TE rear locker v. Ltd torsen center diff, if you could only have one?
- Thread starter GatorGreg
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ToyTech99
Guest
Many people (e.g. you?) have stated how the torsen center diff is of benefit on-road. On-road, it is VSC that is the dominant feature that will bail you out of trouble in bad weather.
And no, M1911, you are NOT the only one who understands these systems....
No doubt that VSC can keep you out of trouble if you spin or lose it around a slippery bend, but it is the ability to run 4wd in any road condition that seems to me like the big benefit of the Torsen. I'd rather just "set it and forget it" during the winter months, which is exactly what I do every winter. I put my 4Runner in 4HI and keep it that way throughout the entire winter. It's almost like having an AWD car if you use it that way, which is great during a snow storm because you can go from wet pavement to snow/ice and back again very quickly. I like having the traction available in any conditions without having to go into or out of 4wd.
Thai
Elite Member
Oh i agree with you...it is having your cake and eating it too! However, having 2wd + VSC + traction control (over rear axle) ain't suicide either in the winter months!
People are making it out that having part-time system on the 5th gen is pure suicide for winter folks...it isn't...millions of Americans with 2wd vehicles have survived many months of winter, even before the invention of stability control and traction control. So, yes, fulltime is nice and is a bonus, but is it required for proper winter travels? No. Getting PROPER TIRES is probably the #1 thing to do, right?As mentioned in the other thread, part-time system is not without benefit either...it is simpler, stronger, and engages much faster. Maintenance down the road will be cheaper too i would imagine.
However, having 2wd + VSC + traction control (over rear axle) ain't suicide either in the winter months!
Allow me to go waaaay of topic:sniper:......
Although cars have way better traction control, ABS, improvement in tires, etc. than ever, I would also say that in regards to the use of the 4WD on winter road conditions, it is more important than ever. Because of budget cuts, reduction of state road funding to local governments, shortages of salt, and the doubling of the cost of road salt, we are entering our third straight winter of salt on hills and intersections ONLY, and minimal plowing (i.e., not exactly curb to curb snow removal). Just last week a purchasing coalition representing 20-30 local governments issued a press release saying that due to the above reasons, most jurisdictions would be further reducing the tons of salt per lane mile by about 30%. They had already reduced the tons/lane mile in previous years so they are now only applying about 50% of the salt they used to (again, mostly on hills and intersections only). Plus, not every snowfall even gets treated at all, which means it eventually packs down and freezes.
There is no doubt that road conditions 5, 10, 25 years ago were actually much better than today. It's a fact and a constant concern among road departments around here. In fact, we used to never have Road Emergencies (all roads closed due to poor road conditions), and now we get 1-3 every year. Same amount of snow, same general weather conditions, just a complete cutback in snow removal is the cause.
Keep this situation in mind when saying that "...millions of Americans with 2wd vehicles have survived many months of winter..." True, but perhaps your comment should be taken with, ahem, a grain of salt:biggrin2:
They are two entirely different things. VSC uses accelerometers and the steering position to determine where you want to go, and if the truck is not going in that direction, it uses differential braking to try to make that happen. In other words, it uses brakes to try to keep you from spinning out. Most cars these days, regardless of drivetrain type (e.g., front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive, all-wheel-drive, etc.) have electronic spin control.
In contrast, the Torsen center diff does not try to prevent you from spinning. The Torsen center diff moves ensures that if one axle is spinning freely (e.g., both front tires are on ice), that it doesn't get all of the torque. That is, it transfers torque from front to back.
So I don't understand why you are comparing VSC and a Torsen center diff. They work differently. They are intended for very different things.
I never said I was. Nor am I the only person complaining about the lack of a Torsen on the SR5 and TE. Perhaps, however, I'm the only one who is completely missing your point.And no, M1911, you are NOT the only one who understands these systems....
offshorebear
New member
I haven't driven my 4Runner in snow yet, as I just bought it this summer. That being said, I have noticed big difference between RWD, locked 4hi, and a torsen like center diff in snow on other vehicles, especially on hills. RWD obviously spins the back, locked 4hi sometimes wants to flip around, and the AWD is the easiest.
That being said, it doesn't really matter here in the Northeast. Stopping is still the hardest part of driving in the snow, and that's the same no matter what system you have.
That being said, it doesn't really matter here in the Northeast. Stopping is still the hardest part of driving in the snow, and that's the same no matter what system you have.
sandcrawler
Senior Member
another vote for the Torsen... more useful for my day-to-day.
but seriously, why one or the other? it should be both! just like the 2009 Trail Edition! by all logic and reason, the 2010 Trail Edition should be better than the 2009—it should be the most all-around capable 4Runner Toyota has ever produced. not a step backwards. personally, i think toyota is a little confused: 4Runner should be "back to its roots" in spirit, not functionality. :flamethrwoer2:
but seriously, why one or the other? it should be both! just like the 2009 Trail Edition! by all logic and reason, the 2010 Trail Edition should be better than the 2009—it should be the most all-around capable 4Runner Toyota has ever produced. not a step backwards. personally, i think toyota is a little confused: 4Runner should be "back to its roots" in spirit, not functionality. :flamethrwoer2:
you should do this poll, PredBlue.
JB.
New member
If road bed traction is mixed enough to make one end spin freely, that calls for a locked center, imo.
With the Torsen unlocked, once lack of traction on one end has exceeded the torque biasing limit, it will start to spin like an open differential. The brakes will intervene via traction control, but it takes much more intervention than if the center were locked. The Torsen definitely copes with a much wider range of mixed traction conditions than an open diff, but, by about that same amount, the locked center exceeds the Torsen.
Thai
Elite Member
Seriously, are you kidding me?! You are really hardheaded, aren't you?! Yes, you are the ONLY one who has completely missed my point! :smashputer: Sit back and read again what i wrote...including my response to other members.
I am NOT comparing VSC vs. center diff. Let me make it as simple as i can, but this is embarrassing!
Some people have stated...for ON-ROAD driving, a center diff makes a world of difference. I hope that these same people realize that VSC (stability control) is just as important, if not more so, in on-road driving safety. That is, center diff + VSC = ultimate on-road safety...just hang in there with me here on this one, OK? So, yes, 4th gen 4runners have it good. Still with me?
Ok, 5th gen 4runners with the part-time system has ONLY VSC (stability control)...along with 2wd. We agree? Ok, my point is that for on-road safety, the SAFETY VALUE of VSC exceeds that of the center differential's. Therefore, the 5th gen 4runner is still plenty safe for on-road driving under any conditions. Yes, having a center diff is icing on the cake, but without it, the 5th gen is still OK. Get it now??? Geez. If not, then PLEASE RE-READ THIS ONE MORE TIME.
Exactly. An additonal point, if an axle is fully submerged in mud and has ZERO traction, then the ATRAC system for THAT axle would NOT be working because both wheels on that axle is spinning at the same speed...thus, ATRAC for THAT axle is inactive. So, in a situation like that, a 4th gen 4runner with UNlock center diff will likely be stuck. This is why, when you go off-roading, you need to lock the center diff most of the time. ATRAC works side-to-side only...the ECU/ABS only compares the speed differences among the two tires on the SAME axle. It is the center diff that modulates power front and rear.
Thai
Elite Member
Hahaha, i like that last statement. Good point about the budget cuts and worsening road conditions. Maybe this is why by 2012, all cars on the road will have stability control?
LMAO Thai, he's doing the exact same thing to you that he was doing to me in another thread
Either his reading comprehension is extremely low, or he's deliberately F'ing with us (did you piss him off at some point? ). I'm about 95& confident that it's the latter so therefore I've put M1911 on a 3 day ban vacation for "badgering" in violation of Rule #2.
Hey PredBlue, I understand your point and please feel free to start another poll if you like. The 5th gen v. 4th gen debate is not what I was trying to get at with this poll. I deliberately created the poll the way I did in order to narrow the focus on the choice as stated in the poll in order to determine which of these two features folks covet more. I find the results so far to be fascinating - I was predicting in my own mind that it would be about a 55/45 vote in favor of the Torsen - I wasn't expecting it to be as lopsided as it has turned out to be.
paraordnance
New member
I'm coming from A8 D2 heritage, and let me tell you, nothing could come close in winter with proper tires on road. Torsen all the way!
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ToyTech99
Guest
I'm not surprised at the results so far at all.... Reason being that although many guys on the forum like to think of themselves as offroaders, I'm sure all but the few hardcore offroaders realize the benefits/advantages of the Torsen center diff for street use, particularly in snow. The hardcore guys probably place more value on the rear locker than the Torsen, but the rest of us want our Torsen center diffs!
What really bothers me about the whole thing is that Toyota is supposedly offering the Torsen in Canada, but not in the U.S. I guess that's a good thing though because it would be easy for Toyota to offer it in the U.S. also, if they ever decide to do that.
Most drivers do not go 'true' off-road, they go 'off-pavement' even though they probably don't want to hear that. There's a huge difference between the two and herein lies the advantages of the Torsen over the locker.
A standard 4th Generation 4Runner can get one up many a 'true' off-road save for Lake Como above Jaws 1 but who wants to take a 35K vehicle up that anyway... I certainly do not want to.
But the Torsen will come into a huge advantage on the wet, snowy, slushy roads more so than the locker will help the average 4Runner owner.
Like I mentioned before, you can always add the ARB locker. I cannot for the life of me understand the factory's decision to 'remove' the Torsen and center diff from the 5th Gen when it was there for the 4th and such a positive success.
Unless it was due to cost-cutting reasons and if that's the case, Toyota is heading in the wrong direction with the consumer. :AK47:
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ToyTech99
Guest
I agree with you, but as someone already pointed out, we are enthusiasts and we like to understand exactly how our 4wd systems function. I think the majority of people who buy 4Runners wouldn't know a transfer case from a center diff any more than they would know a driveshaft from an axle.
Toyota is probably betting on that. It's only people like us who are getting our panties in a knot because they took away our Torsen center diff. Most buyers won't know or care as long as they have a 4wd button/lever.
Thai
Elite Member
Remember though, the part-time system is in the TRAIL EDITION (aka off-road edition) and the base model. So, technically speaking, the Trail Edition is meant for those who take their 4runners off-road, not just to camp site. You can see this in Toyota's advertisements and photo shoots.
Of course, i agee with you guys that most Trail Edition owners would not take their rig off-road much. However, in Toyota's defense, they are equpping the TE with what most true off-roaders would want. It is kinda like the Jeep wrangler. How many Wrangler owners need solid axles front and rear? Not many, but it is an off-road vehicle...so, you can't wimp out on it.
Of course, i agee with you guys that most Trail Edition owners would not take their rig off-road much. However, in Toyota's defense, they are equpping the TE with what most true off-roaders would want. It is kinda like the Jeep wrangler. How many Wrangler owners need solid axles front and rear? Not many, but it is an off-road vehicle...so, you can't wimp out on it.
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ToyTech99
Guest
Right, but that's EXACTLY the problem. Toyota should have put the part-time system in the Trail Edition and left the Torsen in both the Limited and the SR5.
Not many people are going to be happy to have to step up to the high-priced Limited to get the Torsen. Especially when you also have to get those goofy 20 inch wheels also.
It's really the SR5 guys that are getting screwed. They don't get the Torsen and they also don't get the rear locking diff either, right? Who would buy an SR5 then? Not me.
Actually I prefer the Trail Edition for here in Colorado but w/o the Torsen and center diff lock/unlock, I'm not stepping to the plate. Hopefully the factory reads these messages.
Thai
Elite Member
Toytech, you (and the rest of us) are an enthusiast...you represent a very small percentage of the general population who would buy the 4runner.
Who would buy SR5? Someone who is just looking for a reliable SUV for towing or hauling stuff. It is like buying a base model Jeep Grand Cherokee, right? Does the base JGC have QDII? No...it is a rare option on the base model (i think). It is like saying who would buy a 2wd 4th gen 4runner? A lot of people did!
The rear diff locker is a pure off-road tool...therefore, rightfully so, it is in the Trail Edition. Why would it be in the SR5? If you want it, then you need it for off-roading...in which case, you should be buying the TE anyways. And as an off-road edition, some may not want more complexity in their 4wd system.
The Limited is the near-Lexus like trim along with luxury price tag...so, it gets the center diff along with the bling-bling rims. 20" rims are on par with society's expectations...see Venza's 19" rims, see Caddy Escalades, see Lexus LX570, see LR3, see Range Rovers, etc.. The nice thing is that you can always switch out the 20" rims to a smaller rim if you want. So, again, not a big deal. I am sure that you can find someone in a SR5 (or even TE) who would not mind exchanging rims.
What Toyota is doing for the 5th gen is on par with the market's expectations. Of course, it will rub some enthusiasts the wrong way...isn't that the case with EVERY REDESIGN of a vehicle? When the 4th gen came out, 3rd gen owners swear that they will not buy it due to the plastic cladding, square fenders, balloon size, low clearance, no rear locker, cheap interior (yes, 4th gen interior is cheaper in quality than 3rd gen), optional 17" rims (oh no!!), etc.. And now we have the 4th gen owners swearing that they won't buy the 5th gen! How history repeats itself!
