Road Bull's 2002 SR-5 timeline.

[A.Wilson013]

Well here is a start.

It is extremely complex. Inside, Outside, ID's, Wire Gauge, Material composition, standard or progressive. So many things make one coil very different than another.

The problem with internet message boards is that you have one group that is a repeater. They repost info they read somewhere, it may be correct or it may not be. Then you have the assumer. They think if it's a 3rd gen spring it the same as any other 3rd gen spring. This is not true.

Irony is that the TRD coils we use are actually 3 5/8" ID and progressive, dual rate. King, Icon, Radflo, who ever. Max out a 3rd gen application at 3" ID, strength coil, single rate.


The bottom line is that the guy with the Kings has something entirely different then the Boss Stuff. Your results will not be the same as the parts are not the same. For the assumer, they are vastly different.

From your links it seems pretty simple since we're considering two springs that are both linear 600lb springs. If rate=load/deflection it seems pretty clear... A 600lb linear spring, regardless of ID, OD, wire gauge, or material is a 600lb linear spring.

So while it's true that the King and Toytec coilovers are different, their springs seem to be essentially the same, aside from one fitting a 2.5" body, and the other fitting a 2" body.

Some amazing fire side reading.

Radflo Suspension Technology - Shock Absorber Selection Guide

Pretty lame reading material as it says literally nothing pertaining to my question other than, "A single 2.5" shock is comparable in performance to dual 2.0" shocks." as you've already repeated.

I'll bookmark those first pages you linked. Some good info, even if it doesn't really have anything to do with my question.

 

[sschaefer3]

So while it's true that the King and Toytec coilovers are different, their springs seem to be essentially the same, aside from one fitting a 2.5" body, and the other fitting a 2" body.

No, because they will handle "load" differently. The 3" coil at 600 will hold more load than a 2.5 coil at 600

The 600 is how much pressure on a shop press it takes to make the spring go down 1".

So if what you are saying is true, which it is not. That a 2" ID coil at 600 is the exact same as a 8" ID Coil at 600 both with 14 wraps.

It is easy to see when explained this way that an 8" ID coil with considerably more material will support more weight.

This company make some great coils and has a really good explanation of "load".

Suspension Spring Specialist, Inc.

The top of this page explains the weight the spring will support at a certain height and how much it will compress doing so.

Suspension Spring Specialist, Inc.

The coils ARB uses on the BP-51's you are over sized from stock as well. A stock coil rated the same as your ARB coils but at a smaller ID is not going to be the same. What you have is going to work considerably better as ARB designed it larger. Same concept I have used with an over sized coil which can support the weight easier and not sag.

There is a lot of information on the internet about this. One of the best articles was written by Jay Kopycinski, he is here in Phoenix and I know him. For the 4wheeler Network. Here is a link but this is a web version and 95% of the article is gone. Guess you need to find the print version unfortunately.

http://www.fourwheeler.com/features/1303or-kopycinskis-brain-whats-in-a-coil-spring/

This is actually more of that lost article.

Choosing Coils - Tech - Off-Road Magazine

 

[A.Wilson013]

No, because they will handle "load" differently. The 3" coil at 600 will hold more load than a 2.5 coil at 600

The 600 is how much pressure on a shop press it takes to make the spring go down 1".

So if what you are saying is true, which it is not. That a 2" ID coil at 600 is the exact same as a 8" ID Coil at 600 both with 14 wraps.

It is easy to see when explained this way that an 8" ID coil with considerably more material will support more weight.

This company make some great coils and has a really good explanation of "load".

Suspension Spring Specialist, Inc.

The top of this page explains the weight the spring will support at a certain height and how much it will compress doing so.

Suspension Spring Specialist, Inc.

The coils ARB uses on the BP-51's you are over sized from stock as well. A stock coil rated the same as your ARB coils but at a smaller ID is not going to be the same. What you have is going to work considerably better as ARB designed it larger. Same concept I have used with an over sized coil which can support the weight easier and not sag.

There is a lot of information on the internet about this. One of the best articles was written by Jay Kopycinski, he is here in Phoenix and I know him. For the 4wheeler Network. Here is a link but this is a web version and 95% of the article is gone. Guess you need to find the print version unfortunately.

Kopycinski's Brain - What?s In A Coil Spring? - Off-Road Magazine

This is actually more of that lost article.

Choosing Coils - Tech - Off-Road Magazine

Thanks for a those links- a lot more info than last nights

Gots me some readin' to do tomorrow

 

[SDmtnbkr]

.......

As far as spring rate go, it seems that most go with either a 600# or a 650#. Those that get the 700# do mention quite a stiff ride. I figure that if my 600# coils begin to let me down, I will just move up to 650s. At least a fair amount of people have Kings so you should have plenty of people to talk to. Then be specific when you order. I just figured that someone over there at King has a magic weight to spring, to valving calculator that knows all. I suppose that is putting a lot of faith into trusting that someone is bothering to do that at all. LOL. For all I know someone could have just used the 600s because they were within reach. There was no communication from King once ordered through TAP. TAP only knows that they put the order in but could not provide a lot of other info once ordered. TAP did a good job at trying to answer my questions to the best of their abilities.

Sorry, but there's no special calculator that they use. Unfortunately you likely got 600lbs springs because someone at TAP didn't relay your info correctly. I called King tech support 2 different times before ordering my suspension and got 2 different answers (600#, 650#), and when the shop went to place the order, they tech told them that I should probably be using 700# but I told my guy to order the 650's no matter what. I got the 650# recommendation from the "3rd Gen 4Runner Guru" when I called back the second time.
[MENTION=116387]Unner[/MENTION] Don't be afraid to give King a call, they're techs are awesome don't mind spending some time to help you get the correct setup. I don't attribute the 3 different answers to incompetence or apathy, in fact the guys are extremely passionate and knowledgeable, and love to talk tech shop. The bottom line is that we have older trucks that many of the techs might not have direct experience with, I mean they cover a crap ton of vehicles with their suspension.

The 3rd Gen guru (I wish I wrote down his name) told me that he used to race 2nd/3rd 4Runners in the desert in the 90's and 00's. This is what he told me... when Kind did their initial testing they set the the OEM kit for 600# coils with a non-armored truck (you gotta remember that most desert trucks aren't armored at all so they need that to be their base). Adding weight directly to the front of the truck makes a major difference with compression and rebound (obviously), but there are so many different combos out there they can't guarantee the "King feel" by just naming a different spring rate, you have to tune the coils to your truck specifically (again, obviously). I told him I had heavy sliders, roof rack and a 200lbs sleeping platform he still recommended 600# coils. With a plate bumper and winch he recommended 650# coils and with full skids he said 650 would still probably be ok, but some people might want 700# depending on bumper weight and winch rope.

I ended up going with 650# coils because I tool have an AOR bumper (much lighter that other bumpers), and plan on running a sythetic rope. I put them on last week without the bumper and winch installed yet, and it raised the truck damn near 3 inches from stock (King's factory setting). So I took almost all of the pre-load out to bring them down to about 2in since I'm on 265's for now. I was expecting them to be really stiff, but they are actually not that bad. I was blasting speed bumps in a closed parking lot last night at about 50-60mph and they were great. A little more bouncy at 20mph, but I assume that's cause the front is a little light until I add the armor. Hope this helps.... again, I'm just regurgitating what the info I got from King and my own experience.

 

[Road Bull]

Sorry, but there's no special calculator that they use. Unfortunately you likely got 600lbs springs because someone at TAP didn't relay your info correctly. I called King tech support 2 different times before ordering my suspension and got 2 different answers (600#, 650#), and when the shop went to place the order, they tech told them that I should probably be using 700# but I told my guy to order the 650's no matter what. I got the 650# recommendation from the "3rd Gen 4Runner Guru" when I called back the second time.

....

That is entirely possible. I understand that different reps might come to different conclusions and that they don't all know 3rd gens. That, and there are so many different combinations of added weight and whatnot, that it would be difficult for them to sound consistent. Although, it seems like it would be easy enough to make a guide. Say start at stock weight, up to "X" amount of extra weight, then the next weight coil for "X" amount of added weight, and so on just to ball park it. That would be fairly useful.

For me, the 600# work. I have a fair amount of weight, bumper, winch w/ steel cable, full Savage skids, sliders, but... I am no desert racer. I, for the most part like to crawl along. I think that I will order some Wheeler's bump stops for the front. If I need to, I will just bump up my springs to 650# and be good to go.

 

[SDmtnbkr]

For me, the 600# work. I have a fair amount of weight, bumper, winch w/ steel cable, full Savage skids, sliders, but... I am no desert racer. I, for the most part like to crawl along. I think that I will order some Wheeler's bump stops for the front. If I need to, I will just bump up my springs to 650# and be good to go.

For sure. I would imagine for your application softer would be better than stiffer. It sounds you're more worried about low impact stuff, and the softer springs are definitely going to articulate better. I couldn't get my front end to articulate at all with the 650's and no extra weight up front... at the factory preset setting. I have them turned out to about 1.5/2 rotations from the very top, so almost zero preload, and now they can flex more, but I has way less clearance this way. I can't wait to get the bumper and winch on.

 

[theesotericone]

For me, the 600# work. I have a fair amount of weight, bumper, winch w/ steel cable, full Savage skids, sliders, but... I am no desert racer.

I couldn't get my front end to articulate at all with the 650's and no extra weight up front... at the factory preset setting. I have them turned out to about 1.5/2 rotations from the very top, so almost zero preload, and now they can flex more, but I has way less clearance this way. I can't wait to get the bumper and winch on.

These two posts make me glad I did a ton of research. I ended up going with Eibach 620#'s. Road pretty damn well with no extra weight. Rides superb with my front bumper/winch and armor. There's no one size fits all solution to things like this but I'm really happy I went the route I did.

 

[BrianSD_42]

I think there may be more information in this thread about spring rates and King in coil choices than any other thread on this forum.

 

[Unner]

I think there may be more information in this thread about spring rates and King in coil choices than any other thread on this forum.

Yeah, I didn't mean to start all this. Lots of good info though! Sorry for the derail [MENTION=119532]Road Bull[/MENTION]. Back to your regularly scheduled build now.

 

[Road Bull]

Yeah, I didn't mean to start all this. Lots of good info though! Sorry for the derail [MENTION=119532]Road Bull[/MENTION]. Back to your regularly scheduled build now.

Hahahaha. No worries man. Spirited discussion is part of the forum. opcorn:

 

[Road Bull]

I think there may be more information in this thread about spring rates and King in coil choices than any other thread on this forum.

Yeah..

Part of me would like threads like "KING SUSPENSION CLUB", "TRD LIFT CLUB", "CBI CLUB"... or something of the sort. Not for exclusionary purposes, but I think it would kick ass to be able to find, let's say, AOR CLUB and there would be a wealth of information, pictures and discussion about AOR. On one level they are kind of cheesy, but it serves to centralize information on a given subject. You CAN find a few non formalized examples on here. There are pretty good threads on 4X Innovations rear swings, as well as Savage rear swings that owners posted pictures stories, and offered their opinions, but, it could be easier.

In other news, I took a trip to Whistler, BC. for the first time last weekend. HOLY COW that place is beautiful. I am not sure that I have driven such a beautiful stretch of highway, as the Sea to Sky highway, in order to get there. Beautiful rivers and waterways on the West side, and jaw dropping cliffs and rock faces on the East. I didn't take the 4runner this time, but I saw a fair amount of cool rigs there, some Fords, some Land Cruisers and so on. I stayed in a cool place in Whistler Village and had a great time, did the gondolas up to the Peak to Peak route. I would love to see that place in winter time. It must be beautiful. I need to start saving my pennies though because that place eats money fast. LOL.

It looked like there were some burly trails out there. Oh! And I picked up a brand new Scepter Jerry can while there at Princes Auto, because they are a pain, and expensive to get here in the states.

Here are some touristy pics and my jerry can. lol.:banana:

 

[Road Bull]

Took my visiting Mom on a sightseeing trip to Deception Pass state park for her birthday. My Mom flew out from Florida to get out of the way of hurricane Irma. It was a beautiful day. We stopped at Skagit River Brewery on the way up and had some delicious BBQ brisket sandwiches. It was one of those days where it still feels every bit of summer standing in the sun, but hints that winter is coming in the shade. I snapped a couple of pics of the 4runner looking good in front of some of Washington's better sides.

I did see another sweet built 3rd gens heading East on 20 as we pulled out of a lot heading West.

 

[infamousRNR]

enjoying your adventures!

 

[Road Bull]

enjoying your adventures!

Thanks man. You've got to get it in where you can fit it in. I have a lot of catching up to do in the adventure department.

I need to diagnose a new (sounds like) skid plate rattle that I picked up after my last off-road washboard bonanza. All mounting bolts are tight, I just think there is something shaking and making contact. I HATE chasing noises.

I need to replace a broken wheel stud and I should also try to address a few paint chips around the vehicle to cut body rust off at the pass.

I want to raise my front coilovers up about an inch or so, then I should be good.

 

[ToyotaBrah]

Love the progress so far man! I remember going to deception pass with my cousin who lives in WA. So gorgeous.

Whistler looks epic! I think I'll have to plan a trip there next time I'm in WA.

 

[trailbikerider]

Ryder,

How happy are you with your 4xI rear bumper? As much as I'd love to have matching front and rear bumpers, the RPMFAB rear bumper is $1400, and theirs is setup for a dual swingout, so getting just the spare tire swingout like I want would look goofy.

 

[Road Bull]

Love the progress so far man! I remember going to deception pass with my cousin who lives in WA. So gorgeous.

Whistler looks epic! I think I'll have to plan a trip there next time I'm in WA.

Thank you for the kind words. And if you are planning on getting close to Whistler, GO! That place was very cool. I consider myself lucky to live in the PNW. I moved from Florida back in 2001, and other than missing family that still lives in Florida, I have a hard time imagining living somewhere else. But the drive out to Whistler is very beautiful.

Ryder,

How happy are you with your 4xI rear bumper? As much as I'd love to have matching front and rear bumpers, the RPMFAB rear bumper is $1400, and theirs is setup for a dual swingout, so getting just the spare tire swingout like I want would look goofy.

Sup Blake,

I really like the design of the 4X Innovations bumper. Their customer service and reputation is based on tons of happy customers. Adam and Ben have been great to work with and I would be happy to give them my business again. They went above and beyond to address any and all of my concerns.

The only other rear bumper that I was seriously considering was the Savage swing out. The Savage is cool because it has a modular design so you can add as much or as little as you desire. That and it offers slightly better departure angles if that is a major concern for you. It also seems a little bit more expensive for the things I wanted.

For me, a few things tipped the scales in favor of the 4X Innovations bumper. I liked the overall package, it was visually impressive, (I had a chance to go check out [MENTION=124101]Chim[/MENTION] 's bumper in person a few months prior, and was impressed.

I prefer the solid feeling latch design that the bumper offers. I am sure other companies know what they are doing using the other style latch, but I just like the functionality of having the handle where it is rather than in some other awkward location.

You can decide how much or how little add ons you wish to order, so bare bones, (just rear tire), or full expo build.

Also, I like where the tire is positioned. For me, it is high enough but doesn't block the whole rear window.

Check out these threads if you have not had a chance yet.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/177831-4x-innovations-rear-bumper-swing-out-pics-6.html

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...4xinnovations-rear-bumper-tire-carrier-8.html

I can't speak for other bumpers, but I am happy with my 4X Innovations.

If you want to check out the Savage bumper, [MENTION=143526]theesotericone[/MENTION] has a SWEET one. His has all the bells and whistles.

His>> http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/243239-rear-tire-swing-regrets-3.html#post2786301

And you may already know, but make sure before putting ANY new bumper on, you first swap out your rear body mounts for solid body mounts to avoid bumper flexing into the body caused by rear frame flex. These firm all that up and you should be fine. >> Rear 4Runner Polyurethane Body Mounts (Pair) - $75.00 : Sonoran Steel, Sonoran Steel Custom Metal Fabrication L.L.C. Custom Toyota Truck Parts

 

[trailbikerider]

I like the placement of the rear tire as well, that's one of the reasons it looks appealing. That's all good information though! When I'm ready one of these will be at the top of my list.

 

[Road Bull]

Temporary fold-down table delete.

So my 4X Innovations fold down table has been clanging back and forth due to securing latches being bent either in shipping or at the powder coater. I ordered some extra latches from Adam to address the issue. They have been very cool to deal with. Adam and Ben have been super helpful with all my questions.

So swapping hardware out is pretty straightforward except that the bonehead powder coater powder coated everything. The intake person who took my bumper said that they would remove all the hardware and put it in a box for me to reassemble when I picked up the bumper. No problem there... sounds pretty straightforward. However, when I picked up the bumper, well beyond their target date, it completely different and much younger person brought my bumper out on a pallet. I noticed that they just powder-coated everything and did not remove any hardware. So this meant that nothing behind the hinges or latches was actually powder coated. I knew this would create rust issues and it would need to be addressed at some point. I should have just had them fix it then... Anyway..

Due to all the screws and bolts being powder coated, they did not want to break free and began to strip. So I decided to pick up a screw extraction kit and began to pickaway where the head of the screw meets the surface with a pick tool. I only needed the extraction device for one of the screws, but it came in handy.

I was working in the dark and found out there was a chance of rain tonight. As I can't put my vehicle in the garage I wanted to try to prime and paint the section that was bare metal and rusting. I managed to get it sanded down and remove the rust from the surface. I primed it with some self etching primer and then followed it up with some semi-gloss black. I also threw in some stainless steel screws to keep water from getting into the swing arm body.

This will buy me some time to better address the issue on some weekend with compliant weather. I think I will just do my own painting from here on out. The powder coater did offer to redo the bumper. I thought about pulling just the swingarm and having him redo that portion, but I would probably need new bearing seals once I put it back together and it just seemed like a giant pain in the ass I did not want to deal with.

 

[Road Bull]

ARB Twin Compressor mounted in the cargo cubby hole.

I had been meaning to do this for a while. I have had a twin ARB compressor sitting around waiting for me to mount it up. Well, today's the day.

I will throw a bunch of pics in here to assist others contemplating doing something similar.

Why mount in cargo area?

This compressor can be mounted in the engine bay, (passenger side). But even then, it's a tight fit, you will need to move items, (year specific). Other potentiall drawbacks to engine bay mounting are hotter, dirtier air, potential to get wet and suck in water. These units have a fairly good reputation for being able to handle some abuse.

Drawbacks to mounting in rear cargo: lose some potential rear cargo space. Air compressor is louder when mounted in side. Having to run positive and negative power cables as well as control cables from the back to the front of the vehicle. Routing the cables is not as fun as it might sound. You will need to pick up some supplies.

The manual calls for 8 gauge power cables. We went with 6 gauge for power cables, (25 feet each) and I believe 18 gauge for the 4 different primary control wires, (40 foot rolls). Add some butt connectors, battery cable lugs and heat shrink. All told about $130 extra to have enough cable to mount in the rear.