Not sure how this happened but, ouch 2017 flop

[MAST4R]

I really depends a lot on terrain. In some areas you just need all the clearance you can possibly get - where a tip over isn't the issue, but big rocks are. And in others, it really helps to keep a more balanced amount of suspension travel. In a perfect world something like a small air spring set could make a nice all-around functioning system. The problem with air springs is that they're firmer when high and softer when low - opposite of what you want. When you max them out you loose all of your down travel AND most of your up travel. For some spots where you just need more belly clearance to get over a big rock - would work great, but for most situations not so well. So... you really need a negative air chamber and there's nothing on the market that has that setup that I'm aware of. Or use the air spring with a coil spring that's softer so the air's primary function is to preload the spring, not act as the primary spring force. Even what they call "air cups" would work really well - (other than that they're shit quality and they wouldn't last long in a dirty environment).

I ran GX460 rear air springs for a while. They would actually work pretty well because they're pretty soft and have lots of travel. But you still need an on-the-fly front adjustment and none of the bag-over manufacturers would make me a set that would fit over a Fox coilover. The plan was to run a very small bag-over that only had 1.5" of extention range and then combine it with a coil spring. So at zero pressure it's stock ride height. Then a loss of pressure isn't a deal breaker. And at full height you still have the full spring travel range. Since the front only needs 4" of spring to do the entire suspension travel range, there's plenty of space for it to work. But no one has an airbag that would work. And I didn't want to go down in size to a 2" shock body. So I kinda gave up on the idea.

Overall, I am very happy with the setup in my signature, going to 650lb springs was the ticket for me in the desert.

Are you still running the 2.5 Fox front with no reservoir 2.0s rear?

 

[Jetboy]

Overall, I am very happy with the setup in my signature, going to 650lb springs was the ticket for me in the desert.

Are you still running the 2.5 Fox front with no reservoir 2.0s rear?

Yes. That's still my current setup. I did remove the Dobinsons rear coils and went back to OEM coils and 1.5" poly spacers. I prefer the low spring rate in normal daily driving. I added firestone airbags. They seem to work better for me than the airlift ones. The airlift ones were fatter so even deflated they bound up the coils a lot and the ride was too firm when empty. The firestone ones are narrower and when empty they actually ride very similar to stock. I'd still rather soften the rear shocks a bit from what Fox has in the 2.0.

The front Fox 2.5's are right on the money IMO. Great ride. Right dampening for me. Pretty plush. Only thing I don't like is replacing the spherical bearings all the time. Wish they'd ditch those for some rubber bushings. It would cost a little more - but make a lot less maintenance.

 

[mteolus]

In that spot there's an off-camber rocky face with a fairly large ledge to drop off. It's sort of a perfect 4Runner trap. The 4Runner has everything wrong in this situation - short wheel base, high COG, low front suspension travel - especially low droop and when lifted, and higher rear suspension travel. All of those attributes come together on this obstacle to make it perfect for flopping a 4Runner or any IFS short wheel base.

What happens is that the 4runner on an off camber steep downhill is when the front left tire drops off the ledge, the vehicle is basically teetering on the right front and left rear tires diagonally. And probably low or zero weight being balanced on the left front due to the lack of down travel. Because of the overall off-camber tilt downward and to the left, the body then rotated forward and down on the pivot axis of the left rear and right front until the left front tire eventually stabilizes the vehicle. In this case the momentum of that event of the body rotating down and left is so great that it overruns the point where the COG is still above the tires and the vehicle continues its roll all the way onto the side.

This is the type of situation where a solid front axle would function much better due to the longer travel and better weight distribution. A similarly setup wrangler could probably take that same line without issue. Even my short wheel base FJ40 could probably drive right off that ledge and you'd barely notice it because the suspension can travel all the way down and still be providing significant spring force back up on that corner. It has so much suspension travel that places you'd get really tippy in the 4Runner you'll barely even notice in the FJ40 because the body doesn't really lean over at all or teeter between two corners much. It's just planted. I'd guess a Wrangler would handle that spot similarly. Even a LC200 with it's much longer suspension travel probably handle it okay. The IFS is the worst candidate for that ledge scenario because it provides very little stability near the end of the travel range. In fact - you could probably take a 4Runner down backwards and not have the same result - even on the same line.

In reality, the thing only thing you have to avoid is the scenario where you drop that front left tire off the deep part of the ledge. So it's probably more of a question of what line you can't take than what line you can. What you'll see there is that about 8 feet from the far left side of the trail is where the ledge becomes less of a step ramp and more of a 2 foot vertical drop. Do not drive down the ledge at that point. Follow the far left or far right and it's okay. Or you could probably go high and then turn down very sharply and drop off the ledge square on with both front tires at once. There's some risk of a direct end over, but it's low unless you have 500lbs of shit tied to your roof.

With an empty 4Runner I damn near did an end-over taking one of the technical side obstacles on Hell's Revenge trail in Moab. I have a video somewhere. Both rear tires came off the ground about 8-10" before settling back down. It was very slow and I actually didn't know that I had lifted the rear tires until after I had gotten off the ledge. - Point being that there are ledges that can cause you to go directly over forward. But they're pretty rare and I'm not sure this one is steep enough to do that. I don't think it is, but I haven't been there in about 4 years. Moab angles are extreme to say the least. You can get into trouble there because the rocks are so grippy you get accustomed to driving at extreme angles and don't realize how far you're pushing it after a while.


My guess - none of the flops have KDSS. KDSS would help a lot to stabilize the body motion here. It's hard to really explain fully - but I was on a trail in moab with a non-kdss very comparable 4Runner and the difference in the tippy and flexy situations is night and day. KDSS really does work to manage the body mass stability here. And stock suspension would probably be better than a lift. Especially up front. Lack of down travel is a killer on that type of obstacle.

I think you need to ride the right side high then take a sharp left and try and go straight down. And yea, that's why I got KDSS, better articulation.

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Yes. That's still my current setup. I did remove the Dobinsons rear coils and went back to OEM coils and 1.5" poly spacers. I prefer the low spring rate in normal daily driving. I added firestone airbags. They seem to work better for me than the airlift ones. The airlift ones were fatter so even deflated they bound up the coils a lot and the ride was too firm when empty. The firestone ones are narrower and when empty they actually ride very similar to stock. I'd still rather soften the rear shocks a bit from what Fox has in the 2.0.

The front Fox 2.5's are right on the money IMO. Great ride. Right dampening for me. Pretty plush. Only thing I don't like is replacing the spherical bearings all the time. Wish they'd ditch those for some rubber bushings. It would cost a little more - but make a lot less maintenance.

If you don't sell the 4runner, have you considered the Dobinsons IMS shocks that use oem rubber bushings?

 

[02SE]

I didn't see this thread at the time it was originally posted, likely because I still had my 3rd gen at the time, and didn't browse the 5th gen section often.

Anyway, I drove my stock other than slightly oversized LT 265/75R16 tires 3rd gen over Black Bear Pass a few years back, and I don't recall that area being noteworthy. I was more concerned about the switchbacks below that area.

I'm going to say the driver chose a poor line, likely due to inexperience, and that was the result.

Glad everyone apparently was unhurt.

 

[MAST4R]

Y I'd still rather soften the rear shocks a bit from what Fox has in the 2.0.

.

What about the Eibach rear shocks? They claim an extra hole that simulates progressive feel at low speeds. Otherwise they should be comparable to 5100s in function.

 

[Gamma Ray]

Well, they say that getting past the first scratch or ding makes the next one easier. I'd say the owner of that 4Runner in the first post will never worry about a scratch or ding ever again!

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Do it! I think you will like the results very much.

For me, the moment of truth was last year in Montana. I went up and down a trail and on the way up I drove over a bigger rock just fine but on the way down I stupidly went around it. While nothing bad happened, I felt like I would slide on my seat sideways. So 1/ I ditched the lift springs with stock shocks upon return (that was a temporary setup anyway) and 2/ I pledged to not try Subaru maneuvers in the 4R again. The one on BB was twisty but aimed at keeping the vehicle at minimum tilt which is the one thing I never worried about in the Outback.

With those lift springs and stock shocks I had 1.25" of lift and equivalent loss of down travel. I drove Kamikaze, Boxcar, Elephant Hill, and Bobby's Hole with those but these trails have no off-camber spots to worry about. You just go straight up and straight down things. That's all. With my current setup, I have 1.25" of lift and only lost 0.25" of travel vs stock when I ditched the 600 springs for 650s. In addition, I have 1" extra in the rear.

I loved Elephant Hill and still need to check out the rest! Once all this madness blows over, we got to link up! (also I'm switching tires...again...I want lighter and larger so no more Falkens haha)

 

[Jetboy]

What about the Eibach rear shocks? They claim an extra hole that simulates progressive feel at low speeds. Otherwise they should be comparable to 5100s in function.

I don't really know much about the eibach set. The fox are great when I'm loaded up with a few hundred lbs in the back or towing my trailer. Not so great when it's empty. There's probably not a perfect solution for all situations. I think the adjustable shocks like the OME BP51's would be ideal, but for now I'm okay with the Fox set. If I were buying again I might opt for something totally different.

I really wish there were some way to test drive half a dozen different options and see what was the best.

 

[Jetboy]

If you don't sell the 4runner, have you considered the Dobinsons IMS shocks that use oem rubber bushings?

I'm considering just machining out the eyes on my Fox setup and using a rubber bushing from an OEM set. I have a CNC mill, so I just need to take some measurements and order the OEM replacement set and then mill out the lower eye hole to match. What I'm not sure about is whether there is enough material in the eye to make that work.

It's only the lower set that goes out on me. The upper one lasts a long time. they are much more protected from elements than the lower one I suppose.

 

[shrub1]

I'm considering just machining out the eyes on my Fox setup and using a rubber bushing from an OEM set. I have a CNC mill, so I just need to take some measurements and order the OEM replacement set and then mill out the lower eye hole to match. What I'm not sure about is whether there is enough material in the eye to make that work.

It's only the lower set that goes out on me. The upper one lasts a long time. they are much more protected from elements than the lower one I suppose.

Honest question..what would you buy if you were to sell the 4Runner?

 

[Jetboy]

Honest question..what would you buy if you were to sell the 4Runner?

I'm not totally sure. My needs have changed a lot over the last year and really need a vehicle that requires a lot less frequent maintenance. And I need one that that can tow more. But I really don't want a full size truck. So... I'm kinda stuck with not a lot of alternatives. But I still need the utility of being able to go off road - at least as well as a stock 4R if not more so. Probably won't be going to the normal offroad trips I like to do for at least a year or two. And moab 4-5 times a year is looking unlikely at this point.

Top candidate is a GX460. It checks most the boxes I need - able to comfortably tow 5000lbs. All my offroad stuff fits on it. So I can just keep all my skids, sliders, suspension, wheels and tires, etc. And it has 6th gear, so I can run lower diff gears for even better towing and off-road use and still have good highway cruising rpms.

Downside to the GX is the plastics are really low and kinda ugly. It's heavy - way too heavy for what it is. And no rear locker. GX is very easy to add crawl control since there's just the module to plug in and the rest is in the screen menu. I have a spare set of 4.56 diffs with rear e-locker 8.2 diff already, but I'd need a correct housing for it to swap over.

So the GX is the top candidate as of now. If I could find a reasonably priced LC200 I'd go there. But there just aren't many or any for sale in my area. And the LX is just so damn ugly I'm not sure I can live with it. And the AHC makes any sort of mods really tough. OTOH the AHC is a fantastic system if you leave it alone and does the height adjustment right. So it's compelling in some ways.

So that's kinda where I'm at. I've reached the limit to me of what makes sense for the 4Runner platform - really the drive train is the limiting issue. And it makes more sense to swap to a GX than to spend $6-7k on a supercharger.

The LC300 and new Tundra were both supposed to be announced this month or next. Now it's all unknown. Was kinda waiting for those to drop so I'd know if I'd rather wait for one of them, but now it's unknown when they'll be released as far as information and also when or if the LC300 will even come to the USA market. Recent comments from Toyota indicate that the LC300 will not be a north america model and we'll get something like a Landcruiser badge as a sub-model on the 4Runner or ?? but not the real land cruiser.

It's a bummer because the 4Runner is kinda just what I like. I like the styling. The interior is great and comfortable for me. The size is just right. The on/off road comfort is great. If it had a v8 option or even just a 6AT I'd probably be perfectly happy keeping it for another 5 or 6 years. But I really just need better towing ability and it's not very good at that. And it's my changing needs more than the 4Runner. It's just not quite the right fit right now.

 

[peekaboo]

I'm not totally sure. My needs have changed a lot over the last year and really need a vehicle that requires a lot less frequent maintenance. And I need one that that can tow more. But I really don't want a full size truck. So... I'm kinda stuck with not a lot of alternatives. But I still need the utility of being able to go off road - at least as well as a stock 4R if not more so. Probably won't be going to the normal offroad trips I like to do for at least a year or two. And moab 4-5 times a year is looking unlikely at this point.

Top candidate is a GX460. It checks most the boxes I need - able to comfortably tow 5000lbs. All my offroad stuff fits on it. So I can just keep all my skids, sliders, suspension, wheels and tires, etc. And it has 6th gear, so I can run lower diff gears for even better towing and off-road use and still have good highway cruising rpms.

Downside to the GX is the plastics are really low and kinda ugly. It's heavy - way too heavy for what it is. And no rear locker. GX is very easy to add crawl control since there's just the module to plug in and the rest is in the screen menu. I have a spare set of 4.56 diffs with rear e-locker 8.2 diff already, but I'd need a correct housing for it to swap over.

So the GX is the top candidate as of now. If I could find a reasonably priced LC200 I'd go there. But there just aren't many or any for sale in my area. And the LX is just so damn ugly I'm not sure I can live with it. And the AHC makes any sort of mods really tough. OTOH the AHC is a fantastic system if you leave it alone and does the height adjustment right. So it's compelling in some ways.

So that's kinda where I'm at. I've reached the limit to me of what makes sense for the 4Runner platform - really the drive train is the limiting issue. And it makes more sense to swap to a GX than to spend $6-7k on a supercharger.

The LC300 and new Tundra were both supposed to be announced this month or next. Now it's all unknown. Was kinda waiting for those to drop so I'd know if I'd rather wait for one of them, but now it's unknown when they'll be released as far as information and also when or if the LC300 will even come to the USA market. Recent comments from Toyota indicate that the LC300 will not be a north america model and we'll get something like a Landcruiser badge as a sub-model on the 4Runner or ?? but not the real land cruiser.

I feel like you just described a 4Runner, haha. But, understood based on your follow up posts. Sounds like if the 4Runner added 2000 lb to the towing capacity it'd be a perfect fit for you.

 

[Jetboy]

I feel like you just described a 4Runner, haha. But, understood based on your follow up posts. Sounds like if the 4Runner added 2000 lb to the towing capacity it'd be a perfect fit for you.

That's pretty much it. I really like my 4Runner. It's the ultimate swiss army knife that does almost anything you want. And it's bulletproof. I'd much rather have a v8 4Runner than a GX. But there just isn't one. And the way the market is now with a big shortage of 4Runners, I can trade down in value to a same year, same mile, gx. It just makes more sense than a supercharger financially.

 

[JSparky]

I'm considering just machining out the eyes on my Fox setup and using a rubber bushing from an OEM set. I have a CNC mill, so I just need to take some measurements and order the OEM replacement set and then mill out the lower eye hole to match. What I'm not sure about is whether there is enough material in the eye to make that work.

It's only the lower set that goes out on me. The upper one lasts a long time. they are much more protected from elements than the lower one I suppose.

I had ADS build my rears with rubber bushings on the lower shock mount. 2.5” with adjusters. Not sure if they can do the same for a front application but it may be worth giving them a call, they’re very easy to work with for custom stuff.

 

[Muzzle of Bees]

WOW, I'm reading your post and wondering if you have read this thread. I don't want to create DRAMA... but cant help but react a bit.... Almost wondering if it is a troll post.


If your post is real...
I'm glad you made it down... but "beginners luck" and back bear are not exactly cool! It is what causes what happened in this thread and gets more things shut down and puts others in harms way.

You might just have natural ability.. and that is great, but first offroad experience down backbear is not a generally something to encourage. Just had to say that..

You are correct in that it is not "hard" at all. But, any mistake is a disaster and it gets it shut down for others to enjoy in the future. It's an awesome experience and I hope I can continue to take family and friends on it. I can only hope that people have enough respect for it not to get it shut down.

Everyone is different and I'm sure you were fine. I was like you at one point.. thought everyone was just like me and could not understand all the hype about things being dangerous... (I've done all the major adventure sports since I was a kid) But then I started guiding newbies offroad.. and I got a totally different perspective on what I took for grated that people knew as common sense. Anyone can learn... but some peoples instincts are totally off and need some seat time to get the basics down.

Also... conditions can change quickly. A casual drive can suddenly become a crazy mess off-road with rain or snow.. and you can't control the weather or predict it well in the mountains. So if your confidence is up now... just wait til you get caught in bad weather.... it will give you a totally different perspective... mother nature always wins and needs to be respected.

I think I'm actually guilty of encouraging people to try this trail without much experience myself. Thinking differently now.

I wish the improved roads we dd that regularly kill people were shut down and fixed when predictably bad things lurk.

 

[shrub1]

I'm not totally sure. My needs have changed a lot over the last year and really need a vehicle that requires a lot less frequent maintenance. And I need one that that can tow more. But I really don't want a full size truck. So... I'm kinda stuck with not a lot of alternatives. But I still need the utility of being able to go off road - at least as well as a stock 4R if not more so. Probably won't be going to the normal offroad trips I like to do for at least a year or two. And moab 4-5 times a year is looking unlikely at this point.

Top candidate is a GX460. It checks most the boxes I need - able to comfortably tow 5000lbs. All my offroad stuff fits on it. So I can just keep all my skids, sliders, suspension, wheels and tires, etc. And it has 6th gear, so I can run lower diff gears for even better towing and off-road use and still have good highway cruising rpms.

Downside to the GX is the plastics are really low and kinda ugly. It's heavy - way too heavy for what it is. And no rear locker. GX is very easy to add crawl control since there's just the module to plug in and the rest is in the screen menu. I have a spare set of 4.56 diffs with rear e-locker 8.2 diff already, but I'd need a correct housing for it to swap over.

So the GX is the top candidate as of now. If I could find a reasonably priced LC200 I'd go there. But there just aren't many or any for sale in my area. And the LX is just so damn ugly I'm not sure I can live with it. And the AHC makes any sort of mods really tough. OTOH the AHC is a fantastic system if you leave it alone and does the height adjustment right. So it's compelling in some ways.

So that's kinda where I'm at. I've reached the limit to me of what makes sense for the 4Runner platform - really the drive train is the limiting issue. And it makes more sense to swap to a GX than to spend $6-7k on a supercharger.

The LC300 and new Tundra were both supposed to be announced this month or next. Now it's all unknown. Was kinda waiting for those to drop so I'd know if I'd rather wait for one of them, but now it's unknown when they'll be released as far as information and also when or if the LC300 will even come to the USA market. Recent comments from Toyota indicate that the LC300 will not be a north america model and we'll get something like a Landcruiser badge as a sub-model on the 4Runner or ?? but not the real land cruiser.

It's a bummer because the 4Runner is kinda just what I like. I like the styling. The interior is great and comfortable for me. The size is just right. The on/off road comfort is great. If it had a v8 option or even just a 6AT I'd probably be perfectly happy keeping it for another 5 or 6 years. But I really just need better towing ability and it's not very good at that. And it's my changing needs more than the 4Runner. It's just not quite the right fit right now.

Thanks for the detailed reply.
Now that my 4Runner is sold and have some time to decide. I'll say I'm still thinking about the Rubi even though I have a reservation in for the BL 2DR Bronco. I want to run 37's for clearance, but I am still drawn to SFA on the Rubi.
Not sure what to do.

 

[SpeedyKevin]

I had ADS build my rears with rubber bushings on the lower shock mount. 2.5” with adjusters. Not sure if they can do the same for a front application but it may be worth giving them a call, they’re very easy to work with for custom stuff.

You have piqued my interests! Are you going to go with ADS fronts too or are you keeping the Radflos?

 

[JSparky]

Definitely ADS once my Radflo coilovers give up the ghost.

 

[JSparky]

You have piqued my interests! Are you going to go with ADS fronts too or are you keeping the Radflos?

Forgot to quote, see comment above.