Stealership Scamming in a Bad Economy

[TheArkMaster]

As a tech for a living and having worked in both the dealer and independent repair shop environments I've always considered my repairs and diagnostic work to be directly related to my name and reputation.

My adviser always asks the customer the following as an offer.:
1: Do you want to come see what the technician is talking about?
2: Do you want to speak with/meet the technician?
3: Do you want your old parts back?

And if someone is still skeptical I'll welcome them to get a second opinion elsewhere.

Honestly finding the right shop/dealer/technician is about the relationship. When you have a good experience get his name/card, meet him even, and request him by name from then on. If he moves to another local shop follow with your business.

The technician that sees your vehicle makes more difference than the shop he/she works at. There are plenty of bad techs in the dealer world as there are in the independent. The same goes for the good ones.

1000% percent agreed. I followed my mechanic from a dealership, to a shop, now he works for a new shop, but only he touches my car. Nobody else. I'm an idiot when it comes to cars and I know he is very honest with me. The other day he spent an hour with me diagnosing some stupid a$$ issue about a leak in my engine bay (my coolant level was way to high from previous owner), he than helped me remove some of it to get it to an appropriate level. Just over an hour of his time helping me, and he didn't charge me a dime. Even when I offer to pay him for his time. He's helped me off the clock to. Find a good, honest mechanic, and follow him to hell.

 

[LittleCaesar]

Props to Kyle and people like him for keeping integrity in the auto repair business. Just like any other business, a healthy rapport and honesty with the customer from day one should give root to establishing and keeping customers coming back no matter what they are driving.

When friends and family members tell me that their dealership now won't allow them to talk to the technician nor see their auto being worked on/repaired due to some legalease jargon, I tell them to find another shop/garage.

 

[the great him]

the problem is most managers -like 02se stated are all about bottom line profits at the end of the day. and losing one customer who knows his vehicle isnot going to hurt them compared to the 10 others who do, and no losing "you" only opens up more time and room for another one of the 10 who dont know squat about cars, and car care ect.
when i started out at the dealer i worked at, the GM was a great guy who not only took care of his employees but also his customers(they are after all what pays the bills). if there was an issue it was delt with. but the owner of the dealer was looking to sell and retire... -he had 5 of 6 other dealerships around the area all of them high end. anyhow a major dealer cam in -lithia and bought us out.

long story shot the new owner(and unknowingly the new GM witch btw no mention was made of that change) had a group meeting with all the employees and gave some political BS speach about how things would not change, and only improve and continue to grow -yeah it was a lie, i left just before the change as i knew it was not gonna be smooth and i was not gonna fit in -im not into asskissing and swallowing ect, so i bounced and never regretted it. that dealer tanked and went from a huge profit maker to barely breaking even. a lot of their loyal customer base left in search of new shops, techs either quit or were fired, and new techs hired who they could pay less and treat like garbage. moral went down and now every time i stop buy the few friends i have remaining hate their jobs. i just laugh to myself as i walk out to my 4runner parked in the front parking lot amongst $100k+ cars and think to myself i won!

having worked at a dealer, unless you knew the right service adviser or tech or were friends with the GM going to the service dept manager or GM would get you another line or two of nothing but greatly refined BS that was all a front. they wouldnt care, as 95% of the time it earned them business. the dealer i worked at made is living on service. we hands down did more service than all the other dealers in the state combined, and did better service. but our sales sucked, the other dealer across town would sell quarterly what would almost take us a year to sell -probably a 1/3 -2/3 deal.

that being said we did not do the scam up-sale on needless repairs or maint. but it still did happen from time to time. -it happens everywhere sadly. but it was our policy that parts would not be thrown away until the day after the vehicle has left the shop. we would give advice and recommendations and sell the preventive maintenance side of things as cheaper than reactive or emergency maintenance. that all changed under the new management and ownership

 

[KidVermicious]

1000% percent agreed. I followed my mechanic from a dealership, to a shop, now he works for a new shop, but only he touches my car. Nobody else. I'm an idiot when it comes to cars and I know he is very honest with me. The other day he spent an hour with me diagnosing some stupid a$$ issue about a leak in my engine bay (my coolant level was way to high from previous owner), he than helped me remove some of it to get it to an appropriate level. Just over an hour of his time helping me, and he didn't charge me a dime. Even when I offer to pay him for his time. He's helped me off the clock to. Find a good, honest mechanic, and follow him to hell.

What shop is this? I like knowing which shops in town are honest.

 

[shadow247]

just an fyi, if they were doing an alignment, they had it up in the air. Most valve cover gasket leaks are really only visible from the underside.

Really? Because when I have my Runner up in the air I'd have to look REAAALLY hard to see my valve covers. If I open the hood, they are right there in your face.

 

[BlackCat914]

Really? Because when I have my Runner up in the air I'd have to look REAAALLY hard to see my valve covers. If I open the hood, they are right there in your face.

yes really, considering they leak down the back side of the motor generally. I mean yes, you can see your valve covers when the hood is open, I get that. As a matter of fact, I replaced my valve cover gaskets last year on my truck, and I had it up in the air at work and was changing the oil, and then found they were leaking again. Had I not had it up in the air, I never would've been able to see the back sides where they were leaking from.

edit: I should say up in the air with the skid shields off, which I assumed they had off when doing an alignment.

 

[BamaDrewski]

I don't want to throw these folks under the bus as I have had many more positive experiences with them than bad. A lot of the comments on here highlight some of the good experiences with dealers/service centers. They are not all bad but as I mentioned, they got rid of a very good service manager just recently and this is a first for me at this dealer. Someone also made a good point that perhaps they looked at the mileage and decided to recommend the services for that many miles. I have no idea of knowing. The point in bringing this whole situation up is to encourage everyone to make sure the mechanic/service writer can back up what they claim is an issue. Normally, at this dealer, when they found a "potential" issue, they would call me to the mechanics floor and show it to me. This is the first time they finished the requested work, pulled the truck out, parked it and THEN informed me of the potential issues. I think I am going to send an email to Manager about what happened and let him know I felt it was shady. Let's see what happens then.

 

[the great him]

OP i like the fact that you are willing to give them "the benefit of the doubt", this world honestly needs more of this. i wish you the best of luck with this and let us know how things turn out for you...

 

[EatonKyleH]

Secondly, for the guys that have worked at shops before, should't a customer that gets treated like Bama escalate up the dealer's management chain right then and there (not sure where the "advisor" is in the management chain, but I am thinking you should speak to whoever is the advisor's boss)? It seems to me that the biggest impact would be right there in the moment, to a manager that might actually have some influence in the "up-sell or lose your job" policy that might be in place, letting them know directly that the policy is losing them a customer (though obviously do it calmly, courteously, and firmly). If said manager doesn't have such a policy in place, then they should be made directly aware of their tech's behavior, and be allowed to deal with it as they see fit.

With my current employer the tech would have been pulled up to the front to explain in front of the customer and the rest of the advisers in the office. If it was deemed or suspected that there he was trying to rip off the customer he would be reprimanded or fired and the customer would typically be refunded. It almost never happens and the only times I've seen it was with new hires that were used to the sell-or-die mentality. It's all about the shop and people in it though. I've seen way extremes on both ends and there is definitely no universal structure.

Props to Kyle and people like him for keeping integrity in the auto repair business. Just like any other business, a healthy rapport and honesty with the customer from day one should give root to establishing and keeping customers coming back no matter what they are driving.

When friends and family members tell me that their dealership now won't allow them to talk to the technician nor see their auto being worked on/repaired due to some legalease jargon, I tell them to find another shop/garage.

Thank you,
There are some issues occasionally with a shops insurance provider that will prevent them from allowing customers in certain areas but most shops WAAYYY over play that. For example I can't allow customers in the dyno room with me when I'm driving their car at 60 mph on the treadmill of death. But they can watch through a window. But ya the whole "everything here happens behind closed doors" business plan is total garbage.

Just reading your posts on here, it's obvious to me that you are honest in your dealings.

Twenty plus years ago as a Master Tech, I became disgusted with the lack of ethics, and got out of consumer auto repair business. The places I had worked (dealer and private shops) had the old up-sell routine down pat. If you didn't play ball with their 'scam every customer that comes through the door' philosophy, you quickly found yourself looking for another job.

At some point in that situation you need to ask yourself if your own integrity and character means anything.

I decided that it did, and got out of the biz to pursue starting my own business. The best and hardest decision I ever made.

Not too long after that, State Consumer Protection agencies really began cracking down on dishonest repair shops.

I had hoped the rampant up-selling of unnecessary repairs, had ended years ago. Apparently it still happens to some extent.

I sincerely appreciate it, you have a lot of years on me!
Ya it still happens and many shops still have the "take them for all their worth" mentality. I'm glad it's worked out for you and I honestly will probably retire with my current shop largely because of their business morality (I've been here 7 years and still love it. It's been here 65 years)

I, like most others in this business am payed entirely on commission and in my experience anytime you pay someone entirely on commission you will see the price of their integrity.

It is however much easier when you have more work than you can even handle because of that reputation. I have a hard time seeing some other guys that are great techs with little work coming it struggling to get by though.

 

[TheArkMaster]

What shop is this? I like knowing which shops in town are honest.

It's down in Lindon PG area by my house. The shop is called the torque shop. The guys name is Mike McConkey but all the guys there are honest and awesome.

 

[02SE]

I sincerely appreciate it, you have a lot of years on me!
Ya it still happens and many shops still have the "take them for all their worth" mentality. I'm glad it's worked out for you and I honestly will probably retire with my current shop largely because of their business morality (I've been here 7 years and still love it. It's been here 65 years)

I, like most others in this business am payed entirely on commission and in my experience anytime you pay someone entirely on commission you will see the price of their integrity.

It is however much easier when you have more work than you can even handle because of that reputation. I have a hard time seeing some other guys that are great techs with little work coming it struggling to get by though.

I'm glad to hear you're in a situation where you are rewarded for an honest work ethic.



I'm not that old, mid 40's.

I started on that path early learning from a Mechanic neighbor, from about the age of 11. Then later with auto shop, and vocational auto shop classes in High School. Further schooling and experience in auto mechanics after High School. I got out of the biz in my mid 20's.

 

[BamaDrewski]

UPDATE: Sent an email to the Manager at the dealership. He responded with an apology and said he looked into the "recommendations" the technician made. The technician only consulted the recommended scheduled maintenance documentation and based his "suggestions" from that. He did not actually inspect the valve cover gaskets and fluids. The manager said they valued my business and if I would come by and see him, he will give me coupons for three "free oil and filter changes." Thought that was pretty cool and I am satified that they seem to care.

 

[the great him]

UPDATE: Sent an email to the Manager at the dealership. He responded with an apology and said he looked into the "recommendations" the technician made. The technician only consulted the recommended scheduled maintenance documentation and based his "suggestions" from that. He did not actually inspect the valve cover gaskets and fluids. The manager said they valued my business and if I would come by and see him, he will give me coupons for three "free oil and filter changes." Thought that was pretty cool and I am satified that they seem to care.

and that seams fair. the tech was lazy, but yet honest at the same time. when confronted he admitted to not actually inspecting the vehicle further(as you already knew), and simply made a suggestion on typical service for a vehicle of that age/mileage -thats not uncommon, its not being a good tech, or doing things correctly, but i can understand a tech doing that. there could be several reasons for it, techs are flat rate, so he could be behind on work and trying to maximize his time while attempting to generate more work, but not being dishonest about it at the same time, the tech could of just been slammed that day and was trying to work as fast as possible. again i dont think any malicious intent was there on the techs part.

i think more of the issue here is on the service manager. i think his inteintions where a bit more shady, after all he stated

He said the “valve cover gaskets are leaking” and they can replace them for $400+. Then he said I needed to change the front and rear differential fluids and the transfer case fluid....

he was doing more than relaying the info the tech stated, he was adding his own thoughts to the techs recommendations, he was stating these were not merely potential issues, but that they were indeed current issues.

“Maybe we mixed up your vehicle with another one that was being serviced.” I just smiled and said “Yeah, right buddy. I know this vehicle like the back of my hand and I understand you trying to get business but don’t try that SH!T on me again.”

to me this shows he knew he had just be caught in a lie, and was trying to save face...

it was nice that the GM took the time to check into things, although the more i think about this it gives me feelings of the GM knows this is a revenue producing way of business... and it seams that his email back to you is putting the blame on the tech, and i dont think that is were the blame should land, i think the service manager is the one who should take the heat for this. personally if i was you when i go in to collect my free oil and filter coupons id tell the GM this, and see how he reacts.

i understand business' and companies are all about profit and if they dont make one then they are not doing something right, but just as big and important part of a business or company is to porived a product or service to its customers, and without that they have no means of making any profit or revenue. customer service has to be a shared top priority along with profit. if you have no customer service, you will soon have no profit. they go hand and hand. i think too many companies forget this and think that customers are expendable(and to some extent they are, but its because either the customer has no backbone or no clue, and this is one on many major problems in the country today...). but need to remind companies we the customer are their life line

 

[LINY4Runner]

It's easy to blame the service advisers and managers for things like this. Usually they'll sell you on smaller items that may not need to be done rather than larger items.

What this appears to be is that a lazy technician made recommendations based on age or mileage of the vehicle.. A lot of techs do this in every automotive field that I've worked in. From dealerships, privates, and franchises.

Yes the managers and advisers make commission off of sales but the techs get paid off the hours sold as well. We've got a new system in place the makes the techs actually inspect the vehicles that come in whether it be an oil change or any other kind of service.

When it comes to things like this it frustrates me being because I myself had been an adviser when a lazy A$$ tech made assumptions of service because the age/mileage of a vehicle. Some even actually spend their time writing up detailed explanations of phantom issue's. For as long as it takes them to write this crap up they could have easily popped the hood and wrote things up as they were looking or not as it may have been recently done.

As an adviser this makes me look like an A$$ trying to sell you something you don't need that I even thought you needed and when a CSI survey comes in I get burned because of a tech not doing his job. I either A) take a pay cut B) get wrote up C) could cost me my job.

So please keep in mind that almost most of the time it's not the advisers fault (although sometimes it can be) ask them to walk out with you to the vehicle like the OP. If they try to rectify the situation please don't think it's them taking advantage of you.

I'd ask them to also pull the tech out and let him try to find the problems HE noted. You'll know by then who's trying to screw you.

I bet that adviser/manager felt like crap and got onto his tech for making him look like a thief.


There are some good advisers out there that have been burnt this way on many occasions.

^Yes.

Another "stealership" advisor chiming in.

Yes, the bulk of MY pay is commission. That doesn't mean everyone's is. I know advisors that are high salary/low commission.
I can't speak for every dealer, as I've seen some shady guys working at good dealerships, but most of the name "stealership" comes from the high prices, rather than the upselling of un-needed items. High prices (I love the "I can get an oil change at Jiffy Lube for $15 why is yours $40") are largely due to two things; OEM Parts (which, by the way have a very small markup, about 30-35%) and the fact that our techs have more school, which results in more pay, which results in higher labor prices.
Now, we all know VC gaskets on our trucks is severely common. We also know that you can see the residue from the leak from underneath the truck. Could it be possible that you had residue left from before you did the gaskets? I ask this because I had recently done the VC gasket on my Camry when I had it on the lift and a tech came over and told me it was leaking. Tough to tell the difference.

I'm not defending your tech or service manager, I'm defending my position as a Toyota Service Advisor.

More than likely, as stated earlier, you had caught the advisor or manager off guard when pointing this stuff out. 90% of the things I sell are things I've never seen. Sometimes the guys will bring me out (if it's something weird) but for the most part I'll sell whatever the techs list. If it's a big list, I'll break it down in stages for the customer, advise them (considering I'm an advisor) of what's NEEDED NOW and what can wait till next service and what they'll be looking at in the near future.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt you're better off at a dealership than an outside shop. Even if it costs more.

 

[BamaDrewski]

You make some really good points. The fact the GM leaned on the tech is telling. I think you are also right that HE KNOWS they are doing this to generate extra revenue. He has probably calculated the odds that 9 times out of 10, they can get away with this. People today put so much faith in their service providers - regardless of what kind of service it might be. Few people/consumers ask hard questions and probe deeper and few people know their rigs like we do on this forum. When a knowledgeable consumer comes into a place of business, I am sure it is often difficult for the service provider to recognize the consumer is savvy and knows what they are talking about. So often, the customer is the sheep and the service provider is the wolf. Without a doubt, I am going to take them up on the three free oil and filter changes. I am also going to try and make them understand I am an "intelligent consumer." I do 95% of my own work on my truck but sometimes, if it is too hairy (or I don't have the right tools) I will take it to the dealer for the work and MORE IMPORTANTLY, the warranty they provide on their work.

I appreciate your insight and you are right on target. I wish the elected folks in our Nation's Capitol understood WE (the citizen) is the customer and THEY are the servant. Maybe one day.......

 

[Justin727]

You make some really good points. The fact the GM leaned on the tech is telling. I think you are also right that HE KNOWS they are doing this to generate extra revenue. He has probably calculated the odds that 9 times out of 10, they can get away with this. People today put so much faith in their service providers - regardless of what kind of service it might be. Few people/consumers ask hard questions and probe deeper and few people know their rigs like we do on this forum. When a knowledgeable consumer comes into a place of business, I am sure it is often difficult for the service provider to recognize the consumer is savvy and knows what they are talking about. So often, the customer is the sheep and the service provider is the wolf. Without a doubt, I am going to take them up on the three free oil and filter changes. I am also going to try and make them understand I am an "intelligent consumer." I do 95% of my own work on my truck but sometimes, if it is too hairy (or I don't have the right tools) I will take it to the dealer for the work and MORE IMPORTANTLY, the warranty they provide on their work.

I appreciate your insight and you are right on target. I wish the elected folks in our Nation's Capitol understood WE (the citizen) is the customer and THEY are the servant. Maybe one day.......

Funny thing is most GM's know nothing about the fixed ops side of the dealership. They know just enough to understand some of the #'s they're looking at like budgets etc.

But in all my years working in dealerships I've never heard of a GM passing down the line to Service managers, techs, and advisers to make people spend more money.

They're usually looking for more Volume to make the money then sucking customers dry.

But it is nice to see the dealership GM replying to you and attempting to restore good faith as a customer towards you.


Liny I'm a Former "stealership" adviser! Now I'm just a lonely parts manager dealing more with wholesale, front counter, back counter, and internet sales then anything. Was wanting to take over a Toyota place but still waiting for a position to open. For now I'm stuck with nissan