Off-road situations where the A-Trac really shines?

MoonStorm

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This question is specifically about A-TRAC and targeted towards more serious off-roaders or anyone having a more deeper understanding of this particular system. We'll ignore the locker.

After reading through various sources of information, and this forum is one of the best sources I had found with the manual being the least, I took my TE truck in the woods for a series of tests, just to see how this particular system performs. Looked for several inches of fresh snow on an incline and stopped. Turned on the A-TRAC in 4L and pressed on the acceleration. Initially gently but that didn't seem to wake up the system even when two tires lost traction. I was unfortunately expecting that. So steadily and fairly quickly to reach its trigger point seemed to be the way to go. Obviously in a situation like this you'd like the system to kick in as soon as possible, but as we all already know, the system only activates at about 1500 RPMs to brake the wheels that lost traction. And that's exactly what happened. Unfortunately until then, the two tires that lost traction, one in front and another in the rear, have already dug themselves deep and the other two were just resting there doing nothing. I know this because someone else looked at the tires from the outside. When A-TRAC finally kicked in to make all four tires spin, it was too late, no matter how fast I was getting to that RPM. The truck already had dug itself too deep, well beyond the layer of snow in this particular situation. I repeated this experiment several times.

So, does anyone have any idea as to why the system got designed this way, being so slow in picking up tire slippage? Was it a conscious decision behind it or more of a technical limitation? And where would this system in this state be useful, apart from driving with an already achieved momentum through mud, snow or sand. For most other off-road situations you'd need more precision at low speed, and good traction on the tires that are more surely footed. If that happens only at 1500+ RPMs, the jolt you'll get when the system eventually kicks in wouldn't be well received at all. I heard people saying A-TRAC is a very good replacement for lockers. Couldn't disagree more due to the way it behaves but let's not talk about that now.

Saying that, I do have another question though. I have a feeling there is more than meets the eye with this system. I felt that the truck gets better traction and performs better overall, for example on steep inclines on dried up trails filled with loose rocks, with A-TRAC on, better than using its terrain management setting, even when no slippage is detected. However I couldn't find any info on that. Is there more to it than braking freely spinning tires or is it just the Placebo effect?
 
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A search for ATRAC will show a lot of posts where it really helps. I'm not sure why a TE owner would use it in place of Multi-
Terrain.

I have a TE also and don't use ATRAC. I use the Multi-Terrain which I think is a variable ATRAC from loose to tight.

I was on packed power a few days ago, had it in 4H with M/T on Mud, Snow, Sand -- the first step. Hit the power hard and it spun the tires and kept them spinning as it picked up speed, also revved up kinda high where I felt I needed to let off. I think it did it's job well, I would have tried a bit more but my wife thought I was trying to kill us. My son wanted his turn.

Try M/T in deep snow and see how it compares.
 
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I have a TE also and don't use ATRAC. I use the Multi-Terrain which I think is a variable ATRAC from loose to tight.

I was on packed power a few days ago, had it in 4H with M/T on Mud, Snow, Sand -- the first step. Hit the power hard and it spun the tires and kept them spinning as it picked up speed, also revved up kinda high where I felt I needed to let off. I think it did it's job well, I would have tried a bit more but my wife thought I was trying to kill us. My son wanted his turn.

Try M/T in deep snow and see how it compares.

I appreciate your input but this question is just about the A-TRAC. I got stuck on purpose in snow trying to understand its usefulness.

The multi-terrain in 4H is different, you're right. It is however useless if you've stopped and in a sticky situation already. With terrain select on, it simply refused to spin the wheels no matter how hard I pressed on the acceleration.

But let's focus on just the A-TRAC alone please.
 
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First, off I have never wheeled in snow in my 4Runner, so I can't give you details on ATRAC in that particular situation. I'm guessing it is a lot like deep mud and ATRAC is not great there. You sometimes need a locker and wheel speed to get out.

I can also tell you ATRAC generally works pretty well in low speed trail situations. I've never noticed major hesitation... It's not as good as a locker. It excels in keeping the vehicle from crabbing around in off camber and it also keeps stress off the diff...

I'm also pretty sure your problem is not really ATRAC. Even if you had all 4 wheels spinning... you are going to sink. You need less ground pressure. Lower your tire pressure. Flip on your locker and turn off all the other BS and get on the throttle. You may just not have enough tire... Tire is usually key in all situations.

Overall, ATRAC works really well. All the other multi terrain select BS...not so much.
 
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First, off I have never wheeled in snow in my 4Runner, so I can't give you details on ATRAC in that particular situation. I'm guessing it is a lot like deep mud and ATRAC is not great there. You sometimes need a locker and wheel speed to get out.

I can also tell you ATRAC generally works pretty well in low speed trail situations. I've never noticed major hesitation... It's not as good as a locker. It excels in keeping the vehicle from crabbing around in off camber and it also keeps stress off the diff...

I'm also pretty sure your problem is not really ATRAC. Even if you had all 4 wheels spinning... you are going to sink. You need less ground pressure. Lower your tire pressure. Flip on your locker and turn off all the other BS and get on the throttle. You may just not have enough tire... Tire is usually key in all situations.

Thanks, but I 'm still trying to understand the reasoning behind its design. Having from earlier on all four wheels spinning is far better than just two digging in until you got to 1500 RPMs.
 
First, off I have never wheeled in snow in my 4Runner, so I can't give you details on ATRAC in that particular situation. I'm guessing it is a lot like deep mud and ATRAC is not great there. You sometimes need a locker and wheel speed to get out.

I can also tell you ATRAC generally works pretty well in low speed trail situations. I've never noticed major hesitation... It's not as good as a locker. It excels in keeping the vehicle from crabbing around in off camber and it also keeps stress off the diff...

I'm also pretty sure your problem is not really ATRAC. Even if you had all 4 wheels spinning... you are going to sink. You need less ground pressure. Lower your tire pressure. Flip on your locker and turn off all the other BS and get on the throttle. You may just not have enough tire... Tire is usually key in all situations.

Overall, ATRAC works really well. All the other multi terrain select BS...not so much.

You mentioned off camber situations. If one tire is in the air, I suspect you'd have to push it hard to have the other one spin, am I right? And when it does, isn't that too harsh at that RPM? Especially on rocks?
 
Thanks, but I 'm still trying to understand the reasoning behind its design. Having from earlier on all four wheels spinning is far better than just two digging in until you got to 1500 RPMs.

The system is designed to be a compromise... to provide near equal wheel speeds without over stressing the drive line or brakes.

There is no way these brake activated limited slip systems can replace a mechanical locker. It's good, but not that good. And like I eluded to before, there are situations and various use cases where it is better than a locke. But just as man where a locker is better. So you really need both to have the best of both worlds.

And again, there is no way to overcome poor ground pressure without making the vehicle lighter or increasing tire contact patch. 4 wheels spinning is not enough from a dead stop in a million situations in a big heavy truck with small all terrain tires.
 
The system is designed to be a compromise... to provide near equal wheel speeds without over stressing the drive line or brakes.

There is no way these brake activated limited slip systems can replace a mechanical locker. It's good, but not that good. And like I eluded to before, there are situations and various use cases where it is better than a locke. But just as man where a locker is better. So you really need both to have the best of both worlds.

And again, there is no way to overcome poor ground pressure without making the vehicle lighter or increasing tire contact patch. 4 wheels spinning is not enough from a dead stop in a million situations in a big heavy truck with small all terrain tires.

So you're saying its design is not able to detect slippages earlier? Why the high RPMs? And btw, I have some pretty aggressive Duratracs on it and boy did those two tires dig the truck in until the other two started to see some action.
 
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You mentioned off camber situations. If one tire is in the air, I suspect you'd have to push it hard to have the other one spin, am I right? And when it does, isn't that too harsh at that RPM? Especially on rocks?

Interesting FYI from the manual:

When the rear differential is locked
(vehicles with a rear differential lock system)
The active traction control system is activated only when vehicle speed is
less than 4 mph (6 km/h)
 
As I said a couple of times already, this talk is not about the locker. It was turned off during my tests.

I'm not sure what your goal is here... There are places where ATRAC works fantastic, There are places where it is not so hot. Those places where it is not so hot are much better served by a mechanical locker.

Also, there are places where nothing will work besides larger tires or a lighter vehicle with more travel... Serious off-roading in a multi-use vehicle is a series of compromises...

If you understand how an open diff works, it should be pretty easy for you to understand how ATRAC does it's business via the ABS system.
 
I'm not sure what your goal is here... There are places where ATRAC works fantastic, There are places where it is not so hot. Those places where it is not so hot are much better served by a mechanical locker.

Also, there are places where nothing will work besides larger tires or a lighter vehicle with more travel... Serious off-roading in a multi-use vehicle is a series of compromises...

If you understand how an open diff works, it should be pretty easy for you to understand how ATRAC does it's business via the ABS system.

Yes, I understand how it works, I just don't get why it's so sluggish in kicking in.
 
In snow, I never engage ATRAC or 4LO for that matter. I have never had a problem getting stuck and I have driven in some pretty deep stuff!

I can tell you that ATRAC absolutely shines offroad in certain situations. Particularly when you have a tire completely in the air. ATRAC will help you keep moving easily and it works great. The big difference between ATRAC and a locker is that you will lose a little momentum with ATRAC because the wheel needs to slip first before it activates. This all happens very quickly but sometimes momentum is the key...Lockers provide equal torque all the time, when engaged.

This past October I followed a built 4th Gen without ATRAC for the better part of a day. The 4th made it over all the same obstacles but with MUCH more drama. He had to constantly back up and retry obstacles, give much higher throttle input and just plain struggle to make it at times. My 5th with ATRAC literally crawled right over the same stuff like it wasn't there.

I made this video when I came home to show the difference...

 
The wheel speed sensors pulse.. The granularity is not analog... The system tries to detect deltas, but from a dead stop its not that fast. Also, the system is pulsing the brakes to equalize tq output from the open diff.. it can't be super aggressive and stay reliable... once the TQ output goes high... It needs to back down. the ABS system is primarily for braking and they don't want it to blow up doing double duty as a traction aid to get you out of mud (when a locker is simply a better solution).

This is not unique to Toyota. ATRAC is pretty much best in class... There is always room for improvement.. but why bother when lockers can easily fill the void. With unlimited budget.. I'm sure a better system could be designed, but most people here find it quite adequate for its intended use.
 
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I don't think it's slow to "kick in" at all. The truck is trying to figure out what to do.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d3j9fko1qAc

Technically, that is not ATRAC. It's crawl and not the same crawl offered on the 5th gen. They upgraded it a bit in the new Tacoma, but it is similar. The unique thing about crawl is the truck is in charge of everything except steering. So its not detecting wheel spin... Its more predictive.. Think of it as a programmed play on the throttle and brakes vs needing to be reactive... It could never do this at high output or sudden changes in wheel speed.

This will never get you out of mud BTW, and I'm guessing it would have the same problem in deep snow. Wheel speed mandatory.....

That particular video is a bit of smoke and mirrors. Any 4wd could get out of that particular situation. Gravity is working with you there.
 
Locker can work in conjunction with a-trac. It is pertinent as someone had mentioned using it.

To really know exactly what is happening you are going to have to hear from someone that designed the system. Everything else is just an inconclusive data set without knowing all of the variables.

Does the system measure wheel friction/resistance? Does it use the gyro, accelerometer, or other motion based instruments? You are just guessing that it is strictly wheel spin that activates it.

You sitting stuck on your belly in a pile of snow actuating the accelerator seems like a pretty ridiculous analog, for obvious reasons, some already mentioned. Just because the wheel stops spinning on one side doesn't mean that the opposing wheel will not spin, chances are it will, particularly if there is a lot of torque involved.

Seems like you would gain a better understanding of its behaviour by driving 8's in a slick snowy parking lot, forcing wheel spin under condition. Deep moguls where more than one wheel has a chance of being in the air would be another.
 
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If you really want to test ATRAC then you need to put your vehicle in many more situations than one. I have used ATRAC several times and i'm pretty sure I would have picked up the 1500 RPM thing.

First I don't get stuck on purpose ever. Second I have never used ATRAC in the snow nor 4LO. VSC works just fine in snow. ATRAC has been used by me in slick muddy rocky situations.

Do you know about TRAC?
 
If you really want to test ATRAC then you need to put your vehicle in many more situations than one. I have used ATRAC several times and i'm pretty sure I would have picked up the 1500 RPM thing.

First I don't get stuck on purpose ever. Second I have never used ATRAC in the snow nor 4LO. VSC works just fine in snow. ATRAC has been used by me in slick muddy rocky situations.

Do you know about TRAC?

Yep, no doubt about putting it in more situations than one...

If you are in the deep soft stuff where you will quickly sink to the frame or diff dragging.. It does not matter how many wheels you have spinning... You are probably going to sink from a dead stop at street pressure. You have to keep that momentum up. But some people don't want to hear that.. They just want to blame the system and not use their heads to come up with a better solution or admit they got into a situation that was too much for the truck. The truck can't overcome the laws of physics, but using a little common sense along with knowing what it can do can take you a long way.
 

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