One more V6 vs V8 ?

[Hitman]

My point to arra was to consider not only the additional difference in purchase price, but insurance, maintenance and gas over however long he's going to own the vehicle. If no one needs me to tell them a V-8 is more expensive, then no one needs you to tell them a V-8 is better for towing than a V-6. Wouldn't anyone with "half a brain" be able to figure out a V-8 is better for towing...especially if they could figure out it's more expensive? I don't think arra has half a brain, I think he's trying to make what is for him, a difficult decision.

Actually, I told him that the V6 over the V8 was a no brainer for ME, because of the fact that I don't tow regularly. I never said he should use towing or the lack of towing as the sole base in his choice of engines.

I never stated people buy the V-6 because they can't afford the V-8. I said arra should consider all of the additional costs beyond the difference in the sticker price before he buys a V-8. You have a perception problem. Did you read the final two sentences in the post? (There were only 3) They explained why I posted the first. You have a perception problem.

Sure you did.... here are your exact words:

It all boils down to what you can afford now and for the life of your ownership experience. I can afford a v-8 and have the philosophy that there is no replacement for displacement. .

No perception problem here, bud.... sounds pretty obvious to me.

I never posed the question...therefore I was never dissatisfied. You do normally answer questions posed to you...even if they are your own...right?



Yes, you did pose the question:

So...would you?


That's why I stated the obvious.

Do you see any benefit in belittling other buyers concerns because they aren't your own?

I didn't belittle any buyers concerns, especially arra's. Don't get upset because I didn't agree with your opinions.

There are more reasons than towing as to why the V-8 might be a better choice...aren't there? When I see the comparison I see the V-6 as an engine that has to work harder to perform to the level the V-8 would. (No replacement for displacement... remember that one) I see the V-8 as an engine that would be a better choice in terms of longevity because it wouldn't have to work as hard as the V-6. If I only plan on owning the vehicle for 3-4 years, then the V-6 may be a better choice. Personally, I would rather try to sell a V-8 in 10 years than a V-6, but that's just me.


Wow, where to start with this one??? First of all, automotive engines spend upwards of 95% of their life in low-demand situations. Think about it... how much of the time does anyone have their vehicle at wide open throttle in comparison to part-throttle/cruising/coasting/idling? The fact of the matter is that neither the V6 or V8 engines spend any considerable time under high-stress conditions. There is absolutely zero evidence of V8 engines outlasting V6 engines because they have to "work" less. That's almost laughable in a street-driven vehicle.

As for resale value.... well, all I can say is this: I don't see gas prices dropping in the next few years, so it would probably be easier to unloaded the V6 4Runner than the V8.


What I find ironic is the guy who can buy any 4Runner he wants thinks the guy who is a little more particular about his engine choice is an elitist. Highlighting your own purchasing decision process for your 4Runner and your Bimmer only makes it more ironic. That's what makes me think you're the guy who is saying to himself, "I coulda had a V-8". I guess we'll just have to believe you when you say you aren't.


Again, the elitist comment was made based upon YOUR attitude of buyers choosing the V6 because the V8 was not affordable. You can keep making comments about me wishing I had the V8, but I'll just laugh them off as usual.... If I wanted a V8 4Runner, I would have one parked in my garage right now. Heck, if I wanted a V8 4Runner bad enough but couldn't afford one, I might even sell my BMW so that I'd have the extra cash

 

[Hitman]

I might be curious to know a bit more about this intriguing character who calls himself "Hitman". I'd ask some specific questions, but I probably wouldn't believe the answers he gave, so it would be pointless.

Yeah, don't bother.... it would be a total waste of time. Besides, I'm not curious to know anything about you at all....

 

[Iowa4Runner]

Yeah, don't bother.... it would be a total waste of time. Besides, I'm not curious to know anything about you at all....

OK, I've got to try just one... Honestly now, how old are you?

 

[Thai]

Hey guys, let's chill out a bit here...it's gonna be a New Year in 2 days!! Let's celebrate and be happy with what we have.

My New Year's Resolution: take my crazy pills on a regular basis. If that fails, then i can always go postal.

 

[Thai]

OK, I've got to try just one... Honestly now, how old are you?

Iowa, please don't feed the fire...this argument is between Hitman and Gogriz91...let's just end it ASAP.

 

[Hitman]

OK, I've got to try just one... Honestly now, how old are you?

I told you not to bother, didn't I?

I see you're a glutton for punishment

 

[Hitman]

Iowa, please don't feed the fire...this argument is between Hitman and Gogriz91...let's just end it ASAP.

Hey, don't worry... it's over.

I'm done with it. Let him get his last words in if it makes him happy.

 

[Thai]

Hey, don't worry... it's over.

Thank you. Happy New Year.

 

[blu4runner97122]

Thai -

Thanks for the heads-up about the crash test results. And based on that I think I have my full-fledged decision about what rig I'm gonna get -- and whatever it is its gonna be Toyota or Lexus... Whatever I wind up doing I'm gonna try my best to keep my current 4Runner for the hubby.. He's kinda fallen for it... however if we wind up winning the lottery I might buy 2 cars and him 2 cars - me - a fairly new Supra and a 4Runner or Sequoia - him - a Jetta and Cayenne... I like Toys and he loves his VW's... when he gets his license.. which will be soon....

 

[gogriz91]

Hey, don't worry... it's over.

I'm done with it. Let him get his last words in if it makes him happy.

Happy New Years Thai, my gift to you.

 

[EDGE]

V6 or V8 long as your happy with it, thats the point right:

 

[Kanab]

Happy New Years Thai, my gift to you.

It's cool that you live in Japan. Have you ever taken a trip to the factory where they build the 4runner? If you ever do tell us about it and please take some pic's and post them.

 

[PA 4Runner]

Techincally HP does come into play as it is a mathematical function of Torque and RPM:

(Torque x RPM) / 5,252 = Horsepower

No idea where you got the 60mph figure for when HP starts playing a role.

Horsepower plays more of a role at higher RPMS which is what I think maybe you meant??

Work is a measurement that describes the effect of a force applied on an object over some distance. If an object is moved one foot by applying a force of one pound, one foot-pound of work has been performed.

Torque is force applied over a distance (the moment-arm) so as to produce a rotary motion. A one pound force on a one foot moment-arm produces one foot-pound of torque. Note that dimensionally (ft-lbs), work and torque are equivalent.

Power measures the rate at which work (torque) is performed. Moving a one pound object over a one foot distance in one second requires one foot-pound per second of power. One horsepower is an estimate of the power a standard workhorse can exert: 550 ft.lbs/sec.

You can’t have horsepower without torque but you can have torque without horsepower.

Horsepower is simply a measure of how much rear wheel torque you can potentially gain from gearing. Horsepower describes how much engine rpm can be traded for tire torque.

Cars have finite rpm limits and rely upon gearing to provide torque multiplication so gearing plays a major role in aceleration. As far as maximum automobile acceleration is concerned, all that really matters is the maximum torque imparted to the ground by the tires (assuming adequate traction).

The torque tends to be greater in lower gears, when the car is trying to overcome inertia and speed up. Once at cruising speed, all the engine needs to do is keep the car moving.

& Happy New Year to all!

 

[Iowa4Runner]

Work is a measurement that describes the effect of a force applied on an object over some distance. If an object is moved one foot by applying a force of one pound, one foot-pound of work has been performed.

Torque is force applied over a distance (the moment-arm) so as to produce a rotary motion. A one pound force on a one foot moment-arm produces one foot-pound of torque. Note that dimensionally (ft-lbs), work and torque are equivalent.

Sorry to nerd out, but torque is simply a twisting force and does not imply a "distance" or movement of any kind. Don't confuse moment-arm length with the distance term used in the work equation. Ignore the similarity of the units, torque is ONLY a force. For work to be done, there MUST be motion. The same is not true for torque. You can have torque with no motion.

 

[Hitman]

Thanks for explaning that. The world is now a better place.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Sorry to nerd out, but torque is simply a twisting force and does not imply a "distance" or movement of any kind. Don't confuse moment-arm length with the distance term used in the work equation. Ignore the similarity of the units, torque is ONLY a force. For work to be done, there MUST be motion. The same is not true for torque. You can have torque with no motion.

OK, guys lets get completely nerdy here. HP refers to work rate i.e. work done over a period of TIME, so the more HP the higher the potential work rate of the engine. Torque is simply just force and peak torque is the maximum force availible by the engine. It really doesn't matter what units you choose it is the basic you need to look at.

Now with the last zillion posts it has not helped anybody to decide on getting either a V8 or V6.

To put things into perspective. The current V6 has more HP and torque than the LC80 with a 4.5 6, which was used on vehicle weighing almost 800lb more and with only a 4 speed auto.

Also the V8 engine capcity is only 17.5% more than the V6, not the usual 30% or more.

All that said, my recommendation to a buyer of a new 4R is this.

Choose you criteria for buying a vehicle, decide how much you want to spend and choose accordingly. The V8 wil give you more power, but cost you more to buy and run. It is up to you if you need the extra power and/or want to spend the extra money.

My reason for choosing the V8 was simple, I bought to vechile to slowly build it up for an offroad vechile. WHich implies it will be carrying lots more weight over time (600-800lb extra vechile weight excluding cargo and passengers), get larger wheels 33" in time, do lots of trip up into mountain areas i.e. long steep climbs at speed, lots of low end lugging and I wanted to do it with the most ease possible. At my time of choosing the V6 only had a 4 speed with 40lb/ft less which put it at a huge disadvantage. Today the difference is only 50lb/ft.

A simple test I have always done to assertain the true power of a vehicle, when going on a test drive, is to find a nice long steep on ramp. Then accelarate as hard as possible without exceeding 3500 RPM and see how you like it. For some a 1.6 4 banger is fine for other they require a 8.0 V10, your choice. But this simple test will give you the best indication how a vehicle will behave in real world conditions where you really need power. I.e. long uphills without hammering the engine, passing on the highway, etc. Unless you are a ricer who likes to operate at 8000 RPM, in which case the 4R is not for you anyhow. The biggest mistake I have seen people make at test drives is to hamer the car to the redline and thinking how well it performs, but are then unhappy when they drive it day to day. Honda VTEC engines are a very good example. SO with the V6/V8 debate, go do this and see if it makes difference to YOU (not me or anybody on this forum) and whether you want to spend the money on a difference like that.

 

[Hitman]

A simple test I have always done to assertain the true power of a vehicle, when going on a test drive, is to find a nice long steep on ramp. Then accelarate as hard as possible without exceeding 3500 RPM and see how you like it. For some a 1.6 4 banger is fine for other they require a 8.0 V10, your choice. But this simple test will give you the best indication how a vehicle will behave in real world conditions where you really need power. I.e. long uphills without hammering the engine, passing on the highway, etc. Unless you are a ricer who likes to operate at 8000 RPM, in which case the 4R is not for you anyhow. The biggest mistake I have seen people make at test drives is to hamer the car to the redline and thinking how well it performs, but are then unhappy when they drive it day to day. Honda VTEC engines are a very good example. SO with the V6/V8 debate, go do this and see if it makes difference to YOU (not me or anybody on this forum) and whether you want to spend the money on a difference like that.

That's an interesting thought, but how would a potential buyer use your test in the real world? Considering that new 4Runners are automatic trans only, it would be impossible to accelerate as hard as possible without exceeding 3500 RPM, unless you're talking about only 1 gear. The engine will definitely exceed 3500 RPM under full throttle before the transmission shifts.

Then again, what is wrong with running your engine in its upper rpm range? Especially an engine with variable valve timing, such as the Honda you mention, or even the V6 4Runner (or the new V8 for that matter)??

The problem with old tech V8 engines with all their low-RPM torque is that they usually run out of breath in the higher RPM range. Take the 5.0L Mustang engine for example. The 1987-1993 cars had great low end torque, however, they quickly ran out of steam before the redline (which was fairly low, BTW). If you wanted to get maximum acceleration out of these vehicles, you had to shift them before redline, which is just the opposite of most passenger vehicles on the roads today.

I have absolutely no problems with winding my 4Runner's engine out when I need some get-up-and-go. If I kept my RPM low, I would never even see the benefit of my variable valve timing....

 

[bulldog-yota]

That's an interesting thought, but how would a potential buyer use your test in the real world? Considering that new 4Runners are automatic trans only, it would be impossible to accelerate as hard as possible without exceeding 3500 RPM, unless you're talking about only 1 gear. The engine will definitely exceed 3500 RPM under full throttle before the transmission shifts.

Then again, what is wrong with running your engine in its upper rpm range? Especially an engine with variable valve timing, such as the Honda you mention, or even the V6 4Runner (or the new V8 for that matter)??

The problem with old tech V8 engines with all their low-RPM torque is that they usually run out of breath in the higher RPM range. Take the 5.0L Mustang engine for example. The 1987-1993 cars had great low end torque, however, they quickly ran out of steam before the redline (which was fairly low, BTW). If you wanted to get maximum acceleration out of these vehicles, you had to shift them before redline, which is just the opposite of most passenger vehicles on the roads today.

I have absolutely no problems with winding my 4Runner's engine out when I need some get-up-and-go. If I kept my RPM low, I would never even see the benefit of my variable valve timing....

I have done this with all the autos I have owned. You can do it two ways, first just go in auto and dont floor the gas which prevents the auto from kicking down. Second you just shift the auto yourself, easy to do on a 4R, again dont floor it as it will kick down. Any good auto shifts at higher RPM but still a ways away from the redline when you do this. You normally go through 2,3 and sometimes 4th on a 5 speed auto.

The point is not to determine max accelaration, but rather how it will behave under load in general. Doing long uphill climbs at the redline is no fun at all and in the higher gears it is more difficult to hit the sweet spot of an engine that is peaky. It is to determine how well it will behave in general driving when you need a bit of oomph. Nothing is more irritating that having a vehicle that continiously kicks down when you need to climb an incline at speed or pass another vechile on the freeway.

 

[gogriz91]

It's cool that you live in Japan. Have you ever taken a trip to the factory where they build the 4runner? If you ever do tell us about it and please take some pic's and post them.

From what I've been able to dig up they build 4Runners at 2 plants in Japan, one in Tahara and one at the Hino plant in Hamura which is about 15 minutes away from where I live. I've often seen car carriers rolling by with 4Runners and Tacos so I knew there was something major nearby but I didn't know it was the Hino plant until I looked it up on Google. I'll do some research and see what I find out. If it's anything good, I'll post a thread.

 

[Kanab]

From what I've been able to dig up they build 4Runners at 2 plants in Japan, one in Tahara and one at the Hino plant in Hamura which is about 15 minutes away from where I live. I've often seen car carriers rolling by with 4Runners and Tacos so I knew there was something major nearby but I didn't know it was the Hino plant until I looked it up on Google. I'll do some research and see what I find out. If it's anything good, I'll post a thread.

Mine was built in Tahara, I understand that Tahara is the highest quality plant that Toyota has and it is also the most automated. Post whatever you find. Pictures would be great