RL Lemke
New member
Here is a new white paper Amsoil has prepared. This is a 1 Meg PDF.
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf
One thing that I have noticed with Mobil 1 and other synthetics is that they do not "sludge-up" like dino oil. My brother and I both had T-Birds with the identical engine - a 3.8L V6. He used regular dino oil and changed it every 3,000 miles. I used Mobil 1 and changed it every 5,000 miles. After about 30,000 miles or so, you could see some sludge on the inside portion of his oil cap. On the underside of my oil cap, it was clean and almost looked brand new.
As such, I would imagine that my brother's engine probably had some sludge build-up somewhere else in the engine. I would similarly imagine that sludge build-up decreases an engine life. Therefore, I would imagine that synthetic oils lead to longer engine life. How much longer? Heck, I don't know.
As such, I would imagine that my brother's engine probably had some sludge build-up somewhere else in the engine. I would similarly imagine that sludge build-up decreases an engine life. Therefore, I would imagine that synthetic oils lead to longer engine life. How much longer? Heck, I don't know.
cpayne5
New member
07Runner, you sure do like trying to pick fights, don't you? Everytime you post a new topic, it turns into a flame fest. Ever wonder why?
As for the topic at hand, and for the other couple times you've asked similar questions, by either using dino or synthetic, your 4Runner (or in your case, future 4Runner) will be a very reliable vehicle if you are mindful of the required maintenance. That's really the name of the game. You can go ahead and buy $8/qt Amsoil or you can buy $1.50 QS. Either way, with appropriate OCIs, the vehicle should go for atleast 200k.
I use synthetic (Amsoil Series 2000 0w-30 for anyone interested) and couldn't really care less about what anybody thinks of my choice nor do I really care what you decide to use. The only thing we (and no one else) can control is what we put in our vehicles.
Now, I guess this post doesn't really lay to rest your question, but did you really think that the information you were after really exists in such a concise, laid out format? The question was loaded form the beginning and you knew it.
As for the topic at hand, and for the other couple times you've asked similar questions, by either using dino or synthetic, your 4Runner (or in your case, future 4Runner) will be a very reliable vehicle if you are mindful of the required maintenance. That's really the name of the game. You can go ahead and buy $8/qt Amsoil or you can buy $1.50 QS. Either way, with appropriate OCIs, the vehicle should go for atleast 200k.
I use synthetic (Amsoil Series 2000 0w-30 for anyone interested) and couldn't really care less about what anybody thinks of my choice nor do I really care what you decide to use. The only thing we (and no one else) can control is what we put in our vehicles.
Now, I guess this post doesn't really lay to rest your question, but did you really think that the information you were after really exists in such a concise, laid out format? The question was loaded form the beginning and you knew it.
Jay
New member
cpayne5 said:
AMEN!! We are here just to say what WE have used, and our own personal results with it. I put on 130K miles on my Acura in just 4 years of owning, i bought it new, and it still ran like the day i got it from the showroom floor. This was in an RSX Type-S, it wasnt a sports car, but it had enough power to blow the doors off Mustang GT's with its little dinky 2.0 ltr motor. Since this was a Honda vehicle with VTEC, it ate up a lot of oil, VTEC motors tend to do this when you keep your foot on the gas and drive it hard. Never once did the oil sludge up, break down, or did anything bad to the motor. But hey, this is just my personal opinon on the oils i use.
Whoknows
Member
Oil
My 2 cents -- doesn't sound like it would be worth it for you 07. You plan on changing @ 5K no matter. Syn costs more. Your "warm fuzzy" is on saving money. NO ONE can PROVE that syn WILL make your engine last longer. What can be proved, is that it is superior in terms of the characteristics above.
I think we want as much to be "right" as we do just make a choice for ourselves based on our own idiosyncrasies and the information that is available. But, as with most things, there is no absolute right answer here. Good luck with whatever you choose and may we all get warm fuzzies in our own way.
My 2 cents -- doesn't sound like it would be worth it for you 07. You plan on changing @ 5K no matter. Syn costs more. Your "warm fuzzy" is on saving money. NO ONE can PROVE that syn WILL make your engine last longer. What can be proved, is that it is superior in terms of the characteristics above.
I think we want as much to be "right" as we do just make a choice for ourselves based on our own idiosyncrasies and the information that is available. But, as with most things, there is no absolute right answer here. Good luck with whatever you choose and may we all get warm fuzzies in our own way.
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07runner
Guest
sharp4runr said:
Spoken like a true gentlemen:
Im sorry if some of you people think I am trying to start fights by asking such a complicated but important question. Many responces to this thread showed intelligence and true thought.
The two brothers with the same car in the past thread with sludge under the cap the other without because one used synthetic the other not. Really is meaningless now because of the new API SM rating. This oil was improved in several ways, I don't know them all but one was a improvement in prevention of sludge.
Regular oil and sythetic oil seem to be getting better all the time. Perhaps regular oil is so good now, that synthetic is on par with it as long as you change the oil when you should. Or maybe it is not. Considering the considerable difference in price, don't you want to know the truth?
IF my engine really will last longer and run better it is worth every penny. But will it? This is what I really want to know. I am sure all of you do as well. Don't you think it is strange not to see any tests to prove your engine will last longer with synthetic?
Mobil really has nothing much to say about this, but dam my mobil stock is doing great. Must be the high cost of mobil 1. If I lashed out at a thread or two it was because the responce was, well not too bright, but I am sure the person meant well. Must of been those dam bull balls. Im sorry if you think I enjoy or want to start fights, it is simply not true.
JB.
New member
07runner said:
In 1996, Consumer Reports did an extensive test of motor oils. They put identical rebuilt engines in New York taxis and ran 'em for 60k miles with 6k oil change intervals. Two synthetics were included, Mobil 1 and Pennzoil. They disassembled the engines at the end and measured tolerances and deposits.
Conclusion? No meaningful difference, synthetics included.
I remember that article ..
http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.htm
My two gripes at the time with the test design were as follows:
1) NYC taxi engines do not get the number of cold starts per 1000 miles that would be representative of more "normal" use. Cabbies do not turn off their engines, and when they do, it's followed mostly by a warm start. I have got to believe that a prolonged cold start after the engine has sat for 12 hours in freezing temperatures, and most oil has drained to the bottom of the pan, is much harder on the engine than the miles put on during the remainder of the trip.
2) NYC cabbies, even though they might want to, do not drive at extended speeds for long periods. It's pretty much stop-and-go in Manhatten. Some oils are proven to perform much better than others at high temperatures long periods of time.
So, the taxi engines were not run in same way I run my engines, and Consumer Report's results that "None of the tested oils proved better than the others in our tests" has to be evaluated with that in mind.
http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.htm
My two gripes at the time with the test design were as follows:
1) NYC taxi engines do not get the number of cold starts per 1000 miles that would be representative of more "normal" use. Cabbies do not turn off their engines, and when they do, it's followed mostly by a warm start. I have got to believe that a prolonged cold start after the engine has sat for 12 hours in freezing temperatures, and most oil has drained to the bottom of the pan, is much harder on the engine than the miles put on during the remainder of the trip.
2) NYC cabbies, even though they might want to, do not drive at extended speeds for long periods. It's pretty much stop-and-go in Manhatten. Some oils are proven to perform much better than others at high temperatures long periods of time.
So, the taxi engines were not run in same way I run my engines, and Consumer Report's results that "None of the tested oils proved better than the others in our tests" has to be evaluated with that in mind.
pat161
New member
I don't think a vehicle running synthetic will last any longer, I also don't think leaving oil in for 10k miles or more is a good idea. I run Mobil1 in my 00 Runner for the fact that I believe it flows quicker in cold weather startups, I'm in Central MA and my truck stays outside, no garage. In the summer I could switch to dino but I like to use the same oil all the time, same with the filter. If I lived in a moderate climate I would probably use dino. I have always run dino in my bikes because I only use them in warm weather, and it performs just fine, if I rode in the Winter I'd use synthetic.
RL Lemke
New member
Geeez, I think there is plenty of real world evidence that there is significant difference between oils, both synthetic and dino, available on the web. The white paper I linked to above is just one. To deny the differences is to deny reality. The real issue is whether one wants merely good enough, as compared to the best available. Dino oils are good enough, and a few of the available synthetics are the best available.
There are so many wear surfaces within a vehicle requiring lubrication, the engine is but one. If one is diligent, regular maintenance, with any quality lubrication products will yield great vehicle life expectancy.
I expect a lot from all of my seven vehicles. If I changed oil at 2,500 or 3,000 miles I
There are so many wear surfaces within a vehicle requiring lubrication, the engine is but one. If one is diligent, regular maintenance, with any quality lubrication products will yield great vehicle life expectancy.
I expect a lot from all of my seven vehicles. If I changed oil at 2,500 or 3,000 miles I
JB.
New member
BlackFive said:
Nice link. I looked for something online when I first posted this info
a few months ago but couldn't find anything. Had to perform an archaeological dig for the hard copy.
The cold start issue is the major question mark especiallly in a colder climate, but the fact that there was no real world difference in this significant, if not comprehensive, test speaks volumes about the idea that this issue is not the slam dunk it might first appear to be for synthetics.
I can't know the answer, I can only decide which evidence is the most objective. For me it is:
1. That test, especially considering my warm climate location.
2. Toyota's specification for Dino oil with a caveat about not
switching back and forth once synthetic has been used.
3. Price
TeryT
New member
Yes, that infameous CR NY taxi test - holes were blown in that "research" years ago!
The thing that gets me is Toyota saying not to switch back & forth between synth & dino. People on BITOG say that this is now an outdated falacy that has been corrected - Toyota engineers just haven't caught up. So does this mean in the rare event I had an oil related failure under warranty that they would deny it!?
The thing that gets me is Toyota saying not to switch back & forth between synth & dino. People on BITOG say that this is now an outdated falacy that has been corrected - Toyota engineers just haven't caught up. So does this mean in the rare event I had an oil related failure under warranty that they would deny it!?
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07runner
Guest
TeryT said:
That is a really good question. I sent Toyota a email saying exactly that. All I got back was the typical responce. It is best not to switch back and forth. I even talked about, how if switching back and forth is bad what studies have they conducted to arrive at their
recommendation. They refuse to even reply to that.
After seeing the consumer report test, my only concern is the cold weather start. If I used synthetic in the winter, then all is good. But in the summer I would like to use dino. $1.30 vs $5.40 a qt.
Then Toyota says not to switch back and forth. Why does Toyota make this call, without talking about how they arrived at that conclusion? What is the big secret?
Seems that in warm weather synthetic is no better than regular oil. Consumer reports does mention that extreme heat or cold synthetic could be worth considering. I don't get the severe heat, but at 20 below zero synthetic is the way to go. Just that the other 9 months are fairly mild in temperature. So I would get stuck using synthetic for most of the year with no benefit.
Just wish the switch back and forth thing could be put to bed, this oil comparison certainly has.
Seems that only extreme heat, cold, or heavy loads and hard driving would be any reason to use synthetic.
The only thing up for discussion on this topic now is the switching back and forth between the two.
TeryT
New member
Well then, I might hit on at least one count: I tow a large travel trailer. I suppose one could add to that that I opperate in Phoenix where it gets a zillion degrees (but all those Toyota trucks in Saddam's army seem to do well & I bet they didn't use synthetic! LOL)
Plus now this not changing back - you can never go home again . . .
Plus now this not changing back - you can never go home again . . .
RonMAIDEN
Super Moderator
07runner said:
And those are the reasons I champion synthetics. I tow a boat a few times a year plus it does get hot in Denver and moving along at highway speeds up steep mountain grades is a workout on the horsepower challenged 3rd gen 3.4 plus my oil change runs me a total of about $30 once a year (8000+ miles) so it's not a killer in the wallet in my case so cost isn't an issue.
I also off road and using synthetics in the gearboxes is worth the extra cost also since those conditions can be extremem especially in the summer.
I think switching back and forth isn't a wise idea since synthetics have more conditioners built in to protect rubber seals and such and going back to dino oil which doesn't have the same conditioners for an extended period of time could be the start of minor leaks. It's kinda like the engine is used to the arguably better oil and going back to cheap oil could show flaws in it's inferior protection if placed in an extreme situation.
My take is synthetics and their costs is a bit overkill on a vehicle that is just driven around town and not asked to perform above it's call of duty.
I plan on getting a late '90s Civic as a DD and there's no way I'd run syn in it but the 4Runner will have it as long as I own it.
Towing or racing I could see using synthetic, but for normal run-of-the-mill driving I use dino. I know I COULD go longer with synthetic between changes, but I'm not comfortable with that. I live in moderate climate so cold starts aren't that big of an issue. My main reasoning is........I have 231K on my 93 accord. It doesn't burn or use oil, still gets 32mpg hwy, and I have used only dino oil in it since new and have religiously changed the oil. My thinking is that over a 231K lifespan of oil changes (figure conservatively at $10 MORE per oil change, divide the milage/recommended oil changes and you get @62 oil changes since new) and I've saved at least $620 on oil changes (given what the local shops charge for synthetic it would be more like twice that amount). That comes close to buying me a new engine (which I wouldn't do because the rest of the car also has 231k on it) OR gives me that much more to put down on a new car. I drive my cars till the die, but I take care of them, and doing so with dino oil is cheaper and hasn't given me any reason to complain thus far.
As for the 4runner (wife's ride), it has a warranty so I'm changing the oil at the recommended intervals. Why use synthetic? I know it will last longer between changes but I can't go longer between changes without voiding the warranty. I guess then I could switch to synthetic but by the time the warranty is up you're probably 1/2 to 1/3 through the life of the car (if it's been taken care of). Cars are mechanical devices and are going to wear out sooner or later no matter what you do to them. IMO sinking extra money into something to POSSIBLY extend the life a few % is not a good investment of my dollars. Prove to me that I'll get thrice as many miles out of synthetic before my engine goes and it still not worth it to me because then you have an engine that runs in a worn out hulk. Face it, maybe 3% of the people who own a 4runner here will drive it past 200K. My Honda engine has lasted that long on dino and then some, and I expect my Yota to do the same. It doesn't make add up to spend extra when the end result will be no different.
As for the 4runner (wife's ride), it has a warranty so I'm changing the oil at the recommended intervals. Why use synthetic? I know it will last longer between changes but I can't go longer between changes without voiding the warranty. I guess then I could switch to synthetic but by the time the warranty is up you're probably 1/2 to 1/3 through the life of the car (if it's been taken care of). Cars are mechanical devices and are going to wear out sooner or later no matter what you do to them. IMO sinking extra money into something to POSSIBLY extend the life a few % is not a good investment of my dollars. Prove to me that I'll get thrice as many miles out of synthetic before my engine goes and it still not worth it to me because then you have an engine that runs in a worn out hulk. Face it, maybe 3% of the people who own a 4runner here will drive it past 200K. My Honda engine has lasted that long on dino and then some, and I expect my Yota to do the same. It doesn't make add up to spend extra when the end result will be no different.
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