no crank mystery

[sleepydad]

I have 12.8 V on the big starter wire @ the starter.

I have nothing on the little wire when key is in cranking position, no test light on )

the body block 7.5 amp fuse for ignition has continuity and looks fine.
the starter relay has power on pin 5
the starter relay has continuity across 1 and 2
the starter relay does not have continuity across 3 and 5
When the relay is charged with 12V across 1 and 2, 3 and 5 have continuity.

That all seems good so far but no cranking. I have not yet tried to run a (+) to the little wire and see if the starter will crank if forced.

the bigger picture.

This is a 98 body that is swapped onto a 97 power train. the engine wire harness is from a 97. Both the 98 and the 97 ran fine before I started to mess with them. I tried both ECU's and they both have the same behavior.

so... I have not had to deal with the park neutral switch yet and I'm guessing this is my trial by fire moment

any advise here? I'm wondering if there was a difference between the 97 and 98 body wiring? I only have the pin-outs for the 98

The part numbers for the park neutral position switch are the same when I run both vins and find their respective parts.

 

[nissanh]

5 is hot and 3 is going to the starter, correct?

Do you get to engage the relay upon turning the key into crank position?

 

[sleepydad]

5 is hot and 3 is going to the starter, correct?

Do you get to engage the relay upon turning the key into crank position?

When powered on 1 and 2 yes 5,3 latch the little wire at the starter. if that makes sense.

no I don't think I can hear it close. even had my wife come out and turn the key so I'm about 99% sure the relay never closes. I can hear it close when I test it so it's working when power is sent to it. it's not a bad relay, I even swapped it out with another truck that cranks so... relay is good.

it has to be upstream at the ECU/body wire connection I think? wondering if they changed the position of a pin on the 98 body wire harness... sigh.


The FSM

S1 (A), S2 (B) STARTER
Points closed with Park/Neutral position SW at P or N position and ignition SW at ST position
I14 IGNITION SW
7-6 : Closed with ignition SW at ON or ST position
7-8 : Closed with ignition SW at ST position
P1 PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SW
9-6 : Closed with A/T shift lever in P or N position
STARTER RELAY
3-5 : Closed with Park/Neutral position SW at P or N position and ignition SW at ST position

 

[brillo_76]

How many miles on the chassis? After 200k plus if everything is checking out. Verify your key contact is good. As I had a runner for fool me before. You can see the contacts and mine was warn completely smooth. Same thing with my turn signal contacts.

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[sleepydad]

How many miles on the chassis? After 200k plus if everything is checking out. Verify your key contact is good. As I had a runner for fool me before. You can see the contacts and mine was warn completely smooth. Same thing with my turn signal contacts.

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230K

both the body truck and the power train were doing great, so it's either a bone headed sleepy dad I forgot to plug something in? totally possible but I have been thru everything 8x times now.

I'm done for the day and having an ice code wobble pop or maybe even 5x of them eventually...

it has to be something with the park neutral, just not sure how to test that theory yet.

I have the other key/cylinder so I could swap them out tomorrow.

 

[nissanh]

The key cyliner wont do anything. power is sent throught the wire switch at the back of the ignition cylinder.


I dont think the ecu is involved in starting. A power wire send a signal to park neutral switch and then to the relay.

The park neutral switch can be removed and inspected. It is simple cupper plates running on wire tracks. Those wont go bad. I did a thread on park neutral switch long ago. Check for any broken wires. Try keeping the shift lever at N and statrt.

 

[brillo_76]

What I am talking about is the electrical connector in the back of the cylinder assembly. I take a picture of it Tommorrow afternoon as I part warn out one in my parts mobile. So I should still have it. They have dimples in them and when they wear smooth they just stop one day.

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[19963.4lsr5]

Did you hot up the small starter wire from the underhood junction box yet to be sure at least that part of the circuit works?


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[Captsolo]

I had to replace 4 starters in my 2005 SR5 150,000 miles. The best replacement is the Quality built that comes with a lifetime warranty. Quality gives you another one if it ever fails.

Rebuilt the OEM one at a good shop. It failed in one year. Amazon has your starter for $100. AM is good. You get at least 4 years from one in my car.

Amazon.com: DB Electrical SND0491 New Starter For Toyota Tacoma & Tundra 4.0L 4.0 05 06 07 08 09 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 & 4Runner 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 FJ Cruiser 07 08 09: Automotive

 

[St Runner]

When I was swapping my 97 I found there were three wires on the 97 clutch switch and 4 wires on the 98. The point is there is another wire on the 98 staring circuit that the 97 does not have. Its possible that missing wire is not functioning and thus not starting. Check the FSM for both years and see if there are any differences

 

[sleepydad]

Did you hot up the small starter wire from the underhood junction box yet to be sure at least that part of the circuit works?


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I did run a jumper wire from the (+) on the battery to the small wire spade ( starter connector ) and had the starter wire connected. it cranks, so it's not the starter yet.

this part is all good

<a href="https://imgur.com/XCCewTH"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/XCCewTH.png" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

 

[sleepydad]

When I was swapping my 97 I found there were three wires on the 97 clutch switch and 4 wires on the 98. The point is there is another wire on the 98 staring circuit that the 97 does not have. Its possible that missing wire is not functioning and thus not starting. Check the FSM for both years and see if there are any differences

yours was a manual? correct? this is an auto so maybe not exactly the same deal but... at this point it's got to be the same kind of thing just an the auto version of that...

 

[sleepydad]

and verified this all checks out

<a href="https://imgur.com/vzwZ6mr"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/vzwZ6mr.png" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

 

[sleepydad]

and just so I can remember what I did and did not do already

on the starter relay

5 is always hot

when the key is turned to the start position pin 2,1 is energized that latches 5,3 and starter is than cranking. verified this is not happening.

so upstream of the entire engine room layout

 

[19963.4lsr5]

There has got to be some sort of difference between the trans wiring between the two years. Hopefully someone can post a 98 wiring diagram of the start circuit.


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[St Runner]

97 starting circuit

 

[spartacus]

Is the 40amp ami fuse good?

 

[heat]

98 diagram

 

[sleepydad]

Is the 40amp ami fuse good?

if I jumper the starter connector it cranks so I'm thinking this is 40 amp good.

how do I test the park neutral position sw?

the engine wire harness to body wire harness... the 2 connections on the engine wire harness but but connected to the ECU. thinking there must be a pin change on one of those things between 97/98

and I sold the god dam old frame for $500 to a guy who was pretty excited to get his hands on it already... I could go over and visit him and take some pictures of the old engine wire harness. sigh.

 

[sleepydad]

so the answer is?

they changed the clutch start cancel sw between those years?

on C8 @ 3 wires in 97
on C8 @ 4 wires in 98

so... how the hell does a guy fix that? and I'm confused because with an auto trans not even sure why they show the stupid clutch start cancel? do I even have that? it's an auto?

<a href="https://imgur.com/rvhMcor"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/rvhMcor.png" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>