Removed Spidertrax Spacers=Interesting observations.

["Snowball"]

Hello All,

I just wanted to report a few interesting observations after I removed my wheel spacers...

Background:

I installed the 1.25" Spidertarx spacers about 15000km ago on my 2016 Trail.
I have Toytec 1 inch spacers up front and Firestone Airbags in the rear. Everything else is stock. I had the same setup on my 2012 Trail for +90000km.

I am chasing a suspension clunk while turning left and hitting uneven road/potholes etc. I am going to take my T4R into the dealer to have a look so I figured I would remove them to prevent the dealer from blaming the spacers. The rest of the mods....I guess I'll see.

Observations:

1. Steering input is MUCH lighter and appears to be faster. It's like the T4R is more nimble without them. Also, after making a 90 degree turn the steering wheel seems to center itself much quicker and easily.
Are the wheels pivoting over the center of the brake rotor (as designed)?

2. I measured the fender to ground height before and after I removed the spacers and the front end when up 1/2" on the driver's side and 3/8" on the passenger side. I did this right after I remounted the wheels. Didn't move the T4R between measurements.
Less leverage on the front suspension system?

3. Front end nose dive has been greatly reduced without the spacers.
Less leverage on the front suspension system?

4. My truck feels like is accelerates and brakes a little quicker.
Less reciprocating mass?

5. Clunk is still there but reduced.
The weight of the spacers/lugnuts and the extra leverage not impacting the suspension geometry with the same forces?

5. My T4R looks funny now! I really like the look of the truck with the spacers on.

Thought I would just share. Please feel free to make any other suggestions that might be affecting this.

Be good!

SnowBall

 

[schwein]

I Ran eBay 1.5" aluminum spacers on my 1996 Land Cruiser (they had good reviews but not name brand) torqued correctly and used Lock-tight on the bolts and I never had an issue, I put roughly 10k miles on it. Then i had 1.25 Spyderx spacers on my 2001 Land Cruiser for over 15k miles again torqued correctly with Lock-Tight and had zero noise, clunk or issues of any kind. I also have 1.25" Spacers on my 2003 4Runner (eBay spacers, good reviews no name brand) and it runs absolutely fine.

I feel like you may have another issue with your front end thats making your noise. we dont have any spacers on our 2014 Limited but I am considering buying a set. if you want to sell your spyderx's let me know!

Thanks
Ben

 

[chmura]

I never ran spacers and never will (safey concern of mine). Plus in parts of the world its illegal to run spacers on a vehicle, i.e. Australia.

I rather get aftermarket wheels then to run spacers.

Interesting observations thanks for sharing.

 

[oljedi11950]

Agree with [MENTION=79268]schwein[/MENTION] have had bora american made spacers on both my 4r over 50k on both NO problems ! Clunk noise has maybe a thousand posts about it either sway bar or links, uca . Never spacers

 

[Jetboy]

The steering is a common issue. You're moving the center of the wheel assembly off the center of the bearing and further from the steering axis. Basically it should make handling worse in just about every way. But it looks good!

The issues on the rear axle are pretty minimal.

I have 12" wide wheels on my FJ40 with 2" backspacing. That's roughly the equivalent of having about 4" wheel spacers. It drives like shit. Solid axles have far less effects than the same spacing on IFS. Even then I rely on an overpowering power steering system to keep things headed in the right direction.

The ideal solution is a +1 set of a-arms that moves the spindle outward up front. But they're a lot more than $50.

 

[Antman]

Hello All,

I just wanted to report a few interesting observations after I removed my wheel spacers...

Background:

I installed the 1.25" Spidertarx spacers about 15000km ago on my 2016 Trail.
I have Toytec 1 inch spacers up front and Firestone Airbags in the rear. Everything else is stock. I had the same setup on my 2012 Trail for +90000km.

I am chasing a suspension clunk while turning left and hitting uneven road/potholes etc. I am going to take my T4R into the dealer to have a look so I figured I would remove them to prevent the dealer from blaming the spacers. The rest of the mods....I guess I'll see.

Observations:

1. Steering input is MUCH lighter and appears to be faster. It's like the T4R is more nimble without them. Also, after making a 90 degree turn the steering wheel seems to center itself much quicker and easily.
Are the wheels pivoting over the center of the brake rotor (as designed)?

2. I measured the fender to ground height before and after I removed the spacers and the front end when up 1/2" on the driver's side and 3/8" on the passenger side. I did this right after I remounted the wheels. Didn't move the T4R between measurements.
Less leverage on the front suspension system?

3. Front end nose dive has been greatly reduced without the spacers.
Less leverage on the front suspension system?

4. My truck feels like is accelerates and brakes a little quicker.
Less reciprocating mass?

5. Clunk is still there but reduced.
The weight of the spacers/lugnuts and the extra leverage not impacting the suspension geometry with the same forces?

5. My T4R looks funny now! I really like the look of the truck with the spacers on.

Thought I would just share. Please feel free to make any other suggestions that might be affecting this.

Be good!

SnowBall

Well- let me weigh in here with my thoughts...


1- Yes, spacers change the feel a bit. I thought mine made it feel better. All perception.

2- The height only changed because you didn't let the suspension settle. Nothing to do with leverage.

3- Not possible- all perception.

4- Once again, it's in your head.

5- The weight is negligible in the big picture.

 

[cbuchanan87]

I took my wheel spacers off today. No more tire rubbing when I back up.

 

[bigears2303]

Haven't ran spacers hearing a clunk once and a while on full left turns or when I make a full left turn going up a hill type conversion from the street to my driveway. Don't think the spacers will do anything with the clunk. O yeah the dealer can't seem to resumulate it

 

[MNBighead]

Chk your lower rear shock bolt. I had a clunk and found it by doing the following:
Open one of the doors all the way.
Have someone grab top of door and rock the vehicle -aggressively
follow your ears to clunk sounds

Lead me directly to Driver side lower rear shock bolt / bushing interface which was loose and had "slop" loosened and retorqued to factory specs, clunk gone.

I struggled to find clunk for months until I tried this. I was convinced clunk was coming from up front.

 

[WakeDreams]

Well- let me weigh in here with my thoughts...


1- Yes, spacers change the feel a bit. I thought mine made it feel better. All perception.

2- The height only changed because you didn't let the suspension settle. Nothing to do with leverage.

3- Not possible- all perception.

4- Once again, it's in your head.

5- The weight is negligible in the big picture.

Agreed...the spacers change the feel a bit. Mine felt better as if gripping the road better due to a wider stance.

 

["Snowball"]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

A couple of comments...

I was not implying the spacers were causing the clunk and removing them would stop it. I just wanted to take them out of the equation with the dealer.

Thanks for "weighing in" Antman. ( I got that! LOL)

I did some digging into wheel weight affecting performance and it seems that there is a general rule of thumb that for every 1lb of wheel weight (unsprung and rotating) is equivalent to 10lbs of dead weight. So from shipping weight of the Spidertrax (6.5 lbs for 2) that would be the equivalent of 13 lbs = 130 lbs of dead weight in the vehicle. Definitely not substantial but this could be noticeable. Maybe I am just a sensitive guy.

Also, (from my drag racing years)... every 10 lb of dead weight is approximately equivalent to 1hp so did I just gain the FEELING of a 13 hp differential?

With respect to vehicle height, because the weight of the vehicle on the coil springs remains the same but the moment arm increase of the extra length the spacers provide would compress the spring more, no? There are angles involved, it's not just a straight vertical load.

1engineer where are you? LOL

Be good!

SnowBall

 

[jtc44]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.



A couple of comments...



I was not implying the spacers were causing the clunk and removing them would stop it. I just wanted to take them out of the equation with the dealer.



Thanks for "weighing in" Antman. ( I got that! LOL)



I did some digging into wheel weight affecting performance and it seems that there is a general rule of thumb that for every 1lb of wheel weight (unsprung and rotating) is equivalent to 10lbs of dead weight. So from shipping weight of the Spidertrax (6.5 lbs for 2) that would be the equivalent of 13 lbs = 130 lbs of dead weight in the vehicle. Definitely not substantial but this could be noticeable. Maybe I am just a sensitive guy.



Also, (from my drag racing years)... every 10 lb of dead weight is approximately equivalent to 1hp so did I just gain the FEELING of a 13 hp differential?



With respect to vehicle height, because the weight of the vehicle on the coil springs remains the same but the moment arm increase of the extra length the spacers provide would compress the spring more, no? There are angles involved, it's not just a straight vertical load.



1engineer where are you? LOL



Be good!



SnowBall

Yeah, where is 1Engineer when you need him? I'll leave the math to that guy, but I don't think yours stacks up in this scenario. While a change in rotating mass is something that can absolutely be felt in a drivers seat (or a bicycle saddle which is something I've got more personal experience with) WHERE you put that mass has an even bigger effect on change force.

Would a few extra pounds be noticeable towards the outside of the wheel or in the tire? Yes, probably.

Could that extra weight be felt if it were added closer to the center at the hub where the spacer bolts? As Antman put it, the words "negligible and perception" come to mind. But since perception is everything, I say leave those spacers off and enjoy the 13HP you just regained [emoji106]

 

[LandCruiser]

All the Spidertrax did was pull the tires away from the UCAs, where there was little to no clearance before. Truck drives and behaves exactly the same otherwise.

 

[Lindenwood]

Antman, could you explain how if the contact patch of the wheel is pushed 1.25" further from the control arm pivot, how the springs and dampers would not have less mechanical advantage against the ground? I am specifically referring to his perception of increased nose dive with the spacers. I would understand there would be no difference with a solid axle, but with the wheels each independently pivoting on control arms, pushing the Normal force further away from the pivot point and shocks / springs should reduce the effective force availble from the shocks / springs. No?

I am imagining an analogy of sitting in the upper "pushup" position with your hands shoulder width apart (stock), and then placing them 4 feet apart (spacers). Obviously, this is far more extreme than a few-percent increase in track width, but I am having a hard time understanding how it does not apply. Are you just saying the difference should not be large enough to notice, or am I completely understanding this wrong?

Thanks!

 

[1engineer]

Hello All,

I just wanted to report a few interesting observations after I removed my wheel spacers...

Background:

I installed the 1.25" Spidertarx spacers about 15000km ago on my 2016 Trail.
I have Toytec 1 inch spacers up front and Firestone Airbags in the rear. Everything else is stock. I had the same setup on my 2012 Trail for +90000km.

I am chasing a suspension clunk while turning left and hitting uneven road/potholes etc. I am going to take my T4R into the dealer to have a look so I figured I would remove them to prevent the dealer from blaming the spacers. The rest of the mods....I guess I'll see.

Observations:

1. Steering input is MUCH lighter and appears to be faster. It's like the T4R is more nimble without them. Also, after making a 90 degree turn the steering wheel seems to center itself much quicker and easily.
Are the wheels pivoting over the center of the brake rotor (as designed)?

2. I measured the fender to ground height before and after I removed the spacers and the front end when up 1/2" on the driver's side and 3/8" on the passenger side. I did this right after I remounted the wheels. Didn't move the T4R between measurements.
Less leverage on the front suspension system?

3. Front end nose dive has been greatly reduced without the spacers.
Less leverage on the front suspension system?

4. My truck feels like is accelerates and brakes a little quicker.
Less reciprocating mass?

5. Clunk is still there but reduced.
The weight of the spacers/lugnuts and the extra leverage not impacting the suspension geometry with the same forces?

5. My T4R looks funny now! I really like the look of the truck with the spacers on.

Thought I would just share. Please feel free to make any other suggestions that might be affecting this.

Be good!

SnowBall

Well- let me weigh in here with my thoughts...


1- Yes, spacers change the feel a bit. I thought mine made it feel better. All perception.

2- The height only changed because you didn't let the suspension settle. Nothing to do with leverage.

3- Not possible- all perception.

4- Once again, it's in your head.

5- The weight is negligible in the big picture.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

A couple of comments...

I was not implying the spacers were causing the clunk and removing them would stop it. I just wanted to take them out of the equation with the dealer.

Thanks for "weighing in" Antman. ( I got that! LOL)

I did some digging into wheel weight affecting performance and it seems that there is a general rule of thumb that for every 1lb of wheel weight (unsprung and rotating) is equivalent to 10lbs of dead weight. So from shipping weight of the Spidertrax (6.5 lbs for 2) that would be the equivalent of 13 lbs = 130 lbs of dead weight in the vehicle. Definitely not substantial but this could be noticeable. Maybe I am just a sensitive guy.

Also, (from my drag racing years)... every 10 lb of dead weight is approximately equivalent to 1hp so did I just gain the FEELING of a 13 hp differential?

With respect to vehicle height, because the weight of the vehicle on the coil springs remains the same but the moment arm increase of the extra length the spacers provide would compress the spring more, no? There are angles involved, it's not just a straight vertical load.

1engineer where are you? LOL

Be good!

SnowBall

I'm here lol. What you said above is all true, excepting some of your terminology. No leverage, it's moment and no reciprocating, it's rotating haha.

Here's the problem: Over the years, no matter what the actual TRUTH is, if it doesn't fit into the "perception" and above all (God forbid) how it frigging LOOKS, then the guy won't believe it or he will tolerate the degradation of performance, comfort, etc and run it anyway.

Look, wheel spacers have one, and only one practical use. That's to allow clearance from brake or suspension components. That's all. What everyone here uses them for is STANCE. Stance on a 4Runner equates to looks. That's all. What's bad about wheel spacers? Everything mentioned above and a few you left out.

Wheel spacers (or wheels with higher offset) will:
Reduce efficiency by adding unsprung mass, especially in city driving.
Reduce wheel bearing life by increasing the moment arm
Cause additional loading on the power steering pump
Cause additional loading on the rack and pinion
Changes suspension geometry by moving the centerline of wheel outboard
Causes additional loading on suspension components

And I could come up with more. But guess what.... wheel spacers give stance and stance looks cool, so damn the facts and give me spacers! THAT's the mentality of most enthusiasts. I posted the following in another thread but it fits here too:

"I would mod my 4Runner to improve performance except I cannot think of one single mod that will improve the stock configuration without sacrificing performance in other areas."

That is the truth. Mod for off road, on road performance suffers. Mod for on road, off road performance suffers. The worst mod though? Adding a ton of weight like skids, bumpers, rails, racks, DRAWERS, etc. If people really wanted to improve performance and reliability and efficiency, they would reduce weight, not add it!

All the above is why I haven't posted in this thread yet. Nobody wants to hear it. Now get off my lawn while I go put on my white New Balance 622's...

 

[RonJR]

I did some digging into wheel weight affecting performance and it seems that there is a general rule of thumb that for every 1lb of wheel weight (unsprung and rotating) is equivalent to 10lbs of dead weight. So from shipping weight of the Spidertrax (6.5 lbs for 2) that would be the equivalent of 13 lbs = 130 lbs of dead weight in the vehicle. Definitely not substantial but this could be noticeable. Maybe I am just a sensitive guy.

That's a simplistic and not too accurate rule of thumb. The math is pretty straight forward, and works out to 1 lb at the outside perimeter of a wheel is equal to 2lbs of cargo weight. (ratio of 2:1) If you add 1lb to all 4 wheels at the perimeter, it would result in 8lbs of effective dead weight.

However, if the weight is moved toward the center of the wheel, the effect is less.(The moment of inertia decreases as the weight moves inward). Wheel spacers are so close to the center that the effect is not much greater than 1:1, so your 2x6.5lb Spidertrax spacers maybe add the equivalent of 15lbs of cargo weight - certainly not 130 lbs.

Even for LT tires, the ratio is only about 1.6-1.7:1, because a good deal of the extra weight in an LT tire is in the sidewalls, which moves the effective radius of the weight closer to the center of the wheel.

 

[wfo9]

Stance on a 4Runner equates to looks. That's all.

I have to disagree with this particular statement. Stance/track width makes a big difference in stability (mainly off-road). A wide stance also greatly aids in naturally protecting the body while in off-road conditions (a really wide track will naturally push the body away from most obstacles). The body is the biggest thing going against a 4r offroad, so a widened track width is a huge boon for it.

The ideal way to gain track width it is to extend the axles/control arms (and adjust springs and dampening to compensate), but wheel spacers/wheel offset can still improve stability to a point where you will notice a small positive difference.

A wheel spacers is nothing more than a change in wheel offset. It does end up having an impact on suspension geometry and scrub/turning radius.

There are Pros and cons to them like everything else. I personally don't like running them... I much prefer getting a wheel with the correct offset/back spacing. I do run them on my solid axle trail rig though.