Valve seals bad (would commonly encounter a puff a blue smoke when you fire her up in the morning or after sitting a few hours) (new valve seals and gaskets)
- Piston rings gap is too wide (could be improper filing of rings, or worn rings, could also be due to wear on cylinder walls, etc...This could be a symptom of wear OR a symptom of crappy engine (re)build). (You're rebuilding or buying a new engine)

You have to do a proper leakdown test (not compression test) to determine all that.

Considering the 30k since your rebuild, if any of those issues would be called into question, heads would roll. That is if you have taken care of the rig and not neglected it.

 

[Ryanincc]

Generally speaking low compression would be seen on just about any engine with some age. That's why ANY engine with 20k miles runs feels like a 200k mile engine that drank some Barry Bonds Koolaid.

Here's a few and most common...

- Valve lash adjustment off (no parts, invovled other than gaskets)
- Valve seals bad (would commonly encounter a puff a blue smoke when you fire her up in the morning or after sitting a few hours) (new valve seals and gaskets)
- Piston rings gap is too wide (could be improper filing of rings, or worn rings, could also be due to wear on cylinder walls, etc...This could be a symptom of wear OR a symptom of crappy engine (re)build). (You're rebuilding or buying a new engine)

You have to do a proper leakdown test (not compression test) to determine all that.

Considering the 30k since your rebuild, if any of those issues would be called into question, heads would roll. That is if you have taken care of the rig and not neglected it.

With your examples, I could see maybe at most having a few cylinders with very low compression, but ALL my cylinders are very low compression. Seemingly at the same time, and as far as I know, equally low. My first thought would be the timing but thats been ruled out.

 

[BrianSD_42]

no offense dude but if you don't get a second opinion you get what you get.

The truck runs mostly fine as stated and you can easily take it to another shop or keep driving it until the symptoms get worse.

I fear you are just going to get taken to the cleaners by the dealership and left no better off.

There are several threads of people reporting similar things happening to them. One was only a few months ago where the guy spent over $1000 troubleshooting and was next to no better off, the only thing he had from the Toyota dealership was a large bill.

Now I'm not saying the Toyota technicians are no good or anything like that but sheeesh at least get a second opinion, even if it is from a different dealership.

I don't see what you have to loose.

 

[Ryanincc]

no offense dude but if you don't get a second opinion you get what you get.

.

The dealership was my first opinion. then my local shop that I usually go to when I can't fix it, they couldn't figure it out after 12 days and tearing into the front end, The shop then referred me back to the dealership as they are the only ones that can throw parts at it and not charge me for each one. At least that's what my shop told me. Im not sure of a logical place to go for a third opinion as the other two local shops I have knowledge of are no longer welcome to my business. Especially the one that rebuilt my engine and has refused warranty work. All I could do is close my eyes and point randomly in a phone book and hope I get lucky. I may just have to do that if my instincts are off on the service advisor at the dealership and they decide to price me out on diagnostic costs.

Perhaps you know of a cause of very low compression on all cylinders that isn't the timing?

 

[02SE]

Did they tell you the compression numbers? If so, what were they?

Were the numbers equal between all of the cylinders?

If they weren't equal, how much variation was there between cylinders?

Did they test the compression on a cold engine? It needs to be checked at operating temperature.

Did they hold the throttle wide open during the tests?

Is the battery healthy?, and did they connect a charger to the battery to make sure it was putting out full cranking amperage during the tests?

Has the valve clearance ever been checked? Valve clearances that are too tight, can cause a loss of compression and power. Also to burnt valves in short order. Since the engine was rebuilt not too long ago, who knows what the re-builder did and didn't do.

A leakdown test would give you an idea of how well the rings and valves seal (as well as the headgasket). Has that been done? Personally, I wouldn't perform a compression test, without also performing a leakdown test.

5VZ-FE headgaskets can be bought in various thicknesses. Did they put thick headgaskets on the engine that didn't have the heads surfaced, or the block decked? That could lead to poor performance alone.

The list of possibilities goes on, but you get the idea.

 

[Ryanincc]

The list of possibilities goes on, but you get the idea.

Thanks. Definitely get the idea. All of those sound like expensive fixes. Possibly not worth doing since theres a chance the vehicle could get traded in fairly soon anyway. Parents in law are wanting to get us another towing vehicle/daily driver, and we could trade mine or my wife's 2003 Escape. I guess I was just hoping it could be attributed to something other than engine failure. Something fairly cheap like a pump, or even an ECU. Something less than $1500. Without some better info on the engine performance testing, my idea of troubleshooting from afar looks rather fruitless now. Thought it could be fun to figure out and maybe stay ahead of the dealership diagnosis, if that ever comes. Ill call in a bit and see if they can tell me anything.

Its just tearing me up, since I love my 4Runner, and have taken such good care of it for as long as Ive had it and it keeps puking on me. Ive spent significantly more on repairs than the original purchase price in 2007. 4Runners are supposed to take care of you if you take care of them. I thought that was the deal. I was kinda pushing for the Escape (except for the fuel pump and little things that you get with a Ford like paint falling off and interior cloth separating, its been a reliable vehicle) to be traded in, mostly due to the attachment i have to mine, but now thinking Im one of those guys with a mega-***** of a girlfriend who doesn't realize how good it can be without her. We've looked at some Traverse/Acadias that we really like. With the tow package, the V6 has a tow cap at 5200 lbs, has almost identical interior room as the Tahoe/Yukon and even a longer wheelbase. Just better gas mileage. Issue with me is, I would be stuck with the tiny Escape, and wifey gets the "new to us" one.

If you still want to play "Are We Smarter Than The Dealership", Im very open to ideas still on what the issue is with mine. Could maybe save me an ulcer :biggrin2:

 

[BrianSD_42]

If you still want to play "Are We Smarter Than The Dealership", Im very open to ideas still on what the issue is with..

Just an FYi man there are a few Toyota technicians who are commenting in this very thread. I'm not one of them but if they offer to gratiously help you for free then its probably a good idea to answer the Qs. I mean that is the whole point of these forum threads. Free advice as long as the OP is willing to post the appropriate details.

 

[02SE]

If you still want to play "Are We Smarter Than The Dealership", Im very open to ideas still on what the issue is with mine. Could maybe save me an ulcer :biggrin2:

Just an FYi man there are a few Toyota technicians who are commenting in this very thread. I'm not one of them but if they offer to gratiously help you for free then its probably a good idea to answer the Qs. I mean that is the whole point of these forum threads. Free advice as long as the OP is willing to post the appropriate details.

This.

I'm a Former ASE Master Tech, that worked in a Dealership, as well as independent shops. I became tired of the dishonesty I was expected to have, if I wanted to succeed. So I moved on to better things.

If the Dealership can't figure out your issue with your 4Runner right in front of them, then I am smarter than their parts-changers. In the years I was doing that job for a living, and since then when helping out family and friends, I have never failed to diagnose the problem.

I am sure there are plenty of others on here that can do the same.

If you can't answer the questions I asked, thus giving me at least a hint of what has been determined thus far, and how it was determined, it's a waste of my time to continue guessing.

Good luck.

 

[Ryanincc]

This.

I'm a Former ASE Master Tech, that worked in a Dealership, as well as independent shops. I became tired of the dishonesty I was expected to have, if I wanted to succeed. So I moved on to better things.

If the Dealership can't figure out your issue with your 4Runner right in front of them, then I am smarter than their parts-changers. In the years I was doing that job for a living, and since then when helping out family and friends, I have never failed to diagnose the problem.

I am sure there are plenty of others on here that can do the same.

If you can't answer the questions I asked, thus giving me at least a hint of what has been determined thus far, and how it was determined, it's a waste of my time to continue guessing.

Good luck.

My sincere apologies if you thought I was ignoring your questions. I did not mean to imply that. Only that I didn't know the answer to any of them. Im waiting on a call back now, and plan to ask the questions you did. I appreciate you taking the time to think about and post on my issue.