Not sure how this happened but, ouch 2017 flop

[sn_85]

Now he gets a fancy insurance claim.

Look, let's call a spade a spade here. This was shitty driving. Full stop.

We all make mistakes. We either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain. But the reality is when our time comes we need to be made an example of when we do something stupid. That trail will get closed down if every ass hat with some stickers and marker light mod thinks they can overpower a lack of experience with vehicle mods. I've seen people do black bear in Subarus and bone stock vehicles. This shouldn't have happened. It continues to happen. And if it doesn't stop we will lose access to great trails.

Sorry if this ruffles feathers but this community has to stop treating these trails like it's all inclusive. If you can't handle your shit do not get on the trail.

The descent into the stair steps has some tippy parts. You don't need hill descent or any other wacky features of your truck. It's call the brakes and feeling how your truck responds.

Nervousness doesn't go away with experience. What happens is you know how to respond and not let nervousness dictate your actions.

Yes he made a BIG and costly mistake and it's something he'll learn from. I agree that it's not something that should have happened given by the Jeep Renegade that is seen passing by him in the picture but shit can and does always happen. However I don't think that just because someone makes a mistake that it means they're "stupid" or an "ass hat". I get it, this whole overlanding thing has gotten out of control and bringing a lot of new faces to off-roading (myself included) so mistakes are bound to happen.

Have you ever been mountain biking or skiing? It's all about knowing your limits and picking the right line. No amount of money spent on a pair of good ski's or mountain bike can make up for skill and experience (or lack thereof). Sound familiar? I live in a town where people live, eat, and breath that stuff. Indeed I do see the novice rider get in way over their head on a trail and get injured on a trail they should never have been on and conversely I see just as many experienced riders who have done this their entire life get injured on a trail they've ridden "hundreds" of times. The "I clipped an edge" or the "the dirt washed out from underneath me" scenario happens to people of all experiences and no one is immune to it. When these people come into my clinic I don't go ham on them and call them "stupid" or an "ass hat" because chances are they feel like shit already and thinking about what they will do differently next time. The same applies to off-roading.

The only difference between making a mistake in that vs off-roading is if you flip on a mountain bike the bike usually is fine and it will go on. If you flip a 4x4 then it will hit your pocket book a lot harder. Your life could be taken in either scenario really.

 

[wfo9]

but what good is all the knowledge in the world if the attitude in which its delivered is so poor the recipients don't care and learn nothing? Some very good engineers do this and while they are world experts they could provide so much more value to the org if they would get off the pedestal they sit on.

Oh boy does this hit close to home.... I've been a bit flipping engineer for 30 years now. I've encountered so many know it all ass hats who get their rocks off on hording knowledge and putting the beat down on the less experienced for mistakes. Luckily, I spent most of my career as their peer or mentor and have been able to coach many of them to realize how counter productive that attitude is in the long run. Don't get me wrong.. I'm not into sharing information and knowledge professionally for free... or living and working in a no consequences "safe" environment... but when you are on the same team... you have to take a different tact and it works 90% of the time.

Now, there have been a few hot shots who were never going to get off their pedestal with coaching...and the story plays out the same every time. They eventually get humbled in a major way by either making huge mistake or just pissing off enough people to where they no longer have a job. It's sort of the law of the universe (some call it karma) and the difference between a really experienced and smart engineer and just a smart one.

Also 100% agree we need the full story here. But even without it, there are some good general take-aways.

• Don't stab the brakes while descending. Use gearing and 4lo and lockers. Be as light and as smooth as possible on the brakes.
• If you start to tip. Let off the brakes and steer into it (if possible). Sometimes throttle out is the only option, but this is a very advanced maneuver, but can be practiced in safe environments.
• Don't load up your roof if doing technical trails. Keep all your heavy gear as low and as centered in the vehicle as possible.
• Don't wheel alone or above your level. Try to get a trail lead who knows the lines and follow those lines. Try to think about why he is doing those lines and you will pick it up. Don't be afraid to ask for help from others.
• Follow the fall line when possible, but keep tires on the high points
• When you can't see what is ahead and it is technical.. Get out and walk it. Even if you are holding up others you will hold them up less with this approach vs flopping or breaking.
• If you do flop, turn engine off ASAP. Pull plugs and turn over once back on all 4s
• Vehicle setup is a big part of the capability equation, but driver is also very much at play. Modify after some experimentation
• Everyone makes mistakes. So don't think it can't and won't ever happen to you. I've seen some really experienced folks (including myself) completely FUp (usually by not paying attention and being distracted) But it is also from being over confident and lazy and not getting out and walking the line first. You can't see out of these trucks. (or really any, but these are especially bad)

 

[LawnDart]

The problem is in this scenario is that it wasn't weather. It wasn't a sudden wash out. Etc. it was a pure lack of skill. And we've got a community that has easier access and promotion of locations and trails, but we don't have an emphasis on good and solid training for driver skill.

It's always an emphasis on gear. Not perishable skills. Complacency kills. Or rather it rolls trucks in this case. Training isn't seen as cool. And training fades with time.

I'm sorry the dudes truck is toast. I truly am. But I'm more concerned that someone will finally pull the trigger and close that trail because it's gotten too popular with people who don't have the basic skills to drive down a county road.

Someone can make a stupid mistake without being stupid. But I can't fathom the reason for this crash. But it'll be a death by a 1000 papercuts and black bear will be lost forever as a jeep trail.

 

[jrob]

The problem is in this scenario is that it wasn't weather. It wasn't a sudden wash out. Etc. it was a pure lack of skill. And we've got a community that has easier access and promotion of locations and trails, but we don't have an emphasis on good and solid training for driver skill.

It's always an emphasis on gear. Not perishable skills. Complacency kills. Or rather it rolls trucks in this case. Training isn't seen as cool. And training fades with time.

I'm sorry the dudes truck is toast. I truly am. But I'm more concerned that someone will finally pull the trigger and close that trail because it's gotten too popular with people who don't have the basic skills to drive down a county road.

Someone can make a stupid mistake without being stupid. But I can't fathom the reason for this crash. But it'll be a death by a 1000 papercuts and black bear will be lost forever as a jeep trail.

Truth of the matter is, we don't know what happened.
Appears to be poor line choice at first glance, but could have been anything.


Doesn't really matter. At the end of the day it's another recordable on Black Bear, which the Sheriff has in fact been wanting to close for quite a few years now. The traffic when I was up there was the worst I have ever seen it. And to be honest, Toyotas comprised about 75% of it.

It's probably only a matter of time, but I would gamble it will be the side by sides that put the final nail in the coffin.

 

[TRUSTYAXE]

Definitely the roof rack.....definitely

 

[LawnDart]

Truth of the matter is, we don't know what happened.
Appears to be poor line choice at first glance, but could have been anything.


Doesn't really matter. At the end of the day it's another recordable on Black Bear, which the Sheriff has in fact been wanting to close for quite a few years now. The traffic when I was up there was the worst I have ever seen it. And to be honest, Toyotas comprised about 75% of it.

It's probably only a matter of time, but I would gamble it will be the side by sides that put the final nail in the coffin.

Poor line choice on what is a super easy section. These things also pose a risk for first responders. Traffic can't move up black bear. Only down. And it risks people and equipment.

People generally are the worst, and we're losing these jewels of the natural world to our access due to stupid mistakes or behavior. Look at the fires we're dealing with in Oregon. Amazing terrain lost for our lifetimes.

All the whiz bang features in our trucks, mods, etc and people forget to admit they don't know what they don't know. If a trail is above your skill level, have a spotter. There is no trail out there where you can't stop and walk it.

It's sad that these are what have to be teachable moments especially if they also serve to close down trails.

 

[TRUSTYAXE]

I swear this is a member on here

[MENTION=137555]Sleeter[/MENTION] ?

 

[LawnDart]

[MENTION=137555]Sleeter[/MENTION] ?

Thankfully not. He has an SSO rear.

 

[AndrewTK]

[MENTION=137555]Sleeter[/MENTION] ?

I'm pretty sure he added a rear bumper to his earlier this year.

And did anyone else notice that the vehicle seen in front of this have roof top tents mounted? Certainly seems to reinforce poor line chcoice, as they have a lot more weight up top than a tire and didn't roll over.

 

[TRUSTYAXE]

Thankfully not. He has an SSO rear.

I'm pretty sure he added a rear bumper to his earlier this year.

Ahh, good call

 

[NMBruce]

I would like to know the whole story here and if the driver would post what happened and be honest about it, others could learn. I haven't been on black bear in many, many years, so I don't really recall any of it in detail. Many have said this is an easy section and many times that is what will bite you, because it's "easy", we have a tendency to relax and miss something.

We are lucky to have these trails, many here in Colorado are county roads, to drive and explore and have fun with our friends and make new friends.
So please learn and help others an be safe so we can continue to do what we love.

 

[e60ral]

That is after they winched it back up, so could be in a totally different position once pulled back. Also, could still be hooked up in the pic.

durr, i was scrolling through on my phone and didn't notice the smashed up side

 

[PK930]

What if t comes out the person has year upon years of experience off road? People have bad days. People make mistakes. Shit happens.

Everyone learn from it and move on.

 

[4Roamer]

Bruuuh! Did you even have the diff locked?!

#Sarcasm

 

[honda250xtitan]

Bruuuh! Did you even have the diff locked?!

#Sarcasm

if he had KDSS none of this would've happened.arty:

 

[Sleeter]

[MENTION=137555]Sleeter[/MENTION] ?

Nope, I'm currently on the east coast...

 

[JSparky]

Regarding anyone who's framing this driver as stupid, incompetent, etc.. I don't think we have enough information to establish what the case is here. But not only that, calling people stupid isn't exactly creating an environment where the driver of that truck is going to feel like he can tell us what happened without being overtly defensive. In doing this we're letting him down as a community and as a support network. Intelligent people can make mistakes, however they need the opportunity to take responsibility and demonstrate that they've put actions into motion to prevent this kind of mistake from occurring again.

This didn't happen at work so he can't talk about it in the office, and he (as far as we know) committed no crime so he's not defending himself in front of a judge. Social media is going to be where this guy makes amends with both himself and the community, and if he does hopefully we'll be able to hear him.

Sorry for the rant but I've been on the support-end of publicly shamed individuals and recognize how important it can be for them to come to terms, learn, and advance from mistakes. It's my hope that he follow's through with learning from what happened.

 

[KEWW Pro]

How many highway accidents occur because a bee flies into the window, passenger wakes up suddenly and yanks the wheel, wife gets pissed off, new pothole is found where it never was on a daily drive, meteorite crashes through the window and bumps the Ipod switching the folder to a secret file with Enya on it causing irrational emotional distress for everyone within earshot triggering a deep seeded desire to roll off a cliff and guess what, there is a cliff on the left, so wham, off you go...f'n Enya

Four pages of speculation in, no show from the truth teller for now. For all we know is they could be in the hospital right now. I agree, the rig looks familiar and the additional features added look sweet. Any time I see a vehicle all balled up on the side of the road I use it as a reminder.

In this case, regardless of the experience level of the driver, I will continue to improve the tool between my ears, and this is my reminder.

 

[wfo9]

I saw a little more info on facebook about this. It is definitely a total loss. The motor seized up.

Like I said before in an earlier post. If this ever happens you have to turn it off ASAP. Then when you get it up on all 4s. Pull the plugs and crank to get oil out of the cylinders. I'm always shocked by how many people seize the motor on a flop when that is so easy to avoid. It is very inconvenient.. but so is a flop... You take it from repairable to a total loss with one crank of the ignition. I know it is hard to think when rolling... but try to do a drill so you will remember what to do if it does happen.

If it happens really fast and you end back up on all 4s... you may be able to keep it running. Ask me how I know. LOL

 

[LawnDart]

I saw a little more info on facebook about this. It is definitely a total loss. The motor seized up.

Like I said before in an earlier post. If this ever happens you have to turn it off ASAP. Then when you get it up on all 4s. Pull the plugs and crank to get oil out of the cylinders. I'm always shocked by how many people seize the motor on a flop when that is so easy to avoid. It is very inconvenient.. but so is a flop... You take it from repairable to a total loss with one crank of the ignition.

You assume people are thinking correctly when that moment of the flop passes.

You and I don't agree on a lot of things, but we've also done enough off-roading to know that off-roading is actually a thinking mans game. The vehicle wants to stay on the ground, shiny side up, until we as drivers do a stupid input on a bad line.

I don't think you ever STOP being nervous. Being nervous is a good thing because it means you care. You're taking at the minimum, a 40K vehicle, and putting it into a situation where it can very easily be totaled. If that doesn't tickle your butthole and make you nervous, you're doomed to screwing up.

Maybe it's because Black Bear is so well documented that people think it's not a challenge. It's really NOT a challenge as long as your head is screwed on.

I think the biggest take away is that complacency and institutional inertia kill. The minute you think something is easy and ignore the ramifications, the easiest stuff will get you. It's always human error.