Not sure how this happened but, ouch 2017 flop

[Jetboy]

I think its very rare that you need two spares. I would take a tube, sew kit, and patch kit over a second spare for weight reasons. I wouldn't put a spare on the roof either way. Unless I was replacing the spare with something even heavier like fuel, I wouldn't move it to a bumper either. The spare tire location is exactly where it should be unless you have a very good reason to move it.

 

[Bodie the Dog]

Aa lava

I think its very rare that you need two spares. I would take a tube, sew kit, and patch kit over a second spare for weight reasons. I wouldn't put a spare on the roof either way. Unless I was replacing the spare with something even heavier like fuel, I wouldn't move it to a bumper either. The spare tire location is exactly where it should be unless you have a very good reason to move it.

Aa lava is brutal. It is very possible to get multiple flats in old flows, and a patch kit ain't gonna do much for a slashed sidewall. When you're rolling solo, off the beaten path, the possibility of multiple flats can cause serious anxiety. But if there are a lot of other travelers out there, yes, you can take more chances, no need for a second spare. And I doubt there's much Aa east of the Rockies. (See the picture. I took a "trail" that looked like this in the Coso's once and did not enjoy it.)

 

[ifoundastick]

Maybe in the 70's you could get like this in the lower 48 but not many places that are that remote. Even in Death Valley you'll see someone.

If you've ever been so far back in the hills that you haven't seen anyone in 5 days, and you get a flat, but don't have tire plugs..., you'd understand why the need for two spares.

 

[weiasian]

Does having a tire mount on top really cost that? Because I am planning doing the same, so I can have two spares

 

[3wbdriver]

Does having a tire mount on top really cost that? Because I am planning doing the same, so I can have two spares

No. You just need to be aware of the extra weight up there when choosing your off road lines. Everybody who has a roof top tent or carries extra gear on a roof rack has the same concern.

 

[trdsport]

Oh boy does this hit close to home.... I've been a bit flipping engineer for 30 years now. I've encountered so many know it all ass hats who get their rocks off on hording knowledge and putting the beat down on the less experienced for mistakes. Luckily, I spent most of my career as their peer or mentor and have been able to coach many of them to realize how counter productive that attitude is in the long run. Don't get me wrong.. I'm not into sharing information and knowledge professionally for free... or living and working in a no consequences "safe" environment... but when you are on the same team... you have to take a different tact and it works 90% of the time.

Now, there have been a few hot shots who were never going to get off their pedestal with coaching...and the story plays out the same every time. They eventually get humbled in a major way by either making huge mistake or just pissing off enough people to where they no longer have a job. It's sort of the law of the universe (some call it karma) and the difference between a really experienced and smart engineer and just a smart one.

Also 100% agree we need the full story here. But even without it, there are some good general take-aways.

• Don't stab the brakes while descending. Use gearing and 4lo and lockers. Be as light and as smooth as possible on the brakes.
• If you start to tip. Let off the brakes and steer into it (if possible). Sometimes throttle out is the only option, but this is a very advanced maneuver, but can be practiced in safe environments.
• Don't load up your roof if doing technical trails. Keep all your heavy gear as low and as centered in the vehicle as possible.
• Don't wheel alone or above your level. Try to get a trail lead who knows the lines and follow those lines. Try to think about why he is doing those lines and you will pick it up. Don't be afraid to ask for help from others.
• Follow the fall line when possible, but keep tires on the high points
• When you can't see what is ahead and it is technical.. Get out and walk it. Even if you are holding up others you will hold them up less with this approach vs flopping or breaking.
• If you do flop, turn engine off ASAP. Pull plugs and turn over once back on all 4s
• Vehicle setup is a big part of the capability equation, but driver is also very much at play. Modify after some experimentation
• Everyone makes mistakes. So don't think it can't and won't ever happen to you. I've seen some really experienced folks (including myself) completely FUp (usually by not paying attention and being distracted) But it is also from being over confident and lazy and not getting out and walking the line first. You can't see out of these trucks. (or really any, but these are especially bad)

---Thanks Great tips !!! bro ---

 

[Overlanding99]

 

[final]

Looks like it was salvaged and will be up for auction soon.

https://erepairables.com/salvage-cars-auction/suvs/toyota/4runner/2017-toyota-4runner-22883875

 

[mikegli]

Looks like it was salvaged and will be up for auction soon.

https://erepairables.com/salvage-cars-auction/suvs/toyota/4runner/2017-toyota-4runner-22883875

What a shame.

 

[MAST4R]

I agree with this.....I almost hit the same spot yesterday, and got a little tippy myself with a ledge on the far left. Ended up backing up, and went to the right just a tad, and made it with no problem.

My wife freaked out at this spot much worse than any other part of the trail, as "the Steps" and the switchbacks were no problem!

At least the snorkel was OK. LOL.

Don't want to bash on the guy because bad stuff can happen to anyone off-road.. Curious to hear what the story was. Seems like it is probably someone here, the truck looks very familiar.

Pictures never show the angles, but I've ran that trail and nothing tricky when dry, but there were probably some bad lines possible. This looks like the end of the steps... which is the only spot remotely off camber.

Ha! I just posted on the other thread that the spot in the first post gave me a scare whereas the switchback pictured here was fun. So I totally agree.

The moment I looked at the tippy spot, I hated it. I actually gave it a little gas once the front was through and got out of it without lifting a wheel. But I was on a different line. The next rough spot before the switchback was much easier: just took the straight down line it offers and used the skid plates a bit (and the spare tire which is in my stock location worked as a skid) instead of risking anything.

But said earlier spot offers no such line and is way worse than the pic on top of the thread makes it seem.

 

[spartacus]

Disconnecting front sway bar also helps.

 

[MAST4R]

Which begs the question:

WHAT IS THE BEST 4RUNNER LINE THROUGH THE TIPPY SPOT?

1/ I wanted to go middle and then sideways to the trail towards the edge so as to be straight to the drop but the tight space made that impossible (in an old Forester or a 2 dr Jeep it may work).

2/ Then I wanted to go middle-right, straight along the axis of the trail and I think that may have been best if counter-intuitive (involving an unpleasant tilt towards the edge).

But when I got to the middle, I chose a modified version of 1/ and was fine. Not strictly along the edge as the person here, but broadly similar: Stock 4Runner on Black Bear Pass - YouTube

What do those who HAVE DRIVEN the spot think is the best line? Assuming stock or better front articulation.

 

[rightyouareken]

FWIW, I'm not sure if this is the exact same spot or not, but here's an FJ flopping in a similar way.

FJ rolls on Black Bear - YouTube

 

[MAST4R]

FWIW, I'm not sure if this is the exact same spot or not, but here's an FJ flopping in a similar way.

FJ rolls on Black Bear - YouTube

EDITED:

Well, my videos are from the back and I cannot exactly tell which spot is which vs those shot by others. It now seems to me that the FJ rolled at the second rough spot and the 4R that is the subject of this thread rolled on the first. On the second one I just went over the biggest part of the rock dropping straight and making some use of front skid and spare tire in the back also as a skid. Nowhere close to having issues because of being in the direction of the drop.

I think the 4R in post 1 rolled on the previous spot which is the one I hated. Now that I re-watched my video and several others, I feel a lot better about how I went through it but I still think there must be a better line than mine.

Also, the spot looks a lot more eroded now than back in 2012:
Subaru Forester Off Road - Black Bear Pass - YouTube look at 9:23.

 

[Jetboy]

In that spot there's an off-camber rocky face with a fairly large ledge to drop off. It's sort of a perfect 4Runner trap. The 4Runner has everything wrong in this situation - short wheel base, high COG, low front suspension travel - especially low droop and when lifted, and higher rear suspension travel. All of those attributes come together on this obstacle to make it perfect for flopping a 4Runner or any IFS short wheel base.

What happens is that the 4runner on an off camber steep downhill is when the front left tire drops off the ledge, the vehicle is basically teetering on the right front and left rear tires diagonally. And probably low or zero weight being balanced on the left front due to the lack of down travel. Because of the overall off-camber tilt downward and to the left, the body then rotated forward and down on the pivot axis of the left rear and right front until the left front tire eventually stabilizes the vehicle. In this case the momentum of that event of the body rotating down and left is so great that it overruns the point where the COG is still above the tires and the vehicle continues its roll all the way onto the side.

This is the type of situation where a solid front axle would function much better due to the longer travel and better weight distribution. A similarly setup wrangler could probably take that same line without issue. Even my short wheel base FJ40 could probably drive right off that ledge and you'd barely notice it because the suspension can travel all the way down and still be providing significant spring force back up on that corner. It has so much suspension travel that places you'd get really tippy in the 4Runner you'll barely even notice in the FJ40 because the body doesn't really lean over at all or teeter between two corners much. It's just planted. I'd guess a Wrangler would handle that spot similarly. Even a LC200 with it's much longer suspension travel probably handle it okay. The IFS is the worst candidate for that ledge scenario because it provides very little stability near the end of the travel range. In fact - you could probably take a 4Runner down backwards and not have the same result - even on the same line.

In reality, the thing only thing you have to avoid is the scenario where you drop that front left tire off the deep part of the ledge. So it's probably more of a question of what line you can't take than what line you can. What you'll see there is that about 8 feet from the far left side of the trail is where the ledge becomes less of a step ramp and more of a 2 foot vertical drop. Do not drive down the ledge at that point. Follow the far left or far right and it's okay. Or you could probably go high and then turn down very sharply and drop off the ledge square on with both front tires at once. There's some risk of a direct end over, but it's low unless you have 500lbs of shit tied to your roof.

With an empty 4Runner I damn near did an end-over taking one of the technical side obstacles on Hell's Revenge trail in Moab. I have a video somewhere. Both rear tires came off the ground about 8-10" before settling back down. It was very slow and I actually didn't know that I had lifted the rear tires until after I had gotten off the ledge. - Point being that there are ledges that can cause you to go directly over forward. But they're pretty rare and I'm not sure this one is steep enough to do that. I don't think it is, but I haven't been there in about 4 years. Moab angles are extreme to say the least. You can get into trouble there because the rocks are so grippy you get accustomed to driving at extreme angles and don't realize how far you're pushing it after a while.


My guess - none of the flops have KDSS. KDSS would help a lot to stabilize the body motion here. It's hard to really explain fully - but I was on a trail in moab with a non-kdss very comparable 4Runner and the difference in the tippy and flexy situations is night and day. KDSS really does work to manage the body mass stability here. And stock suspension would probably be better than a lift. Especially up front. Lack of down travel is a killer on that type of obstacle.

 

[delloro]

Not to make light of peoples troubles, but does this qualify as "tippy"? There was a bit of a pucker factor as I slowly, gently, turned into this parking space.

Where is that?

 

[MAST4R]

In that spot there's an off-camber rocky face with a fairly large ledge to drop off. It's sort of a perfect 4Runner trap. The 4Runner has everything wrong in this situation - short wheel base, high COG, low front suspension travel - especially low droop and when lifted, and higher rear suspension travel. All of those attributes come together on this obstacle to make it perfect for flopping a 4Runner or any IFS short wheel base.

What happens is that the 4runner on an off camber steep downhill is when the front left tire drops off the ledge, the vehicle is basically teetering on the right front and left rear tires diagonally. And probably low or zero weight being balanced on the left front due to the lack of down travel. Because of the overall off-camber tilt downward and to the left, the body then rotated forward and down on the pivot axis of the left rear and right front until the left front tire eventually stabilizes the vehicle. In this case the momentum of that event of the body rotating down and left is so great that it overruns the point where the COG is still above the tires and the vehicle continues its roll all the way onto the side.

This is the type of situation where a solid front axle would function much better due to the longer travel and better weight distribution. A similarly setup wrangler could probably take that same line without issue. Even my short wheel base FJ40 could probably drive right off that ledge and you'd barely notice it because the suspension can travel all the way down and still be providing significant spring force back up on that corner. It has so much suspension travel that places you'd get really tippy in the 4Runner you'll barely even notice in the FJ40 because the body doesn't really lean over at all or teeter between two corners much. It's just planted. I'd guess a Wrangler would handle that spot similarly. Even a LC200 with it's much longer suspension travel probably handle it okay. The IFS is the worst candidate for that ledge scenario because it provides very little stability near the end of the travel range. In fact - you could probably take a 4Runner down backwards and not have the same result - even on the same line.

In reality, the thing only thing you have to avoid is the scenario where you drop that front left tire off the deep part of the ledge. So it's probably more of a question of what line you can't take than what line you can. What you'll see there is that about 8 feet from the far left side of the trail is where the ledge becomes less of a step ramp and more of a 2 foot vertical drop. Do not drive down the ledge at that point. Follow the far left or far right and it's okay. Or you could probably go high and then turn down very sharply and drop off the ledge square on with both front tires at once. There's some risk of a direct end over, but it's low unless you have 500lbs of shit tied to your roof.

With an empty 4Runner I damn near did an end-over taking one of the technical side obstacles on Hell's Revenge trail in Moab. I have a video somewhere. Both rear tires came off the ground about 8-10" before settling back down. It was very slow and I actually didn't know that I had lifted the rear tires until after I had gotten off the ledge. - Point being that there are ledges that can cause you to go directly over forward. But they're pretty rare and I'm not sure this one is steep enough to do that. I don't think it is, but I haven't been there in about 4 years. Moab angles are extreme to say the least. You can get into trouble there because the rocks are so grippy you get accustomed to driving at extreme angles and don't realize how far you're pushing it after a while.


My guess - none of the flops have KDSS. KDSS would help a lot to stabilize the body motion here. It's hard to really explain fully - but I was on a trail in moab with a non-kdss very comparable 4Runner and the difference in the tippy and flexy situations is night and day. KDSS really does work to manage the body mass stability here. And stock suspension would probably be better than a lift. Especially up front. Lack of down travel is a killer on that type of obstacle.

Thanks for the analysis. I agree that this is a perfect storm for relatively short base IFS. I am not sure which spot you are referring to, however. As of last week, the one that made me think is the one I think the 4Runner on the OP flopped. But the FJ linked above seems to have flopped on the second rough spot, which is very straightforward actually: you just drive straight down the biggest hump in the rock, meaning straight down in direction of the drop which is a bit sideways to the trail. There is no problem unless you get fancy. There is enough room to go down straight without any tilt and then straighten the vehicle which is not true of the first spot.

However, the first spot, which does not have a 2 ft drop off, is the tricky one. It does not look bad to the uninitiated eye--my wife did not think much of it--but I hated it from first sight. It is all undulating and generally tilted towards the edge. Looking from the front of it, I actually taught the far right should do it just fine even with a constantly tilted vehicle. But from the driver spot I hated that idea so I changed my line completely.

This is one way through it but not what I did; it is a couple years old video:
Stock 4Runner on Black Bear Pass - YouTube

I did not lift any wheels. I don't have KDSS but I have stock front travel thanks to small lift from 6112 and I have +1 in the rear. Have not had any stability issues with this setup, including on 550.

But my line was a twisty one, hankering back to my Subaru days except with a high alert for roll. I went along the axis of the trail then along the axis of the drop as much as I could then veered pax side and gave it just a little gas as the front was where it needed to be. I have a video from the back and the rear pax wheel comes close to lifting but never does (so a stock one would have lifted).

4Runners with compromised front wheel travel should avoid the Black Bear altogether. Also, note that the FJ has the wheels ever so slightly turned the wrong way, opposite the drop. That probably explains the quick debacle from an apparently stable state.

I also have some 300lb of armor underneath and nothing on the top.

But yeah first time I felt limited in the 4R on a spot that a Wrangler would not notice. I spotted a Rubi on 37s down the rocky switchback as he was inexperienced, but he did not have any idea that this spot gave me food for thought. He just waited for me right before the switchback.

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Thanks for the analysis. I agree that this is a perfect storm for relatively short base IFS. I am not sure which spot you are referring to, however. As of last week, the one that made me think is the one I think the 4Runner on the OP flopped. But the FJ linked above seems to have flopped on the second rough spot, which is very straightforward actually: you just drive straight down the biggest hump in the rock, meaning straight down in direction of the drop which is a bit sideways to the trail. There is no problem unless you get fancy. There is enough room to go down straight without any tilt and then straighten the vehicle which is not true of the first spot.

However, the first spot, which does not have a 2 ft drop off, is the tricky one. It does not look bad to the uninitiated eye--my wife did not think much of it--but I hated it from first sight. It is all undulating and generally tilted towards the edge. Looking from the front of it, I actually taught the far right should do it just fine even with a constantly tilted vehicle. But from the driver spot I hated that idea so I changed my line completely.

This is one way through it but not what I did; it is a couple years old video:
Stock 4Runner on Black Bear Pass - YouTube

I did not lift any wheels. I don't have KDSS but I have stock front travel thanks to small lift from 6112 and I have +1 in the rear. Have not had any stability issues with this setup, including on 550.

But my line was a twisty one, hankering back to my Subaru days except with a high alert for roll. I went along the axis of the trail then along the axis of the drop as much as I could then veered pax side and gave it just a little gas as the front was where it needed to be. I have a video from the back and the rear pax wheel comes close to lifting but never does (so a stock one would have lifted).

4Runners with compromised front wheel travel should avoid the Black Bear altogether. Also, note that the FJ has the wheels ever so slightly turned the wrong way, opposite the drop. That probably explains the quick debacle from an apparently stable state.

I also have some 300lb of armor underneath and nothing on the top.

But yeah first time I felt limited in the 4R on a spot that a Wrangler would not notice. I spotted a Rubi on 37s down the rocky switchback as he was inexperienced, but he did not have any idea that this spot gave me food for thought. He just waited for me right before the switchback.

Its for this reason I was considering dropping my lift from 2.25ish to 1-1.5ish when I change out my shocks. That + incoming 34s should be nicer on the technical trails!

 

[MAST4R]

Its for this reason I was considering dropping my lift from 2.25ish to 1-1.5ish when I change out my shocks. That + incoming 34s should be nicer on the technical trails!

Do it! I think you will like the results very much.

For me, the moment of truth was last year in Montana. I went up and down a trail and on the way up I drove over a bigger rock just fine but on the way down I stupidly went around it. While nothing bad happened, I felt like I would slide on my seat sideways. So 1/ I ditched the lift springs with stock shocks upon return (that was a temporary setup anyway) and 2/ I pledged to not try Subaru maneuvers in the 4R again. The one on BB was twisty but aimed at keeping the vehicle at minimum tilt which is the one thing I never worried about in the Outback.

With those lift springs and stock shocks I had 1.25" of lift and equivalent loss of down travel. I drove Kamikaze, Boxcar, Elephant Hill, and Bobby's Hole with those but these trails have no off-camber spots to worry about. You just go straight up and straight down things. That's all. With my current setup, I have 1.25" of lift and only lost 0.25" of travel vs stock when I ditched the 600 springs for 650s. In addition, I have 1" extra in the rear.

 

[Jetboy]

I really depends a lot on terrain. In some areas you just need all the clearance you can possibly get - where a tip over isn't the issue, but big rocks are. And in others, it really helps to keep a more balanced amount of suspension travel. In a perfect world something like a small air spring set could make a nice all-around functioning system. The problem with air springs is that they're firmer when high and softer when low - opposite of what you want. When you max them out you loose all of your down travel AND most of your up travel. For some spots where you just need more belly clearance to get over a big rock - would work great, but for most situations not so well. So... you really need a negative air chamber and there's nothing on the market that has that setup that I'm aware of. Or use the air spring with a coil spring that's softer so the air's primary function is to preload the spring, not act as the primary spring force. Even what they call "air cups" would work really well - (other than that they're shit quality and they wouldn't last long in a dirty environment).

I ran GX460 rear air springs for a while. They would actually work pretty well because they're pretty soft and have lots of travel. But you still need an on-the-fly front adjustment and none of the bag-over manufacturers would make me a set that would fit over a Fox coilover. The plan was to run a very small bag-over that only had 1.5" of extention range and then combine it with a coil spring. So at zero pressure it's stock ride height. Then a loss of pressure isn't a deal breaker. And at full height you still have the full spring travel range. Since the front only needs 4" of spring to do the entire suspension travel range, there's plenty of space for it to work. But no one has an airbag that would work. And I didn't want to go down in size to a 2" shock body. So I kinda gave up on the idea.