Obama: US has always paid it's bills

[SeattleCyclist]

If Obamacare is such a failure. . .

If Obamacare is such a failure . . .
why are the Republican reps and senators opposes it. Let it become a disaster as they described it and then make that as your talking points in 2016! What a way to win back the White House! Right? I really don't get it.
Republicans say Obamacare will be a economic catastrophe! So, we will just shutdown the gov't and default (and as if that will not lead us to economic catastrophe).
Here is my simple summary:

• Let Obamacare run through it's course - will result in Economic disaster - Obama gets the blame!
• Prevent Obamacare by tying it to shutdown and default - will result in Economic disaster - Republicans get the blame!

My bottom-line, it's just a matter of who will be blame for the economic meltdown. In America, the most important thing is the pointing fingers. Republicans don't know they have a golden opportunity to capture the WH in 2014 - i.e. Let Obamacare takes its course and don't oppose it!

 

[Jumpkix]

[MENTION=89421]Jumpkix[/MENTION]

Thank you for volunteering to serve! OCS should be a great experience


Back to this conversation ....



It still doesn't change the fact that even though being forced to purchase privately owned health insurance is a bad thing (and I agree it is stupid and I was against the mandate), that is not communism. I understand your family fled communism but O-care as it is called is not communism. You are simply wrong to think that. In fact it is a lot closer to fascism (although still far away) than communism.

Mine family did not flee the communists so I cannot relate. We have been here in America before 1900.

Assuming the enlisted don't beat the crap out of me lol.

Yes, I should clarify that. Being forced to buy health insurance is not by itself communism, but you don't think it's a step in that direction when they take away your choice to buy your own coverage? It scares me that so many people here in our country think that we are entitled to health care, therefore the government must provide it for us.

 

[RunninInGA]

If Obamacare is such a failure . . .
why are the Republican reps and senators opposes it. Let it become a disaster as they described it and then make that as your talking points in 2016! What a way to win back the White House! Right? I really don't get it.
Republicans say Obamacare will be a economic catastrophe! So, we will just shutdown the gov't and default (and as if that will not lead us to economic catastrophe).
Here is my simple summary:

• Let Obamacare run through it's course - will result in Economic disaster - Obama gets the blame!
• Prevent Obamacare by tying it to shutdown and default - will result in Economic disaster - Republicans get the blame!

My bottom-line, it's just a matter of who will be blame for the economic meltdown. In America, the most important thing is the pointing fingers. Republicans don't know they have a golden opportunity to capture the WH in 2014 - i.e. Let Obamacare takes its course and don't oppose it!

No. Look what happened when Republicans wanted to modify social security and medicare in the 80's and 90's. It was immediately told to everyone with ears that the Republicans hated old people and the sick/poor.

For me, it isn't the healthcare that bothers me - it is the implementation and maintenance of those programs that scare me. The EPA, IRS, and many of the other acronym agencies have been used repeatedly throughout history to attack political opponents....I would prefer to keep my healthcare out of the hands of those trying to prove political points.....especially those that want to "make it hurt" with regards to the current shutdown.

 

[RunninInGA]

Well its no secret here that some people don't like the Federal Government at all or in general.

But I just feel it is necessary to point out that the DoE's spending overwhelming goes to funding public schools (paying teacher salaries and other spending) and not to the 5,000 or so DoE employees.

So when people say get rid of the DoE they are saying get rid of (FEDERAL) public funding for education.

I found this interesting. Go to the link to see the charts formatted correctly.

The federal government allocated approximately $138 billion on education in fiscal year 2013. Calculating that figure is challenging. Federal programs administered by the U.S. Department of Education appear in two separate parts of the federal budget, and other agencies administer large programs as well. Furthermore, measuring spending on the federal student loan program is not straightforward, and the government provides significant subsidies for higher education in the form of tax benefits.

Therefore, the $138 billion figure includes the annual appropriation for the U.S. Department of Education, spending for the U.S. Department of Education not subject to annual appropriations (i.e. mandatory spending), school meal programs administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the Head Start program in the Departments of Health and Human Services, the forgone revenue and spending on education tax benefits for individuals, the cost of the subsidy the government provides on all student loans disbursed in a single year, and military and veterans education benefits.

The federal government spent a total of $3.7 trillion in fiscal year 2012. That means the approximate $138 billion in education spending accounts for less than 4 percent of the entire federal budget.
Federal Education Spending, FY 2013 ($ billions)
Dept. of Education: Appropriation 65.7
Dept. of Education: Mandatory (excludes student loans) 15.9
School Nutrition Programs* 14.9
Head Start Programs* 8.0
Education Tax Expenditures for Individuals 21.0
American Opportunity Tax Credit (Refundable) 6.5
Student Loan Subsidies (Newly Disbursed Loans)** -5.5
Servicemembers Education Benefits* 0.5
Veterans Education Benefits* 11.1
TOTAL 137.8
Sources: New America Foundation; U.S. Departments of Education, Health & Human Services, Agriculture, Defense, and Veterans Affairs; White House Office of Management and Budget; Congressional Budget Office
*Post-sequester figures are not available; uses pre-sequester FY 2013 allocations.
**Reflects fair-value accounting method.
Department of Education Appropriation

Nearly all federal education programs are funded through the annual appropriations process, but a few, such as student loans, are funded on an ongoing basis through mandatory spending. The appropriations for the Department of Education totaled $65.7 billion in fiscal year 2013, accounting for 5.5 percent of the $1.2 trillion in total appropriations funding across all federal agencies that year.

FY 2012 Spending by Agency
Source: White House Office of Management and Budget

Numerous programs make up the $65.7 billion fiscal year 2013 appropriation for the U.S. Department of Education. The majority of funding went to just three programs: Elementary and Secondary Education Act Title I Grants to Local Education Agencies, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) State Grants, and the Pell Grant program for college students. Collectively these three programs received $53.0 billion in fiscal year 2013.

Source: U.S. Department of Education Budget Tables

A relatively small number of federal education programs are funded through mandatory spending. Budget figures for the largest of these, federally-subsidized student loans for postsecondary education, are difficult to compare to programs funded through the appropriations process. This is because the budget reflects student loan costs under a special set of accrual accounting rules that are meant to show the lifetime costs of loan cohorts in present value terms. More information on federal student loan budget rules can be found here. The main programs other than student loans that regularly receive mandatory funding include a part of the Pell Grant program and Vocational Rehabilitation state grants.
Department of Education Appropriation Since 2000

After the passage of the No Child Left Behind Act in 2002, appropriations for some federal education programs grew rapidly from fiscal years 2001 through 2004. Specifically, Elementary and Secondary Education Act Title I Grants to Local Education Agencies and IDEA State Grants were allocated significant funding increases. Additional funding for the Pell Grant program also contributed to overall appropriations increases for federal education programs. The rate of growth slowed later in the decade, however, and funding actually declined in nominal terms from 2006 to 2008. In fiscal year 2009, significant funding increases for new and existing education programs were included in economic stimulus legislation, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, causing a rapid one-year increase in federal spending.

Source: President's 2014 Budget Request Historical Tables
Published Aug 30 2013 19:24

Background & Analysis

 

[SeattleCyclist]

No. Look what happened when Republicans wanted to modify social security and medicare in the 80's and 90's. It was immediately told to everyone with ears that the Republicans hated old people and the sick/poor.

For me, it isn't the healthcare that bothers me - it is the implementation and maintenance of those programs that scare me. The EPA, IRS, and many of the other acronym agencies have been used repeatedly throughout history to attack political opponents....I would prefer to keep my healthcare out of the hands of those trying to prove political points.....especially those that want to "make it hurt" with regards to the current shutdown.

Exactly my point! The bad IMPLEMENTATION (from your point above) is what will be the battlecry of the Republicans! Look, the Day-1 implementation of the Obamacare was already a disaster. The website was so inept. But people are not talking about that failure! What are they talking about . . yes, the republicans shutting this government down!
I just don't understand why Republicans are not grabbing this golden opportunity. Let Obamacare set this country on fire and blame it on Obama and his Democrat allies. They will lose the WH in 2016 and the majority in senate!
But what does the Republican do instead, they want to grab the blame by shutting this government down! I don't get it!

 

[RunninInGA]

Exactly my point! The bad IMPLEMENTATION (from your point above) is what will be the battlecry of the Republicans! Look, the Day-1 implementation of the Obamacare was already a disaster. The website was so inept. But people are not talking about that failure! What are they talking about . . yes, the republicans shutting this government down!
I just don't understand why Republicans are not grabbing this golden opportunity. Let Obamacare set this country on fire and blame it on Obama and his Democrat allies. They will lose the WH in 2016 and the majority in senate!
But what does the Republican do instead, they want to grab the blame by shutting this government down! I don't get it!

I hear what you're saying. Didn't I hear yesterday that the website will take 6 months to repair? When has any government program this large been reversed once it's been funded though?

It's gonna be implemented and there's nothing you or I can do about it, unfortunately.

 

[Jumpkix]

Ron Swanson on city government - YouTube

My thoughts on government.

 

[SeattleCyclist]

I hear what you're saying. Didn't I hear yesterday that the website will take 6 months to repair? When has any government program this large been reversed once it's been funded though?

It's gonna be implemented and there's nothing you or I can do about it, unfortunately.

Isn't that fortunate for the Republicans! Obamacare will be a big failure as they described it and it will be a best talking point in the 2016 election!
Look, no one was talking about Obamacare's Day 1 catastrophe because people are busy talking about the "Republican-sponsored" shutdown. If I were Bhoener, I will make the Tea Party'ers shut up, let the government open, raise the debt ceiling and let Obamacare fail on its own! That way, there is no one to blame but Obama and the Democrats.

 

[ndcent]

I'm astonished people want to consider poor people, elementary school children and the sick or retired elderly when discussing debt; in the face of an unprecedented 24/7/365 military-industrial complex US war machine and the wealthy connected politicians in charge of those war mongering corporations.

It's Timmy's school lunch that's fleecing America and pushing us into mf'ing communism...got it.

 

[ndcent]

Isn't that fortunate for the Republicans! Obamacare will be a big failure as they described it and it will be a best talking point in the 2016 election!
Look, no one was talking about Obamacare's Day 1 catastrophe because people are busy talking about the "Republican-sponsored" shutdown. If I were Bhoener, I will make the Tea Party'ers shut up, let the government open, raise the debt ceiling and let Obamacare fail on its own! That way, there is no one to blame but Obama and the Democrats.

I disagree. I think that plan would backfire on the republicans for several reasons.

Mostly it's a catch-22 because if it succeeds they'll look inbred for trying to shut it down (certainly moreso with their cowardly hostage holding of the government.) And if it fails, republican supporters will then wonder why they did indeed let it fail. There isn't going to be some grand "I told you so, Vote Republican 2016" moment for the party - or if there is, for shame, America.

Intentionally harming your country to prove some backwards point is ridiculous and makes me think of mean stupid high school girls.

One shining light out of all of this though is more people realizing that the two party system is broken, because it is.

 

[RunninInGA]

Intentionally harming your country to prove some backwards point is ridiculous and makes me think of mean stupid high school girls.

Agreed. War Veterans Memorials being closed down is stupid......"make it hurt."

 

[BrianSD_42]

but you don't think it's a step in that direction when they take away your choice to buy your own coverage? It scares me that so many people here in our country think that we are entitled to health care, therefore the government must provide it for us

[MENTION=89421]Jumpkix[/MENTION]

I think you mean "taking away my choice to not buy any healthcare" and to that point YES I am against the mandate.

However I do believe the US Government does have a right to regulate health care with parts of the law (aka Obama Care) that specifies certain practices such as dropping someone once they actually get sick are illegal.

Something needed to be done. O-care is not perfect but neither was the system we had before it.

One thing I suggest you look into is the difference between capitalism, socialism, communism and fascism. The US is a hybrid capitalist & socialist economy --- long before Obama care.

Socail Security ... yeah that is socialist yet widely widely popular.
Medicaid .... also socialist in nature.
Public libraries .. again same
VA Healthcare System ... again socialist
GI Bill for Veterans .... same type of socialist system

Its like when people say keep your socialist hands off my medicare .... LoL. They don't realize that the US already is a Socialist & Capitalist society and has been since Roosevelt.

BTW do you know that the idea for the mandate was created in a white paper by the Heritage Foundation? It was a conservative idea and Romney implemented it. Now it is somehow blasphemy to conservatives. Why?? Why??? well surprise the line between conservative and liberal has shifted to the right.

BTW ... I seriously encourage you to sign up for the GI-Bill (whatever version is for Officers) because if you try to get out things will get complicated. A lot of officers find themselves unable to find high paying work in the private sector because most of what you do in the military doesn't directly transfer to civilian sector. There are lots of exceptions of course but the average line officer isn't able to switch over as easily as say a nuclear engineering officer or satellite / geo-space something something officer.

 

[BigNuge]

[MENTION=89421]Jumpkix[/MENTION]

I think you mean "taking away my choice to not buy any healthcare" and to that point YES I am against the mandate.

However I do believe the US Government does have a right to regulate health care with parts of the law (aka Obama Care) that specifies certain practices such as dropping someone once they actually get sick are illegal.

Something needed to be done. O-care is not perfect but neither was the system we had before it.

Socail Security ... yeah that is socialist yet widely widely popular.
Medicaid .... also socialist in nature.
Public libraries .. again same
VA Healthcare System ... again socialist
GI Bill for Veterans .... same type of socialist system

Now there's a fitting statement "O-care is not perfect but neither was the system we had before it"

I've argued with libs over this many times and when they throw that gem out there it really strikes you......what a ridiculous statement.

And yeah, the government ROYALLY f@cks up every single element of every single program you mention above. Sure, let's throw healthcare at the government for its input, Using your apparent position of "what the f@ck, let's give this a whirl"

What are you putting in your coffee dude???

Healthcare is NOT a human right, it is a service that has to be paid for. I work hard to pay for mine, now you want me to pay more & get less so the other half of this lazy ass country can get more $hit free???

 

[RunninInGA]

I'm actually a fairly middle or the road guy on these issues it is just that /off-topic/ leans so far to the right that I sound like a liberal.

Had a guy tell me while negotiating terms of a real estate purchase agreement yesterday that he and his wife "are really connected in this town." Struck me as odd. If you have to tell me you're connected - are you really?

This statement reminded me of that conversation. I'm not suggesting you should reconsider identifying yourself as a liberal by any stretch by the way.

 

[-JD-]

Healthcare is NOT a human right, it is a service that has to be paid for.

What about people who are too sick, disabled, etc to work? Or those who have either a pre existing condition or simply didn't want to pay and are now faced with astronomical medical bills? Should they simply be left to die?

As I've mentioned previously, one of the strains on healthcare that is being passed on to those who do pay is uninsured people receiving emergency care. Also the idea that government is "running" healthcare is ridiculous. That would be a single payer system which you should have, but did not get.

 

[BrianSD_42]

And yeah, the government ROYALLY f@cks up every single element of every single program you mention above. Sure, let's throw healthcare at the government for its input, Using your apparent position of "what the f@ck, let's give this a whirl"

[MENTION=98468]BigNuge[/MENTION]

Unfortunately you are just plain wrong.

Social Security ---> my grandparents are still receiving the checks for the system they PAID INTO via taxes (and our family military service, gramps fought in Germany) over the decades.
Medicaid ----> not perfect but still going strong
Public libraries ----> still going strong. we just opened a new one in SD a few days ago.
VA Healthcare System ----> works great. sure the claims department is backed up but come down to La Jolla VA hospital and you will be taken care of much better than with Blue Cross / Blue Shield who would dump you once you got sick
GI Bill for Veterans ----> Works great; I used it to fund my college

Healthcare is NOT a human right, it is a service that has to be paid for. I work hard to pay for mine, now you want me to pay more & get less so the other half of this lazy ass country can get more $hit free???

BTW with regards to this comment you made [MENTION=98468]BigNuge[/MENTION] ...

Sorry to break it to you and I sympathize with the sentiment (ask me about immigration lol) but the simple FACT is that those people were already getting taken care of at every hospital in America. My GF is a nurse and tells me stories that back this up all the time. Also like a 1000 articles on the web have covered this fact:

* Before O-care anyone who was in poverty would get treatment and would not be turned away
* Anyone who had a strong income or middle income would have to go into savings, debt and then bankruptcy to pay their medical bills before they could get treatment or as a by-product of treatment.

As in WE ALREADY HAD A SYSTEM where the poor were getting free healthcare and hospitals already re-incorporated those costs into health insurance costs. You were already paying for them. The difference is that now under O-care those people are officially covered and forced to pay some small amount for the coverage.

 

[BrianSD_42]

Had a guy tell me while negotiating terms of a real estate purchase agreement yesterday that he and his wife "are really connected in this town." Struck me as odd. If you have to tell me you're connected - are you really?

This statement reminded me of that conversation. I'm not suggesting you should reconsider identifying yourself as a liberal by any stretch by the way.

Well I'm not a member of either party.

You could say I am a California independent who can think for himself.

I was very disappointed in California's recent (last 2 weeks) new gun laws and immigration laws. :bolt:

 

[bofa]

Well I'm not a member of either party.

You could say I am a California independent who can think for himself.

I was very disappointed in California's recent (last 2 weeks) new gun laws and immigration laws. :bolt:

Didn't the governor veto those changes this week?

Edit: I guess not... the article I read earlier was selective. It seems 11 of 17 were passed. :sadwave:

 

[RunninInGA]

Didn't the governor veto those changes this week?

Edit: I guess not... the article I read earlier was selective. It seems 11 of 17 were passed. :sadwave:

I heard this too, but haven't seen the specific vetoes that were exercised.

 

[BigNuge]

[MENTION=98468]BigNuge[/MENTION]

Unfortunately you are just plain wrong.

Social Security ---> my grandparents are still receiving the checks for the system they PAID INTO via taxes (and our family military service, gramps fought in Germany) over the decades.
Medicaid ----> not perfect but still going strong
Public libraries ----> still going strong. we just opened a new one in SD a few days ago.
VA Healthcare System ----> works great. sure the claims department is backed up but come down to La Jolla VA hospital and you will be taken care of much better than with Blue Cross / Blue Shield who would dump you once you got sick
GI Bill for Veterans ----> Works great; I used it to fund my college




BTW with regards to this comment you made [MENTION=98468]BigNuge[/MENTION] ...

Sorry to break it to you and I sympathize with the sentiment (ask me about immigration lol) but the simple FACT is that those people were already getting taken care of at every hospital in America. My GF is a nurse and tells me stories that back this up all the time. Also like a 1000 articles on the web have covered this fact:

* Before O-care anyone who was in poverty would get treatment and would not be turned away
* Anyone who had a strong income or middle income would have to go into savings, debt and then bankruptcy to pay their medical bills before they could get treatment or as a by-product of treatment.

As in WE ALREADY HAD A SYSTEM where the poor were getting free healthcare and hospitals already re-incorporated those costs into health insurance costs. You were already paying for them. The difference is that now under O-care those people are officially covered and forced to pay some small amount for the coverage.

Brian, I hate to have to do it but you just aren't seeing the whole picture. That Commiefornia air is messing with your head.

Medicaid :You scare me big time with this one. Medicaid is another in a long line of viciously abused and mismanaged programs. You really don't see this??????????? Medicaid Is Failing the People It Is Intended to Help | The Foundry: Conservative Policy News Blog from The Heritage Foundation

VA :We recently lost my grandfather, a Marine who served in Korea. Please do try to tell me how well this POS institution FRAUGHT with cronyism and wasteful spending (and oh yeah, its broke as a joke) serves the Veterans (its only job BTW). I should add that I was an EMT for 6 years right out of High School. Transported many Vets to the VA. What a pitiful sight those places are..... VA backlog fails ailing veterans: Our view

Libraries :I will admit that I do see value in public libraries. But yet again, liberal/Progressive BS has plagued the management of this public institution and rendered it a glutenous pig of expense and waste. Its a friggin building full of books and the GOVERNMENT F$UCKED THAT UP TOO!!!!!!!!!!!! You're right....they must be doing a good job, lets throw healthcare at them :frusty: Letter: Libraries a big waste of money | Opinion | The Advocate ? Baton Rouge, LA

And the crown jewel:
Social Security :I've got 20 years of paying into this system which is going to be broke WELL before I will be using it. This has only been a major problem for the last 20 years, I can see how you wouldn't know about it :doh: Social Security Is Failing Even Faster Than We Thought - DailyFinance

The fact that you even remotely think the government is running these programs effectively and efficiently is scary, please tell me you are joking.

As far as the GI Bill, I have not heard much (or done much research) in terms of this system. If it worked for you then thats great!

Our population has grown so much, and so many have found the loopholes in all of the social programs (Example after example of this abuse is everywhere), as well as the all time high in political corruption, we can NEVER expect the government to do what is in the citizens best interest.

Sure, the poor are in ER's for sprained fingers (and serious injuries). The issue is that Healthcare is not a human right, it is a service that costs money and needs to be paid for. The math that you and every other liberal REFUSE to accept is that for EVERY SINGLE THING someone receives for NOTHING, someone else has had to work for (on top of their own needs).

Obamacare.....let it fly. If it brings us to the brink quicker then all the better. Im sick and tired of kowtowing to this pansy-ass society of leaches, pu$$ies & progressives (just ask me how I feel about schools & the governments intrusion into my life and how I raise my Son). When the government chokes itself out lets see how many useless leaches are sitting with their pockets inside out and hands in the air wondering what to do (FYI, there will be lots of them...) because they have let the government run their lives and taken handout after handout, never learning the value of getting off your ass and standing on their own two feet. Ill be one of the many productive/contributing members of society who has lived a disciplined life, knowing that NOTHING IS FREE (and have been providing for myself and my family WITHOUT government handouts). Work hard for the things you need, and maybe even some of the things you want.

Just try and tell me these "assistance" programs are working when day after day I see EBT cards being used for EVERYTHING they're not supposed to be used for (just ask ANY cashier at a grocery store what they see). All the while yapping on their $200-$400 iPhone, 4 kids 1 year apart in age, covered in tattoos & jewelry, wearing designer (albeight ugly) clothes and accessories. Now lets add healthcare to their portfolio. And while we are at it, lets degrade MY HEALTHCARE/INSURANCE options by penalizing me for having "Cadillac" plan THAT I PAY FOR. Remember me, the productive member of society.......one of the ones FUNDING THIS BULLSHIT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

In closing, I would like to say that I am not this heartless monster. My anger and frustration grow every day, and it is all based on what I see every day. The math is simple, work hard, be a contributing member of society, and you will EARN what you need (and maybe even some things that you want). In the event that you fall on hard times there should be some form of assistance, I do believe in "ASSISTANCE". the minute it is abused you're out, PLAIN AND SIMPLE!! In nature (as it is supposed to be in life) you get what you put in. Do a poor job hunting you don't eat, and you die. Do a poor job preparing for a long winter (gathering wood, storing food, building/improving shelter-housing etc) you freeze/starve/die. We have circumvented this system FAR TOO MUCH. Do I think it needs to be quite that brutal, no. But for the most part that is the model that has served nature best. It provides a natural balance of input/output, risk/reward. There are no sure bets, but this is the best system.

The answer is difficult, and most don't want to hear it. Stop rewarding failure, stop rewarding laziness, stop taking the things that the productive people in society have earned and START shutting the leaches off.

Start doing that and watch how much the illegal immigrations slows down....and oh yeah, catch all of them and ship them back home. Every. Single. One. I will GLADLY help pay for that with my tax dollars...... (sorry, off topic I know).

Good solid conservative values built this country.

Liberal/Progressive/Socialist/Communist values have been eating at it, eroding its foundation since the depression. You live in the flagship state of these values BTW.

We have let it creep in far too long and far too much....