timing belt problems....

[Climber]

So I finally found the time to knock out my timing belt and water pump and ive hit a roadblock. I went to install the new belt and I noticed my cams are nowhere near being close to the marks. Do I need to adjust those to match? my engine was running great before and don't want to mess that up. I don't think I moved them but I did have a lot of trouble removing the bolt in the crank pulley so I don't kno if that could have moved them. heres some pics.

 

[sterbenlicht]

You can just turn them back to where they're supposed to be. You can spin the cams around anywhere you want, tilting them one way or the other as you need to to get the belt on. Shifting them left and right to move the slack in the belt around so you can get it around everything you need to is fine. Just make sure when you put the new belt on, the marks on the new belt are exactly where the marks on the pulleys are.

 

[Climber]

You can just turn them back to where they're supposed to be. You can spin the cams around anywhere you want, tilting them one way or the other as you need to to get the belt on. Shifting them left and right to move the slack in the belt around so you can get it around everything you need to is fine. Just make sure when you put the new belt on, the marks on the new belt are exactly where the marks on the pulleys are.

wgen I turn them it takes a ton of force to move them but they wont spin and I don't want to force it. how hard is it to spin them?

 

[poleclimber63]

I did an engine replacement in April and did the TB/WP with the engine on a stand. Very nice!
When it comes to aligning things up, align the R and L up with the top notches on each side, and crank to the dots(or pulley with 0, if you haven't removed the pulley). It is infinitely easier to align these marks BEFORE you remove the old belt. Remove the pulley and ensure the crank gear dot is lined up with the mark on the oil pump housing. Push a wire into the small hole in the hydraulic tensioner, loosen bolts on the pulleys and remove. Clean and replace WP. Place new TB, the belt may also have markings on it for cams and crank. Just ensure all of those are aligned (and of course, the gear marks) and you'll be ok. Remove wire to retension. Use standard re-tensioning procedure and re-check alignment.
This link has some pics:Toyota Maintenance: 3.4L V6 Timing Belt Replacement

Woops, I noticed you've removed the belt, in the pics. OK, you have to find TDC on #1 cyl. One way to get to TDC(Compression) on #1 is to Remove the #1 spark plug and rotate the crank clockwise until you feel air rush out of the cylinder and hit your fingers (if you have a compression gauge with a hose, you could use this)...you should be on or near the mark on the crank gear aligned with the oil pump housing. This is the end of the TDC(Compression) stroke and start of the power stroke. If you don't feel air go past your fingers, you're on the exhaust stroke. You'll have to rotate the crank one full turn to get to the compression stroke. Then align the cam marks and you're ready for the TB placement. Cyl 1 is front cyl closest to rad, on passenger side.

 

[TheDurk]

I did an engine replacement in April and did the TB/WP with the engine on a stand. Very nice!
When it comes to aligning things up, align the R and L up with the top notches on each side, and crank to the dots(or pulley with 0, if you haven't removed the pulley). It is infinitely easier to align these marks BEFORE you remove the old belt. Remove the pulley and ensure the crank gear dot is lined up with the mark on the oil pump housing. Push a wire into the small hole in the hydraulic tensioner, loosen bolts on the pulleys and remove. Clean and replace WP. Place new TB, the belt may also have markings on it for cams and crank. Just ensure all of those are aligned (and of course, the gear marks) and you'll be ok. Remove wire to retension. Use standard re-tensioning procedure and re-check alignment.
This link has some pics:Toyota Maintenance: 3.4L V6 Timing Belt Replacement

Woops, I noticed you've removed the belt, in the pics. OK, you have to find TDC on #1 cyl. One way to get to TDC(Compression) on #1 is to Remove the #1 spark plug and rotate the crank clockwise until you feel air rush out of the cylinder and hit your fingers (if you have a compression gauge with a hose, you could use this)...you should be on or near the mark on the crank gear aligned with the oil pump housing. This is the end of the TDC(Compression) stroke and start of the power stroke. If you don't feel air go past your fingers, you're on the exhaust stroke. You'll have to rotate the crank one full turn to get to the compression stroke. Then align the cam marks and you're ready for the TB placement. Cyl 1 is front cyl closest to rad, on passenger side.

NO, NO, NO. If the belt is off, don't worry about compression stroke. With the belt off, you are just rotating valves (cams shaft) or just the pistons (crankshaft). You will never need to feel compression. Just align the marks and you are on compression. When you are on exhaust, the cams are 180° out--the marks are at the bottom when the crank mark is back on top. The pistons are in time when the #1 is up--when the mark is at the top. Nothing changes 360° later--WHEN THE BELT IS OFF AND THE CAMS DON'T MOVE. When the belt is on, correctly, all three marks on top, you HAVE to be on compression.

In the old days, you would have to worry about distributor timing being 180° out because dizzy's were geared, but that doesn't apply to these engines where the ignition timing is done by sensor.

 

[csp]

In the old days, you would have to worry about distributor timing being 180° out because dizzy's were geared, but that doesn't apply to these engines where the ignition timing is done by sensor.

This. TDC is TDC regardless with the belt off. Any stroke is compression on #1 if the valves are closed and the valves won't move since the cams aren't being driven by the missing belt.

 

[Climber]

NO, NO, NO. If the belt is off, don't worry about compression stroke. With the belt off, you are just rotating valves (cams shaft) or just the pistons (crankshaft). You will never need to feel compression. Just align the marks and you are on compression. When you are on exhaust, the cams are 180° out--the marks are at the bottom when the crank mark is back on top. The pistons are in time when the #1 is up--when the mark is at the top. Nothing changes 360° later--WHEN THE BELT IS OFF AND THE CAMS DON'T MOVE. When the belt is on, correctly, all three marks on top, you HAVE to be on compression.

In the old days, you would have to worry about distributor timing being 180° out because dizzy's were geared, but that doesn't apply to these engines where the ignition timing is done by sensor.

So what do I need to do in order to turn the top two cams? mine will not budge, they move but then bounce right back, I must be doing something wrong...

 

[poleclimber63]

NO, NO, NO. If the belt is off, don't worry about compression stroke. With the belt off, you are just rotating valves (cams shaft) or just the pistons (crankshaft). You will never need to feel compression. Just align the marks and you are on compression. When you are on exhaust, the cams are 180° out--the marks are at the bottom when the crank mark is back on top. The pistons are in time when the #1 is up--when the mark is at the top. Nothing changes 360° later--WHEN THE BELT IS OFF AND THE CAMS DON'T MOVE. When the belt is on, correctly, all three marks on top, you HAVE to be on compression.

In the old days, you would have to worry about distributor timing being 180° out because dizzy's were geared, but that doesn't apply to these engines where the ignition timing is done by sensor.

Ok, I stand corrected. Woops, Of course, with the belt off, you'll never get compression, as the crank would be rotating independently of the cams!!! I basically quoted what I did a few years ago, on my Toyota Corolla, when I messed up my TB change, to fix it. What I failed to mention, was I used a dowel down the #1 and Identified TDC, re-installed belt, them rotated the crank to check for these conditions. That's when I discovered I was misaligned!!! It had a distributor....which didn't point to #1!!! It was a real pain and waste of time to take it apart again... I never did that again!!! Different engine, different era.....
:behindsofa:

 

[TheDurk]

So what do I need to do in order to turn the top two cams? mine will not budge, they move but then bounce right back, I must be doing something wrong...

It's a non-interference engine. They should turn with enough leverage. With the belt on, using the crank bolt, you have a 2 to 1 mechanical advantage on the cams, but there are two of them so that cancels out. Don't expect them to move by hand as there are heavy springs on those cams and they will fight you. Two might be easier than one because one is probably sliding down the cam while the other is sliding up so the forces cancel out; you only have to overcome friction. This is what it sounds like to me. Use a 24-inch breaker bar on each cam bolt and they should move to the alignment point with not that much force. I admit I never tried this, as I always line things up before removing the belt and they never get that far out.

 

[TheDurk]

Ok, I stand corrected. Woops, Of course, with the belt off, you'll never get compression, as the crank would be rotating independently of the cams!!! I basically quoted what I did a few years ago, on my Toyota Corolla, when I messed up my TB change, to fix it. What I failed to mention, was I used a dowel down the #1 and Identified TDC, re-installed belt, them rotated the crank to check for these conditions. That's when I discovered I was misaligned!!! It had a distributor....which didn't point to #1!!! It was a real pain and waste of time to take it apart again... I never did that again!!! Different engine, different era.....
:behindsofa:

Yep, a once in a lifetime mistake. Mine was on a 1966 Farmall 140 tractor 4 cyl, 123 cu. in. about 40 years ago. Will never do that again in this lifetime. I use those big drinking straws from MAcD's and the like. I still run that tractor. (No timing belt , but the same thing happens when you have a gear-driven dizzy out of the engine and put it back wrong.)

 

[NCrunner2012]

So what do I need to do in order to turn the top two cams? mine will not budge, they move but then bounce right back, I must be doing something wrong...

just take the spark plugs out if you are having a tough time

 

[TheDurk]

just take the spark plugs out if you are having a tough time

He is just turning the camshafts. Plugs out will not make any difference.

 

[freshley]

Yes, plugs only help with compression by the crank.

First thing, don't freak out. This is normal. The cams control the valves which have springs on them. The springs want to turn the cam so that all the valves are closed, you just have to put a wrench on it and turn it until it lines up and then put the belt on to hold it there. Some times it's easier to turn one way or the other but it shouldn't matter which way you get there just as long as the timing marks line up.

 

[sterbenlicht]

So what do I need to do in order to turn the top two cams? mine will not budge, they move but then bounce right back, I must be doing something wrong...

You just need something big enough. It shouldn't take an insane amount of force to turn them, but it will take a bit of ass. The shorter the tool you're using, the more difficult it will be. I'd use some kind of long ratchet or a breaker bar about a foot and a half long or so. I'd also turn them clockwise as it's good practice. I'm just picky about torque specs. It's not a huge deal because it will take less than the torque spec of those cam pulley bolts to turn them either way, but I always try to turn them back around to where they're supposed to be by going clockwise.

Anyway, unless you did something to the crank pulley, then it should still be close enough to leave it alone. If that's the case, then the cam pulleys will need to be turned back up near the top where the notches are. Using a big enough tool will get them to turn, but be aware that the tension of the springs will come in spurts. it will be difficult to turn until a certain point and then it'll slip ahead and jump to the next point of least tension from the springs. That's usually the problem people have with getting them to sit in the correct location for the timing belt anyway. With the marks lined up with the notches, it's between two of those points so it can easily flop over That's why I'd spin them to the top as near the notches as you can and then find a nice point somewhere in that area where it will rest without feeling like it's close to slipping around again. Get the new belt, arrows facing the front of the truck, cam marks lined up with the cam pulley marks, put some clips on them to hold them in place and then you can gently shift the cams either way to give more slack in the lower end to get the mark on the crank lined up correctly. It might help to have another person nearby with some wrenches on the cams so they can spin them one way or the other while you're getting it lined up because sometimes while you're messing with it, one of the cams will be near the point of slipping around and it'll be so strong that it'll do it even with your clips meaning those top timing belt marks will come off again.

Bottom line is the cams are difficult to turn at various points in their 360 degree cycle, but they will turn. On this non-interference engine, they will spin around and around with more tension every uh...probably 30 or 60 degrees around. I'm just guessing because there are three cylinders on the cam. Anyway, it doesn't matter where they are exactly in relation to TDC because what really matters is the marks on the belt. You're instructed to move it to TDC because it's a point of reference to go by and all pulleys should be able to rest should anything slip out of place while the belt is off. Those are just points to return the pulleys to, and the marks on the new belt are made to line up with the marks on the pulleys assuming you're putting the pulleys all near TDC making everything easier.

 

[Climber]

Thank you all for the help, I successfully lined up all three cams! you guys are great thanks for the help, now lets just hope I put everything together right when I refill the coolant and start the old girl.