Toyota owners seem to be a fickle group

[SpeedyKevin]

Yep, I get what you're saying. Makes sense to me, even if my understanding is limited.

Here's something I think would be really cool and helpful - being able to have occasional forums with Toyota 4Runner engineering and marketing. For example, the 5-speed vs 6-speed question - thinking about it objectively, there have to be real and good reasons why they settled on the drivetrain they did. Contrary to the opinions of many on here, they didn't do it just to piss people off, or to be cheap (although it needs to be accepted that saving money is a real and valid reason), or because they're lazy (really, people think this), or because they "don't know how". Seriously? Most manufacturers know how to do just about everything. They simply have to weigh every piece and process and fit it into an attractive package at an attractive price that they can ALSO profit from.

Did the 6AT exist when the 150 platform came to be? The car is pretty old now and is still selling well so I doubt they had much incentive to make any changes (last big change was cosmetic with the face lift). Now if the 6th gen came out with the same A750...oh boy. lol

 

[ryguytheman]

The Bronco was kind of a slap to the head to me to wake up and quit making excusing for Toyota. I don't need a turbo 6, 10 speed, 95:1 crawl ratio, dual lockers, and 35s - I want them, but not necessary. However - annual new paint color that's standard on the Rav4 color chart and a cooler in the back isn't enough anymore.

The more I think about it, the more pathetic it seems. The Bronco Unveiling sure is an eye opener. Especially when you look at the TRD Pro and its pricing.
Top of the line off-road trim package? Can't even fit 33" tires... Hell, larger tires should come on the Pro from the factory.

I hope Toyota rises to the challenge. The light-bulb, skid plate lettering, and paint color updates won't keep people happy, the 6th gen needs to be a home run. Hope they're taking notes in Japan. The substantial buzz around the Bronco is all the proof you need, people at least want the option to build a bad ass off-roader without having to tear their car apart. And the off-road trim packages at the very least should have some of these features.

 

[SpeedyKevin]

The more I think about it, the more pathetic it seems. The Bronco Unveiling sure is an eye opener. Especially when you look at the TRD Pro and its pricing.
Top of the line off-road trim package? Can't even fit 33" tires...

I hope Toyota rises to the challenge. The light-bulb, skid plate lettering, and paint color updates won't keep people happy, the 6th gen needs to be a home run. Hope they're taking notes in Japan.

You can't forget about the grill and valance!

 

[mteolus]

Toyota probably is thinking along the lines that the 4Runner doesn't have any direct competitor at the moment. The Wrangler and Bronco are not. The closest thing to a competitor is now gone, the Nissan XTerra. Maybe Ford should make a Bronco XL to compete with the 4Runner. Just an extra long Bronco 4-door so it has the room that some like or need.

 

[thennen]

I really don't think Toyota is napping at all. If you think about it, they really nailed it with the 4Runner. Gen5 has 10 years on it and it's still by itself it its niche.

Personally, I expect the next one to be great, but I don't think it'll check every box enough to silence the complainers. It's not aimed at the Wrangler market today, so why start now? I think it'll be more capable and more powerful. I think it'll be better overall, I also think it'll fit where it's marketed. Time will tell, though.

 

[Jetboy]

Yep, I get what you're saying. Makes sense to me, even if my understanding is limited.

Here's something I think would be really cool and helpful - being able to have occasional forums with Toyota 4Runner engineering and marketing. For example, the 5-speed vs 6-speed question - thinking about it objectively, there have to be real and good reasons why they settled on the drivetrain they did. Contrary to the opinions of many on here, they didn't do it just to piss people off, or to be cheap (although it needs to be accepted that saving money is a real and valid reason), or because they're lazy (really, people think this), or because they "don't know how". Seriously? Most manufacturers know how to do just about everything. They simply have to weigh every piece and process and fit it into an attractive package at an attractive price that they can ALSO profit from.

It's hard to really think of a good reason to stick with the 5AT. The best answer I can come up with is that they already had the tooling at the time to make 3.73 front diffs and didn't want to invest in 4.56 front diffs or for some reason. But they currently do sell the 6AT and v6 combo in other market in the essentially the same vehicle. So I really don't know why.

I think there's a good argument that the 6th gear sucks with the v6 and 3.73 diffs. I'd agree with that. Just like in the Tacoma. The Taco should have paired the 6 speed with the 4.30 diffs in the MT model and it would be a much better truck to drive. The 1GR doesn't have enough power at low rpms like the diesels do to use 6th gear with high axle ratios. But as of 2010 Toyota was already producing 4.56 ratio 8.2 diff gears for the 4cyl model. No reason they couldn't cut a 4.56 ratio front clamshell gear.

If I had a better answer - I'd take a shot at it. But I really don't. I can't explain why they'd use the 6AT. The A760 was first used in a production model in 2003. So it had already been in lexus models for 7 years by the time the 5th gen was released. And it was used in the lexus GX460 in 2010. So obviously the design and fitment were already done.

My best guess is that the 5AT version uses about 3 less solenoids than the 6AT in the valve body and that saves around $5. $5* over a million 5th gens = $5 million in profits. So I guess there's some value there.

 

[thennen]

I'm in the mailing business. Not the USPS. But yes, a shrinking market. Regardless, similar theory when talking about big numbers. I've had clients that send more than 20 million pieces of mail per month. A one-cent-per-piece saving in postage amounts to $200k, or $1.2 million a year. They do pay attention to that.

 

[08TxRunner]

Toyota probably is thinking along the lines that the 4Runner doesn't have any direct competitor at the moment. The Wrangler and Bronco are not. The closest thing to a competitor is now gone, the Nissan XTerra. Maybe Ford should make a Bronco XL to compete with the 4Runner. Just an extra long Bronco 4-door so it has the room that some like or need.

And that is exactly why Toyota is not meeting the challenge.

 

[TRD PANTHER]

You Can't Always Get What You Want - YouTube

 

[AZ Craig]

You Can't Always Get What You Want - YouTube

And when you own a late 5th generation 4Runner:

The Rolling Stones Satisfaction (I Cant Get No) - YouTube

 

[RichinRidgewood]

I'm assuming you've never actually taken your 4Runner off road? Or any vehicle? Get back to us when you try it. You'll probably understand a little more.

Also - I'm pretty sure you didn't actually understand the light info on the tacoma forum. OEM HID lights are quite different from aftermarket HID or LED bulbs in halogen projectors that were being compared. We're talking about OEM lighting updates. Not slapping a cheap HID bulb in a halogen projector housing.

Internet tuff guys, facepalm.

 

[RichinRidgewood]

He's not waving His hands......it's FACTS! He is dead-on as to the benefit with no downside as the trans is already a reliable unit that is not being used to it's potential for the lack of $50 worth of guts inside. Better mpg would be a natural benefit of the increased torque through gearing but really it's the flexibility the gearing in the axle AND trans bring to the platform that would benefit larger tires and drive ability . Win Win for little investment. If the 1GR were tuned for a little less HP and more low and mid torque it would really improve the drivetrain IMO.

Facts would involve numbers and analysis. This, crap about 5sp or 6sp, is like a bunch of drunks in a northern Wisconsin bar and JB will try to ride his snowmobile home when he get thrown out and end up in a ditch.

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Facts would involve numbers and analysis. This, crap about 5sp or 6sp, is like a bunch of drunks in a northern Wisconsin bar and JB will try to ride his snowmobile home when he get thrown out and end up in a ditch.

When you consider that the 5G4R doesn't come with a 6AT, its little bit hard to do any testing to acquire numbers/data.

That being said, can you refute the statements made by Jetboy (or any others)? Though they can't get actual numbers from the 4runner, the gear ratio math makes sense.

If you just want to argue for the sake of it, then go at it but some folks here are having a pretty interesting and insightful conversation (both sides). Let's not detract from that conversation like you did with your SFA thread.

 

[RichinRidgewood]

When you consider that the 5G4R doesn't come with a 6AT, its little bit hard to do any testing to acquire numbers/data.

That being said, can you refute the statements made by Jetboy (or any others)? Though they can't get actual numbers from the 4runner, the gear ratio math makes sense.

If you just want to argue for the sake of it, then go at it but some folks here are having a pretty interesting and insightful conversation (both sides). Let's not detract from that conversation like you did with your SFA thread.

Ok there Speedy. I would trust that Toyota did its homework before I would trust some dude on a forum waving his hands in the air like he had too much to drink at a bar that looks like a log cabin.

BTW did the Bronco come out with a SFA? Nope. Are they going to sell a bunch ? Probably. Check. Solid Front Axle Fasincation Disorder is real and is treatable.

 

[ravens_wood]

Im on that reliability camp, i love the finer things in life forsure but when it comes to luxury and tech in cars i have no interest in repairing it or having it always taken to a dealer for a scan.
My three Toyota (92 Previa, 03 Matrix and 08 T4R Sport) were and are all rock solid.

4Runner is in the shop for some body work from a gutless jackass who side swiped my parked truck and ran.

My rental is a new Durango. I could not believe the verbal and physical assault the Durango placed on me when I parallel parked. The sucker wouldn't stop yelling at me with beeps and the auto-braking caused me to crap myself. I thought I hit or broke something. The nanny features for clueless suburban drivers SUCK!

Give me back my simpleton 4Runner!!!!

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Ok there Speedy. I would trust that Toyota did its homework before I would trust some dude on a forum waving his hands in the air like he had too much to drink at a bar that looks like a log cabin.

BTW did the Bronco come out with a SFA? Nope. Are they going to sell a bunch ? Probably. Check. Solid Front Axle Fasincation Disorder is real and is treatable.

My question still remains, can you refute his statements (or the other's statements)? You saying they did their homework doesn't really add to anything. If anything, you look like the guy at the bar who has had too much to drink. Constantly arguing with no substance.

Also, one of the Bronco engineers did bring up the value of an SFA in an interview and explained why they ended up opting for an IFS...You can look for that if you'd like.

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Yep, I get what you're saying. Makes sense to me, even if my understanding is limited.

Here's something I think would be really cool and helpful - being able to have occasional forums with Toyota 4Runner engineering and marketing. For example, the 5-speed vs 6-speed question - thinking about it objectively, there have to be real and good reasons why they settled on the drivetrain they did. Contrary to the opinions of many on here, they didn't do it just to piss people off, or to be cheap (although it needs to be accepted that saving money is a real and valid reason), or because they're lazy (really, people think this), or because they "don't know how". Seriously? Most manufacturers know how to do just about everything. They simply have to weigh every piece and process and fit it into an attractive package at an attractive price that they can ALSO profit from.

I think the lead FJ engineer attended one of the FJ Summits and was fielding questions from enthusiast. That would be a cool experience to have with the 4runner engineers!

 

[Muff Muff]

Player 10,000 has entered the game...

I think the biggest issue isn't with what Toyota is putting out, it's with expectations of what the 4Runner is/isn't and what it should be. It isn't a rock crawler, and Toyota didn't intend for it to be. To me, Toyota's intent with the 4Runner is to provide a street vehicle that can get you through mild to medium off road situations. It's an overland (cliche term, I know) or expedition vehicle, not a rock crawler.

This video provides good insight on tire selection for overland/expedition type vehicles, which I would personally tend to agree with. The obstacles Toyota had in mind when equipping the 4Runner don't really require 35" tires, a solid front axle, or a front locker. Granted, it is possible to fit them, but it just wasn't meant for them.

Why International Overlanders DON'T USE HUGE TIRES - YouTube

TLDR: If you want to fit big tires, get a Jeep or new Bronco. The 4Runner's intended purpose doesn't really require big tires. If people were honest with themselves and what they wanted, they'd realize that maybe the 4Runner isn't the right vehicle for their intended use.

 

[mteolus]

Finally, while independent suspension used to mean limited wheel travel, Ford says the Bronco's suspension has 17 percent more travel than the Wrangler.

Why the 2021 Ford Bronco Has Independent Front Suspension

Yea stock (probably a Sport too), but after a lift you can get way more travel out of a SFA. Jeeps are made for the hardcore off-roader, the Bronco is good but simply won't be an off-road beast like the Wrangler. Ford is betting this won't matter since 99% of even Jeep owners just do mild or middle of the road off roading.

 

[TacoRunn0517]

I do hope that those who are fed up with Toyota's ways really do jump ship. I'd be curious to see how things would and would enjoy a real time case study.