Towing experiences with your 5th Generation

[1996_Valencia_Owen]

I agree. The engine is barely adequate for towing purposes. Even throwing on several hundred lbs of modifications (bumpers, winches, racks, armor), this 4.0l v6 is just not the type of engine that does well when loaded down. You can of course regear for heavier weights/towing, which I'm sure some owners have done, but you're still dealing with an engine/transmission combo that is neither efficient nor well-tuned to towing heavy loads.

The underlying platform is very well built IMHO, and easily set up for towing or offroad purposes. Toyota just needs to find a better engine to put into it.

You're on meth, and suck at engineering, bruh.

The SMALLER V6 with less peak and low-end torque in the Tacoma is rated to tow 6,400 lbs purely on the fact that MOST modern vehicles have way more power and torque than they need to (you should see how much weight people tow at 55mph in the 3rd world with tiny 4 cylinders without dying for decades), and these simple points:

Towing capacity is mostly related not to torque or rpms, or any of that bs, but:

-Wheelbase
-Rear suspension stiffness
-Curb weight.

The end.

 

[Dalko43]

You're on meth, and suck at engineering, bruh.

The SMALLER V6 with less peak and low-end torque in the Tacoma is rated to tow 6,400 lbs purely on the fact that MOST modern vehicles have way more power and torque than they need to (you should see how much weight people tow at 55mph in the 3rd world with tiny 4 cylinders without dying for decades), and these simple points:

Towing capacity is mostly related not to torque or rpms, or any of that bs, but:

-Wheelbase
-Rear suspension stiffness
-Curb weight.

The end.

Yeah, and that SMALLER v6 can only deliver max torque for towing those 6,400lbs at a screaming 4,600 RPM....even if I was high on meth, I'd rather not tow that way.

Just because you can tow with that type of engine, doesn't mean you'd want to. These naturally aspirated gasoline engines are not well-suited to towing...that's my own assessment after having used the 4runner extensively for towing; you don't have to agree with that.

Those smaller 4 cylinders that tow massive weights overseas are:
A) usually diesels which are inherently better suite for such work.
and
B) in violation of safety regulations and/or common sense. People do all sorts of stupid things with their vehicles overseas...that doesn't validate the capabilities of their vehicles, rather it just shows how people tend to run on blind luck.

And no bruh...towing capacity is related to engine output, in addition to other factors you brought up. OEM engineers state that all the time...so please take the time to research your argument before your ridicule someone else's.

 

[1996_Valencia_Owen]

Yeah, and that SMALLER v6 can only deliver max torque for towing those 6,400lbs at a screaming 4,600 RPM....even if I was high on meth, I'd rather not tow that way.

Just because you can tow with that type of engine, doesn't mean you'd want to. These naturally aspirated gasoline engines are not well-suited to towing...that's my own assessment after having used the 4runner extensively for towing; you don't have to agree with that.

Those smaller 4 cylinders that tow massive weights overseas are:
A) usually diesels which are inherently better suite for such work.
and
B) in violation of safety regulations and/or common sense. People do all sorts of stupid things with their vehicles overseas...that doesn't validate the capabilities of their vehicles, rather it just shows how people tend to run on blind luck.

3rd gen 4runner, 190 hp, 220 tq, no vvt, 4 speed auto, weak as hell.

Rated to tow 5,000 lbs.

Supremely durable engine.

I think the sooner you recognize that rpm (short of redline) has no relevancy to durability, and that your opinion is just purely subjective, the better, I think.

If you want something better for towing, get it. But don't try to take it on 4x4/overlanding trips unless you want to then start complaining about the stiff ride, lack of ability to handle narrow trails, and bad gas mileage.

 

[Dalko43]

Is there some evidence that 4K rpm is a terrible rpm to touch now and then in the mountains while towing? Literally billions of miles on Toyota car and truck engines would disagree...

Well besides killing your the 4runner's already crappy fuel economy and creating a lot of cabin noise, that type of high-RPM driving will accelerate engine wear.

It's not that the 4runner's 4.0l v6 can't tow, it's that there are other engine types better suited for such work. A donkey can run around a track, but that doesn't mean it's the best animal to win a race.

 

[Dalko43]

3rd gen 4runner, 190 hp, 220 tq, no vvt, 4 speed auto, weak as hell.

Rated to tow 5,000 lbs.

Supremely durable engine.

I think the sooner you recognize that rpm (short of redline) has no relevancy to durability, and that your opinion is just purely subjective, the better, I think.

Again I ask: even if it is rated for 5k lbs towing, would you want to tow that much day-in-day-out with that kind of engine?

Also: if you have a 4.0v6 towing at or near max capacity for 100k miles and compare it to an engine that was not towing for the same mileage, do you truly believe that the two would have the same amount of engine, or transmission, wear?

Towing is an important aspect for many who offroad and overland. You start throwing more weight on the 4runner, whether it be for mods or for hauling more weight, the engine's efficiency plummets and the onroad manners are less than stellar.

If you want something better for towing, get it. But don't try to take it on 4x4/overlanding trips unless you want to then start complaining about the stiff ride, lack of ability to handle narrow trails, and bad gas mileage.

Other truck makers, like Ford and GM, are offering engine types with better towing performance and better efficiency. Toyota is relying on an engine design that has been in use since 2002, one that gets bad gas mileage even when its not towing.

The 4.0l v6 is not fun to tow with and doesn't do well when loaded down. It's an opinion for sure, but one I have formulated after driving this 4.0l v6 for many years.

 

[1996_Valencia_Owen]

Again I ask: even if it is rated for 5k lbs towing, would you want to tow that much day-in-day-out with that kind of engine?

Also: if you have a 4.0v6 towing at or near max capacity for 100k miles and compare it to an engine that was not towing for the same mileage, do you truly believe that the two would have the same amount of engine, or transmission, wear?

Towing is an important aspect for many who offroad and overland. You start throwing more weight on the 4runner, whether it be for mods or for hauling more weight, the engine's efficiency plummets and the onroad manners are less than stellar.



Other truck makers, like Ford and GM, are offering engine types with better towing performance and better efficiency. Toyota is relying on an engine design that has been in use since 2002, one that gets bad gas mileage even when its not towing.

The 4.0l v6 is not fun to tow with and doesn't do well when loaded down. It's an opinion for sure, but one I have formulated after driving this 4.0l v6 for many years.

Show the forum 1 ounce of proof for any of your claims.

 

[teotwaki]

Towing is an important aspect for many who offroad and overland. You start throwing more weight on the 4runner, whether it be for mods or for hauling more weight, the engine's efficiency plummets and the onroad manners are less than stellar.

I disagree because you just don't see that many people who actually offroad/overland with a trailer. I've led groups of 15 or so on trips and might have one other person with a trailer. Trailers have gone way up in popularity since I started in 2010 but when offroading I don't see 10 or 20 trailers on a trip, I see maybe two or three. I also see lots of people who buy them and soon sell them off due to low use, but not so many that have been towing the same one as long as I have.

I would like to see another 4WD SUV that you can load up and see engine efficiency go up. If you take any other platform and add weight and mods the mileage will go down.

Other truck makers, like Ford and GM, are offering engine types with better towing performance and better efficiency. Toyota is relying on an engine design that has been in use since 2002, one that gets bad gas mileage even when its not towing.

Apples and Coconuts. What platforms are they offering them in? The Explorer has been soccer mom'ed to death. The F-150 is huge in comparison to the 4Runner and when you perform a base comparison it doesn't tow any more than the SR5. To get 7K towing you have to pay $7k - $10k more for a different engine such as the 4WD SuperCrew 6.5' Box XLT with a 5 liter. Otherwise you are stuck with their small 3.5L.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/ca...s-toyota_4runner_2017?trims=40058295,40058899

The 4.0l v6 is not fun to tow with and doesn't do well when loaded down. It's an opinion for sure, but one I have formulated after driving this 4.0l v6 for many years.

I drove a 4th Gen for 13 years and now have a 5th Gen. After 8 years of towing my offroad trailer I feel I have plenty of experience to back up my opinion that the 4Runner does quite well. I also have a ton of pictures in my blog to illustrate that I have heavily loaded up the trailer, the 4Runner's interior and the roof rack and gone out to numerous remote and rugged locations. When I sold it at 239,000 miles the tranny, engine and transfer case were untouched, never cracked open, bone stock and working great.
That is why I bought myself a 5th gen.

Honestly I'm sorry that you hate your 4Runner so much. You sound like someone trapped in a bad relationship. Just sell the 4R and buy the F150 or whatever it is that will make you happier.

 

[Off2Mtns]

Is there some evidence that 4K rpm is a terrible rpm to touch now and then in the mountains while towing? Literally billions of miles on Toyota car and truck engines would disagree...

Also, I don't know how much you expect a 4,700 lb SUV to actually be able to tow? I can't think of many cars that can tow more that aren't significantly heavier themselves.

Last, you can manually shift on grades with the 5th gen transmission, so not sure what eco mode has to do with it.

Yo Val, what gives... You Mad Bro??

I'd be curious to hear your towing experience with the 5th gen and at what elevation you tow? No offense, but as best I can tell you have a couple thousand miles on a 3 mos old 2018. Have you pulled anything with it yet?

I live at 6k ft elevation and all travels are up from here. Most of the mtn passes around here are long, hard pulls for 15 miles or more up to and over 10k ft elevation. I pulled our trailer 4 times last year, our first year with our 2016, and was unimpressed, but I'm a realist and it was about as expected.

Looks like you are coming from a 3rd gen? I bet the 5th gen feels like a powerhouse comparatively. I, however, am coming from a very torquey 2nd gen Xterra, also with a similarly rated 4.0L, but what a great engine and tranny combo. I towed with that for 5 years and was always impressed with its performance. But, alas, lots of problems led us to the 4Runner and I like it. I knew what I was getting into and was willing to live with the lackluster towing performance.

Other debate aside, towing at 4k+ RPM for extended periods is just flat out tiring as the engine is constantly screaming at you. Re: Eco mode, I was referring to Toyota programming the ECM to shift at low RPM, not the "light green light". Manual shifting is a given.

It's not that the 4runner's 4.0l v6 can't tow, it's that there are other engine types better suited for such work. A donkey can run around a track, but that doesn't mean it's the best animal to win a race.

^^Great analogy, LMAO.

 

[1996_Valencia_Owen]

Yo Val, what gives... You Mad Bro??

I'd be curious to hear your towing experience with the 5th gen and at what elevation you tow? No offense, but as best I can tell you have a couple thousand miles on a 3 mos old 2018. Have you pulled anything with it yet?

I live at 6k ft elevation and all travels are up from here. Most of the mtn passes around here are long, hard pulls for 15 miles or more up to and over 10k ft elevation. I pulled our trailer 4 times last year, our first year with our 2016, and was unimpressed, but I'm a realist and it was about as expected.

Looks like you are coming from a 3rd gen? I bet the 5th gen feels like a powerhouse comparatively. I, however, am coming from a very torquey 2nd gen Xterra, also with a similarly rated 4.0L, but what a great engine and tranny combo. I towed with that for 5 years and was always impressed with its performance. But, alas, lots of problems led us to the 4Runner and I like it. I knew what I was getting into and was willing to live with the lackluster towing performance.

Other debate aside, towing at 4k+ RPM for extended periods is just flat out tiring as the engine is constantly screaming at you. Re: Eco mode, I was referring to Toyota programming the ECM to shift at low RPM, not the "light green light". Manual shifting is a given.



^^Great analogy, LMAO.

Wait a sec Coloradbruh,

You talk shizor about a truck that gets 280 hp and 289 lbft on 91 octane, then go reminiscing about the great towing power of a Nissan that had 19 hp and 8 tq less (and probably less torque everywhere under the curve), has one less gear in the tranny, a lower final drive ratio, and the same or worse aero?

I've towed with the 3rd gen (also rated at 5,000 lbs, so imagine how much easier it is in the 5th gen). Whether or not it felt great (it felt decent for only 220 ft-lbs), the implications of both it and a number of other similar-wheelbase SUVs with way less power and weaker transmissions all being able to pull similar weight say a lot about how easily the 5th gen can tow.

I suspect those having trouble towing have:

-Larger tires, reducing the torque at the wheel compared to stock, while adding a bit of extra rotating weight.
-A lot of mods, in the form of giant steel weights. Ie, it's not Toyota that decided 100 lb sliders, 150 lbs of rear bumper and swingout, 150 lbs of brick-aero front bumper, and 80 lbs of brick-aero roofrack was a good idea before even starting to consider towing.

Add to that the fact that most broskis here think blocking much-needed radiator space (for cooling) with every kind of hidden LED bar, winch, and steel plate bumper imaginable, and you've got the recipe for seriously reduced towing performance.

The ONLY point I can grant you is the loudness thing. I do think there's a psychological link between an engine being loud and someone thinking they're going to hurt it. It's a shame, because that's not the case. But I've noticed this with cars. If you put headers on that barely make a power difference, they sure seem to make it faster just by sound alone. So I get you there. But if you trust in the engineering, it works fine.

I sincerely wish you luck in finding a vehicle to fit your needs. But it seems like you two are all bark and *****, and no bite. Complain all you want on the forums about the SUVs you bought, but I'll see you and wave 10 years from now when you're still driving them and can't bring yourselves to go get coal-rollin' duallies to tow your 5th wheels because you know how hilarious it'd be trying to pull all that unnecessary crap up the John Bull trail

 

[teotwaki]

My old 4.0L 4th Gen easily handled lots of steep trails while towing at altitudes way past 6,000'

Towing and camping at 10,000' at Coyote Flat
Sun To The North: Expedition Trailer At Coyote Flat

Near Copper Mountain at 8,000' in the Sierras
Sun To The North: 2011 Expedition Trailer Trip to Bodie Ghost Town and the Sierras

Going past Cerro Gordo to the Saline Salt Tram Cabin at 8700'
Sun To The North: The Inyo Range Salt Tram Expedition, September 2010 - - - Part 4

Mazourka Peak 9400'
Sun To The North: Exploring Papoose Flats with my Expedition Trailer, May 2012

 

[Off2Mtns]

=/=

Guys, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[teotwaki]

Fixed it for ya' :becky: That much wind resistance will kill power and MPGs on any vehicle.

I don't see how only 400 pounds of trailer tongue weight could cause so much suspension squat. It would be good to order correct springs that match the demand. My rear springs were sized for the additional weight of the trailer and other gear and it rides very well. When my 4R is unloaded the rear sits pretty tall but I can live with that if my towing experience is good. Are you stil running stock springs, a spacer and airbags?

Also, a trip to the weight scales with your setup could be an eye opener.

Guys, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Lifted vehicle, sliders and steel skid plates, 300 pounds of drawers and gear in the back, vehicle nose up in the air creating more wind resistance and more rolling resistance on rear tires, trailer with high wind resistance but the 4Runner is at fault? That's where I disagree.

 

[WVhillbilly]

The only thing better than a towing thread is an oil thread. :vader:

 

[e60ral]

reminder for people who keep posting tow ratings for 3rd or 4th gen 4runners - those ratings were pre-SAE J2807 so you can't compare them (the rating would be much lower under J2807)

 

[Jetboy]

reminder for people who keep posting tow ratings for 3rd or 4th gen 4runners - those ratings were pre-SAE J2807 so you can't compare them (the rating would be much lower under J2807)

I towed a 9000lb trailer with my 3rd gen... with no trailer brakes! No. It didn't do very well. I also hitched up my FJ40 on a car hauler. Also - didn't do very well. Both times were just short trips to see what it would be like. The heavy one was with a big skid steer on an equipment trailer I needed to move a mile or so down the road.

Compared to the 3rd gen - the 5th gen tows like a freight train. But it's not an ideal tow vehicle. Everything about it is wrong. High COG. Low power. Small wheel bearings in the rear. Narrow axle. Relatively light duty receiver.

But - IMO 5000lbs is well within the capability of the 5th gen. The weight is no problem. The problem is wind resistance of larger boxes. It really struggles at highway speeds with a lot of wind resistance. I have a very small camp trailer that kills the mpg and power at higher speeds. On the flip side I also have towed a hydraulic dump trailer that I was hauling 2 yards per trip of washed rock plus another 2000 ish in trailer weight. No problems at all on the highway.

What would really benefit towing is lower gears. I have also towed my same trailer behind my RX350. In all honesty it tows better. The reason is 4.40 diff gearing and a smoother engine. In the RX when you're cruising at 3500rpms, the only way you'd ever know is by looking at the tach. You can't feel a thing. 3500rpms in the 4runner feels like it's screaming. I'd gladly trade the 4.0 for the new 3.5 version for towing. Yeah, it'll run higher rpms more often, but it doesn't matter if it's well balanced and quiet.

If I started towing heavy things on a regular basis - weekly or more - I'd buy another vehicle. My parents shop truck is a GM 2500 with an 8.1L gas V8 and still gets better mileage towing bigger trailers than the 4runner. It's a 2001 and has auto headlights (WTF toyota??). It's a rolling piece of GM shit. But it tows heavy stuff pretty well.

 

[Dalko43]

I disagree because you just don't see that many people who actually offroad/overland with a trailer. I've led groups of 15 or so on trips and might have one other person with a trailer. Trailers have gone way up in popularity since I started in 2010 but when offroading I don't see 10 or 20 trailers on a trip, I see maybe two or three. I also see lots of people who buy them and soon sell them off due to low use, but not so many that have been towing the same one as long as I have.

A) I do see a lot of people towing trailers now for overlanding purposes. In fact, you yourself tow a trailer and even seem to acknowledge that it has become a growing trend. Moroever a lot of non-overlanders still use their 4runner for towing utility and boat trailers...people tend to use their 4runners.

B) You load up your 4runner with armor, winch, bumpers, extra gear, and you're still putting your engine to work in a similar way that towing does. The 4runner's v6 is just not well-suited to high work load situations; it will get the job done, but there are other platforms that will get the job done even better (refer to my donkey analogy).

I would like to see another 4WD SUV that you can load up and see engine efficiency go up. If you take any other platform and add weight and mods the mileage will go down.

Well no one was arguing that an engine's efficiency can go up when under load...I'm not sure why you came up with that strawman argument.

There are other platforms that can tow and haul gear without seeing as much of a hit in efficiency (the diesel Colorado would be the most direct comparison to the 4runner in that regard). Moreover, there are full-sized pickup trucks that get about the same, or better, fuel efficiency than the 4runner when loaded or unloaded (the ecoboost F-150 and the ecodiesel Ram 1500 are two examples).

Apples and Coconuts. What platforms are they offering them in? The Explorer has been soccer mom'ed to death. The F-150 is huge in comparison to the 4Runner and when you perform a base comparison it doesn't tow any more than the SR5. To get 7K towing you have to pay $7k - $10k more for a different engine such as the 4WD SuperCrew 6.5' Box XLT with a 5 liter. Otherwise you are stuck with their small 3.5L.

This is quite laughable what you're doing here.
Comparing a GM Colorado to a 4runner is "apples to coconuts?" I get that one is a pickup and one is a SUV, but we're talking about platforms with similar footprints, similar engine types, and which are bought by similar customers.

The F-150, with the 3.5l v6 ecoboost or v8, tows far more than the 4runner. Moreover, the version of the ecoboost that will eventually be put into the Ranger will likely far outpace the 4runner, and Tacoma, when it comes to fuel efficiency and torque delivery.

Honestly I'm sorry that you hate your 4Runner so much. You sound like someone trapped in a bad relationship. Just sell the 4R and buy the F150 or whatever it is that will make you happier.

This is what I find so annoying about the cult that is Toyota ownership: if you mention even one critique of the vehicle or the company, you're labeled a Toyota hater by the fanboys. I love Toyota and I love my 4runner, otherwise I wouldn't have bought one. The 4runner is reliable and rock solid in all regards, even the engine, despite its other faults.

The problem is Toyota is way too conservative and they're relying on engine/transmission setup's that have been around, in one form or another, since 2002. I get about 19-20 mpg in realistic highway driving with my mostly stock 4runner. F-150's can get 1-2 mpg better than that, despite their bigger size. Similar-sized Colorado's can get 10 mpg better.

Toyota's gasoline engines may get the job done, but they are not keeping up with the competition when it comes to efficiency or torque delivery, both of which have become increasingly important to new 4x4 owners.

 

[1996_Valencia_Owen]

A) I do see a lot of people towing trailers now for overlanding purposes. In fact, you yourself tow a trailer and even seem to acknowledge that it has become a growing trend. Moroever a lot of non-overlanders still use their 4runner for towing utility and boat trailers...people tend to use their 4runners.

B) You load up your 4runner with armor, winch, bumpers, extra gear, and you're still putting your engine to work in a similar way that towing does. The 4runner's v6 is just not well-suited to high work load situations; it will get the job done, but there are other platforms that will get the job done even better (refer to my donkey analogy).




Well no one was arguing that an engine's efficiency can go up when under load...I'm not sure why you came up with that strawman argument.

There are other platforms that can tow and haul gear without seeing as much of a hit in efficiency (the diesel Colorado would be the most direct comparison to the 4runner in that regard). Moreover, there are full-sized pickup trucks that get about the same, or better, fuel efficiency than the 4runner when loaded or unloaded (the ecoboost F-150 and the ecodiesel Ram 1500 are two examples).




This is quite laughable what you're doing here.
Comparing a GM Colorado to a 4runner is "apples to coconuts?" I get that one is a pickup and one is a SUV, but we're talking about platforms with similar footprints, similar engine types, and which are bought by similar customers.

The F-150, with the 3.5l v6 ecoboost or v8, tows far more than the 4runner. Moreover, the version of the ecoboost that will eventually be put into the Ranger will likely far outpace the 4runner, and Tacoma, when it comes to fuel efficiency and torque delivery.




This is what I find so annoying about the cult that is Toyota ownership: if you mention even one critique of the vehicle or the company, you're labeled a Toyota hater by the fanboys. I love Toyota and I love my 4runner, otherwise I wouldn't have bought one. The 4runner is reliable and rock solid in all regards, even the engine, despite its other faults.

The problem is Toyota is way too conservative and they're relying on engine/transmission setup's that have been around, in one form or another, since 2002. I get about 19-20 mpg in realistic highway driving with my mostly stock 4runner. F-150's can get 1-2 mpg better than that, despite their bigger size. Similar-sized Colorado's can get 10 mpg better.

Toyota's gasoline engines may get the job done, but they are not keeping up with the competition when it comes to efficiency or torque delivery, both of which have become increasingly important to new 4x4 owners.

Dude, you're obsessed. You're posting on several other threads, always about "the 4.0L gasser".

Go for a hike or something. It's a machine, bruh. Besides, if you don't like it, sell it. Don't ***** about conflicting things like, "Oh it's not radical, but I love how reliable (ie, a consequence of conservative development) it is!"

And bulls***. No 4-door Colorados are driving around with the V6 and 4x4 getting 30mpg in mixed driving. Get real.

 

[Dalko43]

Dude, you're obsessed. You're posting on several other threads, always about "the 4.0L gasser".

Go for a hike or something. It's a machine, bruh. Besides, if you don't like it, what the heck are you doing on a 4runner forum?

I do like it; I just want to see it improved in certain regards.

A few people here have posted their opinions regarding the 4runner's v6....I disagree with those opinions....such debates are not unusual on an internet forum bruh.

 

[Dalko43]

Don't ***** about conflicting things like, "Oh it's not radical, but I love how reliable (ie, a consequence of conservative development) it is!"

And bulls***. No 4-door Colorados are driving around with the V6 and 4x4 getting 30mpg in mixed driving. Get real.

I was referring to the diesel variant. Remember, early on when I talked about how other companies are using turbo gasoline and turbodiesels while Toyota still relies on naturally aspirated v6's?

For a California guy who uses the word "bruh" far too often, you don't seem all that chill about this.

 

[1996_Valencia_Owen]

I was referring to the diesel variant. Remember, early on when I talked about how other companies are using turbo gasoline and turbodiesels while Toyota still relies on naturally aspirated v6's?

For a California guy who uses the word "bruh" far too often, you don't seem all that chill about this.

Sarcasm, Bruhhhhhhhhhh.

You won't see Toyota bring a turbodiesel to the US market. They're slowing down in Europe, too.

I too like options, so I can't fault you for wanting the idea of a diesel. But the reality has its pros and cons as well.

They cost more to maintain, no company can seem to make them meet emissions without cheating a lot, and the fuel they use is less commonplace and taxed a lot more here.

If you really want a diesel, tho, look at the Wrangler or the Colorado ZR2. I actually was obsessing over the ZR2 for awhile, but then I saw that folks are not getting great mpg with them even in stock form with the diesel. Something like 21-22mpg, for fuel that costs 10%+ more than gas, just made it a wash.

The rear seat legroom is also limited, and the durability is unknown at this point.

Now... if Toyota could make even a gas-turbo at something like 2.5-3.0L, with something like 250hp, 335tq on 87 octane, with 22mpg mixed, and we could have the (impossible) ability to tell the future and know it'd be reliable for the next 15 years... then I might be on board with you.

Unf real life doesn't work that way, and I suspect any R&D money Toyota has right now is going to a) autonomous car tech, b) hybrids, and c) electrics.