Tire gurus, help me settle a dispute

[wnelax04sr5]

First of all, Michelin tires are over-rated garbage. We already hashed this out in another thread. How do you think they get 90,000 miles out of a tire? By using hard rubber compound. And hard rubber compounds simply can not grip as well as soft ones. Also, all you have to do is search the web and you'll see LOTS of Michelin and BFG (same company) tires with dry rotting. Many people find they can't even use up all the tread before the tire gets too old to keep in service. Just utter junk. For the prices you pay to get Michelin, you could have MUCH higher quality USA made tires on your truck.

Second, what hurts mileage is 3 things: rolling resistance, height (leverage), and weight. You already said the weights are the same. And you already said you're sticking with the same type of tire so rolling resistance won't be a huge issue. The height will be the only thing working against you. From real world experience I'm betting you'll lose 0.5 MPGs by going up a size.

Now, if you go with aggressive tires or heavier tires, your mileage will be destroyed. I have lost a hand calculated 1.75 MPGs since going to 255/75 MTs. That's 33 bucks a month for me (1300 miles per month) and it's just not worth it. So I'm selling my new 255/75s and I'm going back to a milder tire for this particular rig.

i fully agree on all points you make about the michelins. he argued that people get more miles out of michelins, and i asked him what load range he was looking at. it was E. its a harder ride, harder compound, and is more expensive. Ive looked at the at3, toyos, bfgs, and goodyears, and for me, the firestones just make the most sense

 

[Sungod]

First of all, Michelin tires are over-rated garbage. We already hashed this out in another thread. How do you think they get 90,000 miles out of a tire? By using hard rubber compound. And hard rubber compounds simply can not grip as well as soft ones. Also, all you have to do is search the web and you'll see LOTS of Michelin and BFG (same company) tires with dry rotting. Many people find they can't even use up all the tread before the tire gets too old to keep in service. Just utter junk. For the prices you pay to get Michelin, you could have MUCH higher quality USA made tires on your truck.

That is total nonsense. The rubber compound is not harder. If you put a durometer on a Michelin and a Goodyear you will find them near the same. What makes Michelin's last longer is their ability to dissipate heat. Heat causes wear. Yes it is true that when properly maintained and not driven excessively that the tires can hit the end of their serviceable life and still have tread. That is a good problem to have. With lesser quality tires they do not get the chance to dry rot because the tread is gone in half the mileage.

One other fact that you have totally incorrect is that Michelin's are USA made. You may want to check your tires. Many Goodyears are made in Mexico. The vast majority of replacement Michelins are made in the USA.

 

[Sungod]

i fully agree on all points you make about the michelins. he argued that people get more miles out of michelins, and i asked him what load range he was looking at. it was E. its a harder ride, harder compound, and is more expensive. Ive looked at the at3, toyos, bfgs, and goodyears, and for me, the firestones just make the most sense

Additional incorrect assumptions. An E rated tire is not a harder ride, nor is it a harder compound. E rating is a reference to the load capacity of the tire. Meaning the maximum amount of weight a tire can hold at it's maximum PSI.

This is a change from the old ply rating where a tires capacity was determined by the number of plys. Obviously the more plys, the more harsh the ride. Technology and advanced materials have changed that which is why they use a load rating. Run a set of E's at 80psi on a 4000lbs vehicle and you would be lucky to keep your teeth in your head. Now drop that pressure down to 35 and the ride will be much nicer. It won't be quite as good as the same size tire in a C load range at the same PSI, but still not horrible.

 

[zopperman]

So up until my duratracs (GY) I ran michellin LTX MS2's. My dad has been running this tire for years.

He just sliced a sidewall on one at 102K on the tire and it still had tread left. He swapped the rear two tires out for new ones.

With 210k on the truck he's only had two sets of tires.

I had the LTX MS2 too, for 95k.

These are great, durable tires that last forever.

That being said, the GY is grippier and definitely a softer rubber.

I've only run C rated tires on my 4rs.

 

[WXman]

191 Complaints and Reviews about Michelin Tires

Also, yes the rubber is harder. That's why HT tires last forever and MT tires don't. More friction, but also much different rubber compounds.

 

[WXman]

i fully agree on all points you make about the michelins. he argued that people get more miles out of michelins, and i asked him what load range he was looking at. it was E. its a harder ride, harder compound, and is more expensive. Ive looked at the at3, toyos, bfgs, and goodyears, and for me, the firestones just make the most sense

A Michelin has a 70,000 mile warranty. A Cooper has a 65,000 mile warranty. The Michelin is $220 each. The Cooper is $150 each.

A 3rd grade math student could figure out that buying Michelin is a bad idea.

That's not counting the dry rotting, poor off-road performance, and the fact you're giving money to the French.

Old people only know Michelin because that's what they had. But in 2013 there are LOTS better options and much better tire technology on the market...for less money. I have family members that "won't buy anything but a Michelin". Tell me...what good does that "long life" do you when the sidewall cracks at 35,000 miles?

Y'all should scour the web and look in awe and amazement at how these ultra-expensive Michelins will fall apart in just a few years time, regardless of mileage.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27014561/srt/pa/pging/1/page/2.cfm

 

[Sungod]

A Michelin has a 70,000 mile warranty. A Cooper has a 65,000 mile warranty. The Michelin is $220 each. The Cooper is $150 each.

A 3rd grade math student could figure out that buying Michelin is a bad idea.

That's not counting the dry rotting, poor off-road performance, and the fact you're giving money to the French.

Old people only know Michelin because that's what they had. But in 2013 there are LOTS better options and much better tire technology on the market...for less money. I have family members that "won't buy anything but a Michelin". Tell me...what good does that "long life" do you when the sidewall cracks at 35,000 miles?

Again, more nonsense. A mileage warranty means nothing. That is not a guarantee that a tire will last that long. Thinking you are getting more for your money because the Cooper warranty is within 5k means that you are a sucker for advertising. Have you ever tried to file a claim on a tire? This will require more than 3rd grade math and reading some very wordy legal requirements. When you do the math you realize that the warranty is nothing more than a marketing ploy.

Technology. You are totally wrong again. Take a look at your cooper tire and tell me where the seam is. Now look at a Michelin. Notice the difference? It may be 2013, but cooper is still using clam shell moulds. What about material? Where does cooper source their raw materials? What about Michelin. You see there is more to a tire than meets the eye. Before you go running your mouth about a subject you know nothing about, you may want to do a little research then get back to me.

Lastly you make a statement about giving money to the French. This is the most ignorant statement of all. That is something and older person might say because there probably was a time that you could make statements like that, but in 2013 we live in a global market. For tires rubber comes from South America, Steel from the US or China. Textiles like Polyester, rayon, etc can come from inda. Those components are shipped to factories to be produced. Michelin has a huge plant in South Carolina that makes many of the passenger car tires sold in the US.

Further to that point is who owns Michelin? It is a publicly traded company so anyone can own it. You may even own Michelin if you have a 401K. So to make a statement that you are giving money to the French if you buy Michelin is completely ignorant.

 

[BCfish]

Michelins are a great tire if you never off road or see much snow at least their LT MS. My friends dad swore by Michelins that's all he used on him 3/4 ton GMC van and would get stuck easily in the snow and sometimes on gravel on level ground.. Now back then both me and his son drove Jeep GCs he ran the Michelins his dad bought him and I ran Yokohama Geolanders and he constantly had traction problems as well..This is my opinion and not a scientific fact Sungod so don't rip me a new one

 

[wnelax04sr5]

Additional incorrect assumptions. An E rated tire is not a harder ride, nor is it a harder compound. E rating is a reference to the load capacity of the tire. Meaning the maximum amount of weight a tire can hold at it's maximum PSI.

This is a change from the old ply rating where a tires capacity was determined by the number of plys. Obviously the more plys, the more harsh the ride. Technology and advanced materials have changed that which is why they use a load rating. Run a set of E's at 80psi on a 4000lbs vehicle and you would be lucky to keep your teeth in your head. Now drop that pressure down to 35 and the ride will be much nicer. It won't be quite as good as the same size tire in a C load range at the same PSI, but still not horrible.

so how do they accomplish a greater load capacity?

 

[ebg18t]

This thread went down an interesting global tangent...

 

[wnelax04sr5]

So up until my duratracs (GY) I ran michellin LTX MS2's. My dad has been running this tire for years.

He just sliced a sidewall on one at 102K on the tire and it still had tread left. He swapped the rear two tires out for new ones.

With 210k on the truck he's only had two sets of tires.

I had the LTX MS2 too, for 95k.

These are great, durable tires that last forever.

That being said, the GY is grippier and definitely a softer rubber.

I've only run C rated tires on my 4rs.

when i bought the truck with 94,000 it had its second set of tires, yoko geolander hts, when i got it they were dry rotted and cracking, and thats only gotten worse. if i towed more than i do now, id go with a higher load range, but once a month and under 4,000 lbs doesnt really make me feel like i need it. id rather have the mileage for the rest of the month. i understand the hype behind michelins, i just cant justify almost $300 difference for something i dont really need

 

[nevada]

when i was still busting tires for a living,
goodyears earned their name for "only being good for one year"


utter and total garbage.
thats been a few years ago, things may have changed. but it was enough to keep me from every using them.


i would much prefer my tires to rot off my vehicle, than to have them wear prematurely, or separate. which is what goodyears are known for.

 

[wnelax04sr5]

[MENTION=49]Sungod[/MENTION] [MENTION=92501]WXman[/MENTION] [MENTION=55855]zopperman[/MENTION] [MENTION=86678]ebg18t[/MENTION] the questions i originally had have all been answered, on the first page. i know everyone has strong feelings about tires, and all these arguments have been beat to death in this forum and countless others. Im reassured in my thoughts, so id prefer that we all just bury the hatchet instead of fighting each other over compounds, uneven wear, and whats made in america. so no more :deadhorse: and lets all be friends again :thanks:

 

[nevada]

so how do they accomplish a greater load capacity?

ply construcion, and material.

 

[zopperman]

[MENTION=49]Sungod[/MENTION] [MENTION=92501]WXman[/MENTION] [MENTION=55855]zopperman[/MENTION] [MENTION=86678]ebg18t[/MENTION] the questions i originally had have all been answered, on the first page. i know everyone has strong feelings about tires, and all these arguments have been beat to death in this forum and countless others. Im reassured in my thoughts, so id prefer that we all just bury the hatchet instead of fighting each other over compounds, uneven wear, and whats made in america. so no more :deadhorse: and lets all be friends again :thanks:

agreed
:closed_2:

 

[Sungod]

so how do they accomplish a greater load capacity?

Load capacity is achieved by the amount of air you can force into a tire. Through older technology they would just add more plies. That is why you will hear a E load range tire referred to as a 10 ply tire. You could literally count the number of plies to determine this. Now with improved engineering they can achieve that same 80psi capacity with fewer plies. The number of plies is stamped on the sidewall of each tire. You can count them yourself. The fewer plies reduces weight and improves the ride. Decreasing the unsprung weight is what helps eliminate the harshness in ride.

 

[Red]

Holy shit, sungod you need to relax man. I didn't say anything negative about michelin. You are coming off as not only a michelin fanboy but a bit of a dink as well.

You cant say Michelin is the be all end all of the tire industry. Yes, that have good tires but these days, most of the big companies have at least one great tire. Michelin doesn't have a great off road tire, but Goodyear does.

I'm not sure why people always gets so uppity when someone mentions a tire brand in a thread. Go have a beer or a wank or something, release your pent up frustration some other way.

I have michelins and they have about half the tread left but look, it doesn't hold air and I don't see any punctures. Still a great tire though.

 

[Sungod]

Holy shit, sungod you need to relax man. I didn't say anything negative about michelin. You are coming off as not only a michelin fanboy but a bit of a dink as well.

You cant say Michelin is the be all end all of the tire industry. Yes, that have good tires but these days, most of the big companies have at least one great tire. Michelin doesn't have a great off road tire, but Goodyear does.

I'm not sure why people always gets so uppity when someone mentions a tire brand in a thread. Go have a beer or a wank or something, release your pent up frustration some other way.

I have michelins and they have about half the tread left but look, it doesn't hold air and I don't see any punctures. Still a great tire though.

So you ask a question and don't like the answer? Not sure I get your logic there. There is nothing uppity about quality. Facts are facts. I just point them out. Your better question should be why people make statements on subjects they know nothing about.

Let me help you out with your flat. You have a hole in it. Air doesn't vanish. Ever notice outside of a tire shop that they have a tank of water (they may keep them inside in Canada). They put tires in there to look for air bubbles to locate the hole because rarely can you see a hole with your eyes. Looking at that groove you have from driving it flat, you may want to replace it before it blows out and you blame the tire.

 

[RonMAIDEN]

I say buy whatever tire works for you. I like Michelin when it comes to sports car tires but not much in the way of agressive truck tires has steered me to the Duratracs and after 4 years and 30k miles they are wearing nice and really handle wet weather very well and don't have a complaint about them.

 

[Red]

So you ask a question and don't like the answer? Not sure I get your logic there. There is nothing uppity about quality. Facts are facts. I just point them out. Your better question should be why people make statements on subjects they know nothing about.

Let me help you out with your flat. You have a hole in it. Air doesn't vanish. Ever notice outside of a tire shop that they have a tank of water (they may keep them inside in Canada). They put tires in there to look for air bubbles to locate the hole because rarely can you see a hole with your eyes. Looking at that groove you have from driving it flat, you may want to replace it before it blows out and you blame the tire.

You're very presumptuous, and quite obviously full of yourself. Your user name seems to suit your ego quite well based on the comments I see you leave all over this forum talking down to people like you're some expert in all subjects. Do you even own a 4Runner? I can't recall ever seeing a picture, just a lot of smart ass comments.

Oh, air doesn't vanish? I thought maybe my tire air expired or maybe my tire fluid got low and over heated the rubber, that happens right?

There is no groove in my tire, that is the sidewall (the side section of the tire), the tpms (tire pressure monitoring system) came on last time I drove it and over the past few days it drained all of the air out, so nice try in your attempt to insult my common sense but you'll have to try a lot harder than that.

Also, tire shops use soapy water to find air leaks. You see, because the air pushing through the hole comes into contact with the soapy water, which in turn creates bubbles filled with the air that is escaping from your tire. You can always google it if you need help.

See, I can talk to you like you're a 6 year old too. Normally I'd ignore such ignorance and blatant trolling, but I'm tired of seeing your remarks all over the forum.

I stick by my original advice, go find something better to do with your time and stop bringing your shit attitude around here.

Good day.

aaaaaaaand I'm done with this conversation. Don't bother cluttering the thread with a response, I won't read it. :bigok: