"the alpine 1" dash component review"
- Thread starter rigtec
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rigtec
New member
WOW! you don't mess around at all do ya lol! (...you wanna buy a bridge? For you, I can let it go real cheap?) hahaha! "Just messin' witcha!"
As far as what I'll drop in the doors... I'll likely stay with alpine since all of my car audio equipment e.g. two 15 inch subs, two 1200W mono-block bass amps, and now dash tweeters, are made by them: Amazon.com : Alpine SPS-610 6-1/2" 2-Way Type-S Series Coaxial Car Speakers : Component Vehicle Speakers : Car Electronics
The SPS-610
They're in the same series as the SPS-110TW, ...fairly cheap @$56 bucks w/FREE S&H, but the best thing is... these are a Drop-in set; which means they're an exact fit: no cutting, no searching adapters, no..."UH-OH's!" I'll be sure to post something about the install when I get them; particularly if I encounter a serious problem mounting them; but it does kinda look like we've found an E-X-A-C-T F-I-T speaker set for our beloved 4Runners. I don't mind putting in the work to improve on or to modify the truck... but sometimes you just wanna order a kit that has everything already in it; no special orders, no special searches!!
You mentioned my tailgate speakers... A while back I did a modification to Toyota's 'Party mode' feature; I realize that most of you post 2013 4R owners have no clue what a party mode is lol! It was a bad idea for a car audio system, which manipulates the speaker system in such a way that removes the rear door speakers from the sound system equation, while simultaneously moving the second row sound to the extreme rear cargo area, but steps up (improves) on the headunit's fidelity and sound quality; which makes it almost impossible to listen to music without that feature turned on... :crazy: I guess the folks over at Toyota corporate (Japan) believe that all of us northern Americans spend most of our time at tailgate gatherings and bonfire events!
So I altered that system so I could enjoy the higher fidelity sound quality from the headunit AND... preserve the second row speaker function; with or without the tailgate speakers being on! At this time I choose not to use the tailgate speakers AT ALL. They're too far away to make efficient use of the nominal, 20 watt power amplifiers built-in to the hu (divides the 20W power output by 4). The rear seats block any direct sound imagery that may have been helpful for adding some (apparent) volume and sound quality. But the two main reasons that I won't use the tailgate speakers is (1) that 10 watts of rear channel power can be redirected to the 4ohm rear door speakers and used much more efficiently there where they can actually be heard. And (2) I'm using a rather large scale (two 15's, 2400 watt mono-blocks: 1200w + 1200w per driver) sub back there; which render those tailgate speakers much 'non-existent'! Here's a look of what I mean:
I'll post a couple of links to two threads which I think will be very helpful to some of you newer members: There's http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/174196-got-bass.html ...which covers (i feel) some areas of "Low frequency sound system theory" that the experts just don't explain in a way that everyone can understand. And then there's this: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/171794-party-mode-tweak-non-jbl.html This one definitely covers the way that your 5'th gen 4Runner's speakers are wired; you don't need to be technically inclined to follow along and see just how your radio and speaker system are tied together. I'm hoping that this long &$$ post will help some that consider yourselves new to this 'audio system stuff' find a great deal of insight, and also helps you to feel more confident, and less intimidated by the subject of: 'Understanding audio systems for your 4Runner!'
Rgds!
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rigtec
New member
Hi Griz,
Yeah you're right. All this stuff is highly subjective, most often frustrating and... you never really know when you've gotten it right! As far as the layout of the vehicle's cabin and setting it up properly... you don't have to reinvent the wheel wrt speaker placement (tweeters aimed at the windshield, door speakers aimed at your ankles...), you just gotta make yourself comfortable as best you can; whatever that means to you! There is no scientific formula or recipe that can be used to get it right because we must first determine exactly what is meant by the word RIGHT! If you were to look at the oem speaker components that are in your truck now... replacing them can only make it better! I found that focusing on just One area of the sound system e.g., the lows or the mids...etc helps to build a sense of accomplishment one stage at a time.
I chose to work on the low-end first because the low-end (IMHO) was in massive need of revamping. Toyota could have at least given the 4Runner mid level quality components, just mid-level quality gear and I would've been content. But removing my 4Runner's speakers for a quick quality assessment revealed just why the system sounded so poorly! So if you want Just Decent sounding music in the truck, then there's no real alternative but to upgrade; even the $50 dollar tweeters that I installed here are vastly superior to the stock units in the dash:
Don't be apprehensive about upgrading the sound in the truck. Just set a reasonable goal e.g., I'll only spend X-amount to replace the headunit or, I can replace the door speakers without breaking the bank, or maybe add a sub... This way you prevent yourself from becoming overwhelmed with an unreasonable task like trying to rebuild the entire sound system!
NOTE: A lot of guys here have absolutely done some fantastic work on their sound systems, even to the point of removing everything from the front to the back; I'm talking every piece of trim, every piece of plastic and screw so they could remove the carpet to line the entire cabin w/ dyn-a-mat sound damping material! ...and they did great work even rivaling the professional installers! Maybe I'll post some of these projects so you can see them; I'll need to get permission from them first but I don't really think they'll mind!
Cheers!
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As far as what I'll drop in the doors... I'll likely stay with alpine since all of my car audio equipment e.g. two 15 inch subs, two 1200W mono-block bass amps, and now dash tweeters, are made by them: Amazon.com : Alpine SPS-610 6-1/2" 2-Way Type-S Series Coaxial Car Speakers : Component Vehicle Speakers : Car Electronics
The SPS-610
Rgds!
Have you tested those speakers yet? I would be really surprised if someone who has spent as much time and money as you have on the sub sound stage will be happy with those speakers.
I used to run Alpine speakers before the Bostons. I installed their mid-line (at the time - late 80s) in my Jeep Comanche pickup in the doors, running off an Nakamichi amp. They were paired with a pair of 8" mid-bass drivers and a pair of 12" subs, each set with their own amp. (this was a regular cab PU)
The Alpines could not keep up at all. I took them back and bumped up to their top line 3 way 6.5" (comparable to today's Type R series). The difference was night and day. They were 10 times better. They could handle the power (even though the amp was only 75w RMS), provide clean mid-bass and clear highs.
Make sure you really test those out before committing to them. I hope I am wrong but if my limited experience with the Type S sub is any indication, they aren't going to be what you are looking for.
On a different note, assuming these are for the front doors, are you going to disable the tweeters on them? I would think you will get some strange time delay issues with the highs if you don't. (although since they are the same class, it might actually work OK)
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rigtec
New member
For now I just would like to get the '99 cent store' speakers out of my doors. If/whenever I decide to swap the headunit for a high-end Alpine nav unit, I'll choose 'Top-shelf' speakers to match it; no point in installing all new high-end drivers with a low-end source unit feeding them. As far as mid/high frequency driver time delay issues (we're talking Pro-Sound audio)... That only applies when sound has to travel over great distances (hundreds of meters across a concert hall or Colosseum floor space; sound travels far too fast to detect a delay between high freq tweeters across a three or four foot span with the human ear.
Now you may experience a noticeable delay (in your suv) when pairing low frequency subs with mid/high frequency drivers because of the extra time it takes to physically push those massive diaphragm/cones, sometimes weighing upwards of 150-200 grams for an average 12 or 15 inch sub. That's where you may need to impose ms T/D's in your high frequency signal; which gives the subs a couple m/s head start. Thanks for the heads-up!
cheers
Makes sense. Didn't realize you were still using the stock head unit with no amp. The type S are probably more efficient so should work OK.
Did not know that about time delay. Had always read that with the highs, placement regarding mid bass drivers was important due to the delay. Figured it was because the wave was so small.
I wonder if having the two tweeters that far off axis will affect the sound stage or will centralize it more, especially once new speakers are added to the rear doors.
Did not know that about time delay. Had always read that with the highs, placement regarding mid bass drivers was important due to the delay. Figured it was because the wave was so small.
I wonder if having the two tweeters that far off axis will affect the sound stage or will centralize it more, especially once new speakers are added to the rear doors.
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rigtec
New member
I can see that you are More than just a 'Casual car-audio week-end warrior' but an avid audio systems aficionado, Kudos! One of the reasons that I decided to start an audio thread here, was because there is so much confusion, myth, folklore, hearsay, smoke-n-mirrors and snake-oil out there that I thought it might be helpful to address some of the misunderstanding that's been floating around... forever!
And who better to 'Myth-Bust' and dialog with than some of the folks here; who may be getting into a little bit of car audio because our 4Runners are kinda like a prize to us, and want it (and it's stereo system) to be the very best that it can be. I appreciate your comments and concerns, and some here may have had some of the very same questions, thoughts, and ideas as you do, but maybe chose not to voice them... 'for whatever reason'... so you've been their voice; Thank you for that! On another note, I've considered your suggestion about using a higher level of the Alpine door speakers. I think you're right! I should step up to a better level of the Alpine (or anybody's) line of speaker products so I'm moving up to this one:
It has a higher sensitivity (1/w 1/m) than the 'SPS-610' which is like ultra important; especially when the power amp's (Built-in to headunit) output is on a tight budget. The price is still very good at $101 dollars w/free S&H. These are in my shopping cart as we speak Amazon.com : ALPINE SPR-69 6X9" 2-WAY COAXIAL SPEAKERS 300W PEAK / 100W RMS : Vehicle Speakers : Car Electronics so I'll look it over one more time before pulling the trigger; if all checks out, it'll be here real soon! Thanks for your suggestion tigger, best!
rigtec
I think you will be much happier with those speakers if you decide to go that route. Especially if you decide to add an amp in the future.
I still need to decide what to do with the rear speakers. Still running stock, but they sound so flat. On my very long to do list some day.
I still need to decide what to do with the rear speakers. Still running stock, but they sound so flat. On my very long to do list some day.
rigtec
New member
Yeah I ordered the 'Alpine SPR-69' from amazon a couple hrs ago, thanks for the suggestion, I'm really happy that I did it!! I was looking for your 4R info: year, model, trim and ended up admiring your build thread for the last 20 minutes... WOW!!! 'That's some really nice work you've done to your truck Brian; "TOP NOTCH CRAFTSMANSHIP!!!" I was really impressed with the KnoKnoise Sound damping material install; looks like some great stuff! I can hardly imagine how good it must sound being surrounded with all that dampening material, truck must sound solid as a rock; and zero road noise! :hatsoff:
Thank you. That means a lot coming from you.
I am pleased with the sound proofing. The doors have a very pleasing thunk when closing them. But the tires and the rack do cause issues. Being an aggressive tread, I can hear the tires at speed. It's not terrible or overly annoying, but you can hear them. I may switch up to some nice AT's to help alleviate that issue.
As far as the rack and light bar, I have managed to relocate the rack lower to the top of the truck and move the light bar to the from of the air dam. That helped a lot, but you can still hear them, especially when it is windy. I had some radiant barrier on the sunroof shade that really helped, but it was a little too big and got caught one time when the sunroof was open and didn't come back out, so it is trapped on the top of my head liner. Doesn't hurt anything and that part of the liner is a little quieter
ound:I have some more of the radiant barrier and MLV to put up there. Just need to get around to cutting it to the right size and using velcro or something so it doesn't fall off again.
[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION],
Please let us know how the install went, and your opinion of the sound quality. I'm very curious if the supplied brackets (or frames) fit our cars, or if you had to do some modifications.
Also, how did you deal with the wiring at the dash tweeter? There are four wires coming out of the factory wiring connector. Did you have to "jump" two of them?
Please let us know how the install went, and your opinion of the sound quality. I'm very curious if the supplied brackets (or frames) fit our cars, or if you had to do some modifications.
Also, how did you deal with the wiring at the dash tweeter? There are four wires coming out of the factory wiring connector. Did you have to "jump" two of them?
flyinhawaiian01
New member
LOL! For as long as I've known Brian (Tigger), he's always had great-sounding systems in all of his vehicles!
I don't even bother trying to keep up with his ever-changing systems any more, its always something different he's trying out or modifying! He should have opened a car audio shop years ago, he would have been great at it! Hell, if I knew him 20 years ago, I woulda hired him as my head installer when I still had my shop!
Of course he (and I!) are too old for crawlin' under dashboards any more, so a car audio shop is out of the question now!!! We now just whine to each other about how much pain we're in when we have to work on stuff in the 4 runners!
I don't even bother trying to keep up with his ever-changing systems any more, its always something different he's trying out or modifying! He should have opened a car audio shop years ago, he would have been great at it! Hell, if I knew him 20 years ago, I woulda hired him as my head installer when I still had my shop!
Of course he (and I!) are too old for crawlin' under dashboards any more, so a car audio shop is out of the question now!!! We now just whine to each other about how much pain we're in when we have to work on stuff in the 4 runners!
[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION] - I love bridges!
I did order the dash speakers, they arrive on Monday. Based on your experience it "sounds" like I'll be pleased with the result. Can you let me know (or post on this thread) what you think of the door speakers after your install?
I did order the dash speakers, they arrive on Monday. Based on your experience it "sounds" like I'll be pleased with the result. Can you let me know (or post on this thread) what you think of the door speakers after your install?
rigtec
New member
'ME TOO'! hahaha! You've also got a great sense of humor Ben, thanks for the laughs!!
I'll be more than happy to update you and everyone else here that may be interested in going up a couple notches regarding the oem 4Runner dash and door speakers. I'm not sure if you are aware but my Alpine door speaker selection has changed. My intention was to order the SPS-610 for the two front doors but [MENTION=120209]tigger[/MENTION]; another very serious car audio system builder, suggested that I may have set the bar too low, and he was right!
So instead of the SPS-610, I ordered the Alpine SPR-69 mid-bass set. Regarding the Alpine dash tweeter replacement, the difference was night-n-day so I have no doubt that replacing the very low budget oem door speakers will make a 'huge difference' in sound quality. ...keep us posted as to your install progress. If you have any problems or concerns don't hesitate to ask myself or one of the others here for help, Best!
rigtec
New member
Hi ae,
I'll surely keep you guys updated on this mid-level dash/door speaker install; particularly if I encounter any setbacks regarding hardware, sound anomalies or wiring clarification notes!
I left you the wiring notes here; perhaps you didn't see them: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/2183876-post103.html "...and see wiring diagram below":
Hey team,
After re-reading my last addition to this thread, "got bass", I just thought to put up the Front Dash & Door speaker wiring diag so you could follow it for yourself... "it's amazing the things you can forget to do @3:00am in the morning!
...But at least I remembered to take pictures this time lol!" On the left side (driverside), the LT Green is POSITIVE(+) and the Blue is NEGATIVE(-). On the right side (passenger-side), the Pink is POSITIVE(+) and the Yellow is NEGATIVE(-)
...What I said about you having the freedom to decide which wires will go to the positive and negative terminals on the replacement speakers still stands... it don't make a tinkers bit-a-difference; just be consistent regarding the left and right channels or you may create sound anomalies that will degrade the performance of your new speakers!
'Best to you'!
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rigtec
New member
Hi there Mr. GRIMACE...
As long as you're havin' fun that's all that really matters now isn't it, haha!! The SPR-69 set just came in today as a matter of fact. I'm hoping to get them in this week but I ran into an issue yesterday. I had ordered a pair of "Y" RCA 'splitter cables; one FEM (in) to two MALES (out) to feed the two mono-block bass amp's L & R Channels. When the rca cables arrived I went to drop them in, takes two minutes! Well... the bottom amp's cable replacement went fine. But when I tried to install the second one, the tip of one of the males broke off in the amp's rca input! I examined the remaining portion of the tip, still on the RCA male conn. to see why it broke off so easily.
Turns out that it had a hollow core and was filled with some sort of paper or light foam
...light foam??? I tried to get it out with an extracting tool that I made; it's just a small gauge, coarse threaded screw with a super sharp tip, but N/G, it spun and moved further in the hole. I tested the amp's Right (RED) input but it's dead. So before I go any further with the upgrade, I have to restore the system to it's full working order! Tomorrow, I'll remove the amp from the truck, take it apart and see what went wrong in there; I just hope that nothing on the input board (Op-amp) was damaged! Here's the RCA cable that has caused all this trouble:
It's made by DB-Link. Here's the link to where I bought them: Amazon.com : DB Link Double Shielded Competition Series CLY2MZ 2 Male To 1 Female RCA Y Adapter : Vehicle Amplifier Stereo Patch Cables : Car Electronics I have nothing negative to say about Amazon, or the seller; I get most of my stuff from them because of the their low prices and the convenience! What gets me is that these shielded cables only cost $3 bucks... not worth sending back to the manufacturer, but I will leave some very unfavorable reviews wherever I can about this product; there are a few sites where I leave reviews about products that I come across... but most of my reviews are very favorable... don't have time to spend complaining but I'll make ^X to review this piece of garbage just to prevent others from having to go through this... I really shouldn't have to make an amp repair for something as stupid as this!!
CAUTION: Please Do Not use or buy this product!!
I'll be installing the door speakers as soon as I get a handle on what's needed for this repair. ...until then, you know what...
:cheers: rig
Hi rigtec,
I'd like to clarify that by "soundstage", I was referring to something more specific than general sound quality (like obvious dips in sound sweeps). What I'm interested in relates more with acoustic spread/placement that is achieved with the positioning of the speakers. At least in home audio, a prime example is having two great bookshelf speakers, that when reproducing music you can close your eyes and hear the music as if to pinpoint where each musical instrument is on a stage.
When I was last serious about car audio (roughly 15 year ago), speaker aiming and placement were critical (in addition to sound deadening and custom enclosures). It is possible to achieve good soundstage in a car, even to the point that it would seem the sound is extending beyond the limits of the cabin.
Speaker design doesn't make huge leaps like the manufacturers would lead us to believe, though speaker designs will react slightly differently in varying environments (e.g., firing off the windshield). Meanwhile, head units may have advanced to automatically (or manually) adjust timing, balance, etc., but I doubt they would be able to resolve the distortion that occurs when reflecting high frequencies (or any sound for that matter) off of a windshield.
What gets me a little discouraged about the 4runner is that the interior is poorly laid out, and to fix the acoustic shortcomings (as I see them) would require a major overhaul of the interior (e.g., relocating parts of the door panels to accommodate better positioning of the speakers).
I've been driving vehicles in the past 15 years that had decent enough audio that I could divorce myself from the idea of dumping ridiculous money (and time) into an aftermarket stereo. However the audio in my 4runner (even with the modest upgrade that comes in the TurdPro) is just awful - to the point that I often find silence a better option.
Btw, I'm entirely open to someone telling me I'm wrong, and that they've achieved good soundstage without changing speaker placement. My posts are an ongoing rant, but I'm also trying to learn. A lot of audio is subjective, I'd just rather not go down the path of upgrading the stereo if it's going to require the free time I had available 15 years ago in order to achieve an acceptable quality.
Hawaiian4runner
New member
I know bouncing highs off the windshield is less than ideal but I think the angle of our windshields make it pretty acceptable. I have an active setup with a Helix DSP and the soundstaging from the drivers seat is impressive in my opinion. Took quite a few hours of tuning but vocals are planted nicely in center stage with the "music" in a wider stage. I was playing the back door speakers very softly because back door passenger side was degrading my front soundstage but Helix suggested delaying the back speakers a little more so they would be more of a surround effect and damn that made a world of difference. I love it.
Downside is from all other seats, the sound is not as pleasing. You can distinctly hear each speaker separately due to time alignment but who gives a shit, it's my car!
Downside is from all other seats, the sound is not as pleasing. You can distinctly hear each speaker separately due to time alignment but who gives a shit, it's my car!
flyinhawaiian01
New member
LOL! Glad I'm not the only one who's listened to silence, rather than try to deal with the poor quality of the stock system, even with an amp and sub!
Night and day difference with the new head unit is an understatement! More like night on Pluto and day on the surface of the sun!
As for center staging, I was surprised with just how well it sounds after replacing the head unit and dropping in quality tweeters in the dash. With some time alignment tweaking, and an in-car mic hooked to the head unit's reference input, it is actually very well balanced and center stage is fantastic, even with the stock door speakers and stock head unit powering them.
Of course, just like Hawaiian4Runner's experience, the other seats sound pretty bad with the amount of shifting from the timing alignment! I sat in the passenger's seat the other day and was pretty shocked at how bad it sounded, compared to the driver's seat!
Brian, you shoulda told me it sounded that bad from the passenger's seat last week! Next trip, I'll swap seats with ya, but only for a little while!!! :bump2:
